7.1 placement HELP !!!

[KLAP]

Hi there !!

I own a nice azz 5.1 Dolby/ DTS decoder system for my 14ft X 16ft room, and i've placed the speakers quite well...
I'm plannin to jump to 7.1 since the newer movie tracked feature Dolby EX and DTS-ES things..for that I'll get a Dolby EX/DTS ES decoder system with 7.1 speaker setup..
But my Problem is that my seating (bed) is jst along the rear wall...for that matter i'm wondering where can i place the REAR channel satellites...directly over my head ?? or under my bed ( LOL )..
there has to be some solution...
please help...coz this would let me finalise my decision about the upgrade!!

thanx!!

 

[Az B]

Ideally, you need to move the seating out from the wall. It will sound better whether it's 2 channel, 5 channel, or whatever. The rear speakers should be at least a couple feet behind you, although I have heard of some people in your situation that put the speakers just behind the seating facing straight up. I've never tried it, so if it sucks don't blame me! But it's worth a try!

 

[KLAP]

Still not sure..

Thanx neways Az!

What u said dont seem to solve my situation though..coz if i do move my sitting say 2 feet ahead...and put the rear ones along side wall..i doubt it'll produce the ideal THX effect...in 7.1 setup! as for 5.1 it does produce the effect even if i have my sitting alonside wall like right now, and i can experience my curent 5.1 setup to its awesome Dts effect!
The question remains the same..wat bout 7.1 ?? in the same sitting arrangement..if i put the speakers over my head or below...does it do..or neother better solution..
Please come up with something guys..i know there are lots'o Audioholics here !!
thanx

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[Unregistered]

Experiment with placement and see what you like. Nobody can tell you whether it will sound good or not. If it were me, I'd stick with 5.1.

 

[markw]

Simply put, you don't have the room for 7.1

If you want to throw money away, fine, but don't expect miracles. FWIW that EX/ES stuff you see references a 6.1 system. not a 7.1 system. There ain't no movies recorded in 7.1

And, unless you can put that 6th speaker behind you, it won't be worth it either. You're better off saving that $$ until it can be put to some good use. I'd stick with 5.1 for the time being.

 

[Az B]

Sorry pal, but like my dad used to say, "You can't make chicken salad out of chicken sh!t".

I'd stick to 5.1 if I were you.

 

[Yamaman]

Also a 14 x 16 room isn't big enough to enjoy the benefits of anything beyond 5.1. My HT area in my basement (still constructing) is about the same size, and I'm sticking to 5.1- more than adequate.

 

[KLAP]

Well its gone be 7.1 ruling someday!

Hiya!

Thanx to all who replied...first of all !!
but mates, the speed at which this all digital sound stuff is growing..it ain't gone be tooo far when 5.1 will be a "talk of the past"...since all the upcoming releases are gone feature Extended surrounds !!

As for the money...its not a prob for me so that issue is not the question..

All i ask is if somehow i could experience the extended surrounds is same sitting positions..by either hangin em facing down from the wall..or like placing down and facing'em up, something like it may be i dunno..

kindly help !!

thanx !

 

[Unregistered]

So you are looking for a definitive answer. Yes you can do whatever you want, but nobody can assure you that it will meet your expectations. Why don't you use some old speakers and try positioning them behind the couch facing up or on shelves on the wall and see if you like it.

 

[plhart]

In a situation such as yours the recommendation is to use two dipoles for the left and right side surrounds and place them forward of your listening position, at least 3 feet from the rear wall. If at all possible angle the center "dead spot of the dipoles back toward you. ITU 5.1 recommendations allow for a minimum 80 degrees back from the center channel zero degree position. Place these dipoles ~2 feet over your head. If you have to go under the 80 degree minimum for placement, so be it.

For the two rear 7.1 channels use either two monopoles or two dipoles and separate them a minimum of 1 meter and also ~2 feet above your head.

In this set-up your set-up distances on the receiver set-up menu will be critical as will the placement of all four surrounds since they are so close to your listening position and the Left-Center-Rights are so far away, relatively.

 

[junkilo]

But my Problem is that my seating (bed) is jst along the rear wall...for that matter i'm wondering where can i place the REAR channel satellites...directly over my head ?? or under my bed ( LOL )..

based on your criteria your only option for realistic use of 6.1/7.1 is going to be right above your head. I know its not popular but you'd be suprised how well it can sound on the right programming with proper calibration and acoustic work in the room. just be sure to do your homework on the calibration and dampening.

 

[KLAP]

Hiya all!

Thanx alot to all of you for ur very knowledgable replies...especially " plhart " !! Below is the current placement of my 5.1 speakers :

I'm not sure bout monopoles or dipoles..since what i have "Creative 5.1 5700 Digital dolby/DTS Decoder System" are just 5.1 kick azz speakers with real crisp sound and thundering and patchy Bass...and thats all i care about so never got into wat are these "mono or dipoles" !

what I'm plannin to get now are Creative's gigantic 700 RMS GigaWorks s750 7.1 THX certified speakers with their DDTS-100 Dolby EX and DTS ES decoder system, and as far as i know these also aren't ne dipoles etc.
So, as suggested by Mr. Plhart bout positing dipoles n monopoles, i dont get the idea very clearly, or if u could kindly guide me on basis of My room's dimensions and sitting conditions as shown above (If image is not visible..click this link http://img16.exs.cx/img16/4889/14662.jpg ) and the system am going to buy i.e Creative GigaWorks 7.1 , it would be really appreciated !!

Thanx n Best Regards !

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[Unregistered]

So, as suggested by Mr. Plhart bout positing dipoles n monopoles, i dont get the idea very clearly, or if u could kindly guide me on basis of My room's dimensions and sitting conditions as shown above

No matter how many replies you get, you always end with the exact same statement. You've been guided to the best of anyone's ability, now its time for you to make your own decision.

 

[JohnA]

My $.02

Hey there,

There is something that might work for you. MTX has new Home Theater
in-ceiling Bi/Di-pole speakers (yes that's right...in ceiling), as well as some angled in-ceiling speakers. This would fit your situation nicely. They should be out the middle of November. So if you can wait, it might be worth it.

 

[Mudcat]

Do you have another room in the apartment you can make your watching/Listening room, or are you in a typical NYC apartment (5 floor walk up- 3 rooms including the bathroom and kitchenette).

Where is the door?

Can you reverse all the electronics? Put the TV and center speaker over the bed (assuming it's a flat screen), FL and FR speakers on stands next to the night tables, L and R surrounds on the walls even or just past the foot of the bed, rear surrounds where the L and R fronts are shown now. Have chairs at the foot of the bed which you can move to watch the TV. Thereby having room behind you for the rear surrounds.

Your drawing does not indicate where the electronics are, but with what I provided, they can be anywhere convenient. Speaker cables can be shoved under the carpet or along the base board, video cable to the TV won't be that long.

Or, you can just add the two chairs at the foot of the bed, move the current surrounds closer together and call them the rear surrounds, add two new surrounds at the walls even with the new chairs.

Or, you can dump the bed and get a fouton or sleeper sofa that you can move away from the walls when you are watching a movie (kind of puts a damper on those romantic moments when you need a bed there and now ).

 

[plhart]

KLAP-

Many of the posters are giving you the exactly correct recommendations. Your room is too small for 7.1. The reality of your situation is that a 5.1 set-up will work best for you. You do, however, need 7 monopole speakers (like your Creatives which have only a single woofer and tweeter on a single baffle, hence monopole) to make your 5.1 system perform optimally. Here's how>

Move your current set of rear speakers 3 feet minimum away from the rear wall and face them toward the rear wall at about 5.6 to 6 feet height. The Creatives I believe have a standard 1/4-20 screw mount so you can mount them to the sidewall on a Panavise-style swivel mount.

Now take your second set of Creative mono pole surrounds and mount them back-to-back with the first set. Face the new speakers forward on another pair of Panavise-style mounts. I believe these speakers are 4 ohm so you'll have to wire each pair of surrounds in series with each other to bring the load up to 8 ohms and make it easy for your receiver to drive. You will now, with these pairs in series with each other, have only one set of wires going back to the receiver. Hook them to surround left and surround right channels. NOT rear surround channels.

Now, most important! Get some type of foam headboard directly behind the bed to absorb all the slap echoes you'll get from the front center channel. The slap eches will totally mess up the vocal intelligibility of the center and make you strain to follow the dialog. This foam needs to be a minimum of 2" thick. It must be covered with a loose weave acoustical cloth which will let the sound waves penetrate through to the foam so the foam can do it's work of absorption.

Don't worry about not having "7.1 surround". As other posters have correctly stated, 7.1 only exists as hardware for home theaters. And "7.1 home theater receivers are actually decoding only 6.1 movie soundtracks into two mono soundtracks. This is done because a 6.1 sound track in a movie theater is spread across several mono surrounds mounted on the back wall of the theater. The now "faux dipole" set-up which has just been described for your 5.1 attempts to do the same in your small room as a movie theater does with several monopole surround speaker placed along the right and left wall and appropriately time delayed. And that is to give a feeling of immersion and envelopment.

Lastly, with the "faux dipole" 5.1 set-up explained above you are NOT missing that sixth channel. The Dolby or DTS circuitry automatically folds that channel back into the 5.1 format for playback so you are not misssing hearing anything that was on the 6.1 soundtrack. This is how the formats can continue to expand but still maintain backward compatability.

 

[TheAudioCARtist]

Time allignment settings only in the car????

I do car audio,and the options of setting time alignment are mandatory in the car,i can make up for some unbelievable limitations..
i can set up a car where you can close your eyes,and picture the scene(what song was that?anyway..)..
i always tell people about 'swordfish',at any point in the movie,like when they are negotiating,and john travolta and friends are sitting at that table,you can place yourself at the camera,and when the person blows up,you KNOW that bb went through the glass to the front left,whizzed right through your head,then exited the bus to your rear right!oh.. and the helicopter,as it hovers above!
i actually get goosebumps thinking about it!!
anyway,
i am FAR more familiar with car 5.1,but the high end pioneer unit comes with a mic,you strap it to your drivers headrest(i space it off the headrest 3-5",that is where the center of your head is,and it gets a better rear reading,the headrest doesn't block the mic..),then you put it into self setup mode,close the door,and you can make out some various pink noise from various speakers,it does this for about 10 mins,then at the end you get a time-aligned,and equalized system..it should be tweaked from there,but for 90% its great(as with any car system,the bass ends up lacking a little,i usually turn up the sub,that makes up for the ambient stuff while driving) but in a home,it should end up perfect!
now,again like i said,i am making a HUGE assumption here,but 'look' around the menus,i would think you would find something somewhere!?!?
I saw someone allude to a setup,this and my auto experience led me to this post..
i wish i remembered the " to ms conversion,what 5000'/mile,700 fps for sound?(pretty close anyway,i just figure it out when i need to..i've only done 3 of the pioneer systems w/time alignment..and only 1 of these people knew enough to actually CARE about more than what their buddies thought!(of having a tv,not the quality of the surround!!)
i guess i am very curious about this,because i just started my own business,and up until now,i haven't had the money for a home surround like what i have done in some vehicles..i tell people all the time,if i put 10,000 into a car,i would put it up against 99% of home systems valued @100,000 +-(yes i have heard a few of these,like at least 15-18 of them 100,000+,and have heard 1 1,000,000+)
anyway..please post on the time alignment options,as to what type of units have this ability..
my bedroom(the place for the surround system) is in the same predicament!
thanks!!

 

[plhart]

All Dolby Digital chipsets whether designed for home or car must have some sort of set-up routine, usually a rotating pink noise signal, in order to set proper channel playback levels and appropriate time delays.

A vehicle situation is quite different than a home environment because the relative placements of the speakers in relation to the driver or front passengers are a known set of distances (relatively) no matter what the vehicle type. We're talking about a few inches width difference between a small narrow cabin like that of a Honda Civic versus, say, a Hummer H2. Distances to rear speakers will of course vary among all the different vehicles from small sedans to large SUVs but these distances are still managable for today's sophistocated DSP-driven auto car set-ups.

In addition to only a few known variable widths, heights and depths (interior lengths) another factor in making the auto-frequency EQs work well in a vehicle is that the acoustical environment is pretty much known also. And with all its broken up (non-flat and therefore diffusive) and absorptive surfaces a vehicle usually starts out in far better shape acoustically than a home theater room.

Lastly, all vehicles have known ambiance noise levels at cruise. The variation is from the low 60s to the mid 70s in dB level so the designers, knowing that they've got a much narrower dynamic range to work with (than a quiet home theater), can use a bit of psychoacoustic knowledge to boost certain frequencies to give that "hearing the singer's breath" impression of detail.

Good thinking on keeping the set-up mic a few inches away from the headrest. It would be interesting if you could get a second mic for your next couple of set-ups and try this>

Get a dummy styrofoam head and put the mics in the dummy's ear positions. Parallel the mics and feed them simultaneously into the head unit during set-up. This set-up will put what's called the head related transfer function (HRTF) into play. Listen to that set-up for a couple of days and then try the set-up again as you normally do, with the single mic. Let us know if you hear any difference.

The speed of sound is 1130 feet/sec at 68 degrees Farenheit at sea level.

 

[Leprkon]

stupid question

why would you be buying a 7.1 receiver NOW to be able to use it on disks that are coming LATER ??

Most current (if not all) 7.1 systems are using a processing algorithm to ghost 5.1 into 7.1. If they ever truly come out with a 7.1 disk, the receiver you get NOW will most likely not function with the upgraded audio standard (or worse, the disk will have an optional 5.1 sountrack that you would then ghost into 7.1). At best, you would have to get a firmware/flashware upgrade to the receiver.

Save what you got now for something that will work with the new stuff. Given the space restrictions you have and the current state of the art in home sound, you simply aren't helping yourself by buying now for this specific purpose.

If you don't like your receiver or it doesn;t work well or well dammit ya simply want a new one, that's fine, but don't kid yourself thinking you will have true 7.1 when everything is said and done.

 

[mtrycrafts]

why would you be buying a 7.1 receiver NOW to be able to use it on disks that are coming LATER ??

Most current (if not all) 7.1 systems are using a processing algorithm to ghost 5.1 into 7.1. If they ever truly come out with a 7.1 disk, the receiver you get NOW will most likely not function with the upgraded audio standard (or worse, the disk will have an optional 5.1 sountrack that you would then ghost into 7.1). At best, you would have to get a firmware/flashware upgrade to the receiver.

Save what you got now for something that will work with the new stuff. Given the space restrictions you have and the current state of the art in home sound, you simply aren't helping yourself by buying now for this specific purpose.

If you don't like your receiver or it doesn;t work well or well dammit ya simply want a new one, that's fine, but don't kid yourself thinking you will have true 7.1 when everything is said and done.

The DD rear center is so far inprinted as the center fromt was in pro logic, matrixed. That is what is extracted from those encoded discs but does create one if not so encoded.

The two center rear are mono spaced apart in larger rear walls to fill in the rear center.