6kwatt Sub with dual 21" Drivers Costs $100k: Are they Insane?

S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Ha ha! I just read a YouTube comment that said "I'll bet SVS could do that for under $8,000..."
For $8k you could get four PC-4000s, which would have a serious performance advantage in deep bass and maybe equal it in mid bass. And would also be a system that a single person could carry and set up without needing a forklift.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
For $8k you could get four PC-4000s, which would have a serious performance advantage in deep bass and maybe equal it in mid bass. And would also be a system that a single person could carry and set up without needing a forklift.
And for the difference in price you could improve the acoustics in the room quite a lot, I guess, and have a much better audio experience. Perhaps even a new room, for that matter.

These overtly expensive things I label as "Penis extender for older males".
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
And for the difference in price you could improve the acoustics in the room quite a lot, I guess, and have a much better audio experience. Perhaps even a new room, for that matter.

These overtly expensive things I label as "Penis extender for older males".
I believe the term is, "compensation." ;)
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
I think I could blow the windows out of my large room with 4 of those!
Once again I find myself disappointed by the lack of the Rock Horn icon in our "smileys."
1563994962354.png

(You'd think I'd have that bookmarked, already!) :p
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Once again I find myself disappointed by the lack of the Rock Horn icon in our "smileys."
View attachment 30263
(You'd think I'd have that bookmarked, already!) :p
I can't remember who it was here that actually experienced a little structural damage to a doorframe leading to a set of stairs. @AcuDefTechGuy pops into my head but I'm not sure. Maybe he'll know who I'm talking about in any case.

Anyone have any good stories of blowing out windows or vibrating a house apart with ridiculous subwoofage? lol
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
I can't remember who it was here that actually experienced a little structural damage to a doorframe leading to a set of stairs. @AcuDefTechGuy pops into my head but I'm not sure. Maybe he'll know who I'm talking about in any case.

Anyone have any good stories of blowing out windows or vibrating a house apart with ridiculous subwoofage? lol
I don't think I damaged anything, but I did play with my subs a bit when I hooked them up. *shifty-eyed grin
I used Bass Mekaniks Power Tools as a source for test tones... and the 20Hz at 50% gain caused a housequake. *grins maniacally
Scared the holy FiretrUCK out of me at first! I jumped when I didn't hear anything but the structrure vibrating!!!
 
J

jeffca

Junior Audioholic
What a load of BS! And a tremendous waste of energy and material.

The woofer cone's mass is almost a pound? And it's milled from a 66lb. billet? That makes no sense.

Some of the statements made by the company are just plain lies.

Listen, I get the bit about making the cabinets as acoustically inert as possible.

Just so you know, that bit about eliminating standing waves in the sub cabinet is also BS. You can't have a standing wave inside a sub cabinet unless that sub cabinet is the size of a room. For a cabinet this size, you can have standing waves around 500Hz or so, but not in in the frequencies around 50Hz or below. It's too small... that's the just elementary physics of sound waves

The ideal subwoofer has huge radiating surfaces that have no mass and unlimited, linear excursion and it weighs next to nothing. Of course, that's not possible so dealing with what is possible with a "hyper-sub" in the real world, one of the best designs is Paradigm's Persona Sub.

The Persona has 6 eight inch drivers, almost 2kW of power, the cabinet is designed to be vibration canceling and it has ARC room correction. It's flat to 19Hz and with room gain can extend to 12Hz. Those 8" drivers have a fraction of the moving mass of this YG monstrosity so their ability to start and stop is a magnitude or more greater than a 1lb., 21 inch sub driver.

DSP is great, but it can't solve the problems that a 1lb. sub driver brings to a design.

Also, each of these subs weighs almost 250lbs. So, to make the stacked super-sub, you need a forklift or a crane. Or 4 people that are in awesome shape and hope that they don't drop your $55K top sub cab.

This design is as absurd and imbecilic as that Wilson Chronosonic debacle.

So you want killer sub-bass in you system and don't want to spend $220K? Two suggestions:

• Six Paradigm Persona Subs - two stacked in each front corner and one in each rear corner. You'll have about the same woofer radiating area as a pair of these stacked YG behemoths, have automated room correction, much smoother bass coverage due to the fact that you are spacing your woofers throughout the room and you can install them with just 2 average, but fit people... no cranes or forklifts needed. The subs are 110lbs. each. Total cost: $39K. Total RMS system power: 10.2kW

• Want to spend even less money? Get a dozen Rythmik Audio L12 servo subs. They offer no room correction, but, owning 4 of them and using a pair under each KEF LS50 in my stereo, I can attest that these things are killer. Are the cabinets super inert? No, but they are pretty good and, the more of these little wonders you add to your system, the less each one needs to work. And, then, the less each cabinet will vibrate. The big benefit they bring is the servo control of the low mass sub driver. It works and works incredibly well. Hell, let's go nuts and put 4 stacked in each room corner so we have sixteen 12" servo subs. The bass extension is dependent upon the subs settings, but you can easily get to 18Hz with a ton of headroom and the bass is incredibly defined with no lag or overhang/ringing. Total cost: $560 each x 16 = $6,960. Each sub weighs a bit over 50lbs. so installation is a easily done by one average person. Total RMS power: 4.8 kW.

Both of these systems I described will offer more clean bass than any person with even a large listening room can use. As described, the Paradigms would offer the equivalent radiating surface of six 18" sub drivers. The Rythmik system would give you the radiating area of eight 18" drivers.

There is nothing lust-worthy about the Wilson Chronosonic or this idiotic YG sub system. They are designed for people with more money than brains.

It's a shame you are giving this product any press at all.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
What a load of BS! And a tremendous waste of energy and material.

The woofer cone's mass is almost a pound? And it's milled from a 66lb. billet? That makes no sense.

Some of the statements made by the company are just plain lies.

Listen, I get the bit about making the cabinets as acoustically inert as possible.

Just so you know, that bit about eliminating standing waves in the sub cabinet is also BS. You can't have a standing wave inside a sub cabinet unless that sub cabinet is the size of a room. For a cabinet this size, you can have standing waves around 500Hz or so, but not in in the frequencies around 50Hz or below. It's too small... that's the just elementary physics of sound waves

The ideal subwoofer has huge radiating surfaces that have no mass and unlimited, linear excursion and it weighs next to nothing. Of course, that's not possible so dealing with what is possible with a "hyper-sub" in the real world, one of the best designs is Paradigm's Persona Sub.

The Persona has 6 eight inch drivers, almost 2kW of power, the cabinet is designed to be vibration canceling and it has ARC room correction. It's flat to 19Hz and with room gain can extend to 12Hz. Those 8" drivers have a fraction of the moving mass of this YG monstrosity so their ability to start and stop is a magnitude or more greater than a 1lb., 21 inch sub driver.

DSP is great, but it can't solve the problems that a 1lb. sub driver brings to a design.

Also, each of these subs weighs almost 250lbs. So, to make the stacked super-sub, you need a forklift or a crane. Or 4 people that are in awesome shape and hope that they don't drop your $55K top sub cab.

This design is as absurd and imbecilic as that Wilson Chronosonic debacle.

So you want killer sub-bass in you system and don't want to spend $220K? Two suggestions:

• Six Paradigm Persona Subs - two stacked in each front corner and one in each rear corner. You'll have about the same woofer radiating area as a pair of these stacked YG behemoths, have automated room correction, much smoother bass coverage due to the fact that you are spacing your woofers throughout the room and you can install them with just 2 average, but fit people... no cranes or forklifts needed. The subs are 110lbs. each. Total cost: $39K. Total RMS system power: 10.2kW

• Want to spend even less money? Get a dozen Rythmik Audio L12 servo subs. They offer no room correction, but, owning 4 of them and using a pair under each KEF LS50 in my stereo, I can attest that these things are killer. Are the cabinets super inert? No, but they are pretty good and, the more of these little wonders you add to your system, the less each one needs to work. And, then, the less each cabinet will vibrate. The big benefit they bring is the servo control of the low mass sub driver. It works and works incredibly well. Hell, let's go nuts and put 4 stacked in each room corner so we have sixteen 12" servo subs. The bass extension is dependent upon the subs settings, but you can easily get to 18Hz with a ton of headroom and the bass is incredibly defined with no lag or overhang/ringing. Total cost: $560 each x 16 = $6,960. Each sub weighs a bit over 50lbs. so installation is a easily done by one average person. Total RMS power: 4.8 kW.

Both of these systems I described will offer more clean bass than any person with even a large listening room can use. As described, the Paradigms would offer the equivalent radiating surface of six 18" sub drivers. The Rythmik system would give you the radiating area of eight 18" drivers.

There is nothing lust-worthy about the Wilson Chronosonic or this idiotic YG sub system. They are designed for people with more money than brains.

It's a shame you are giving this product any press at all.
You aren't wrong. This sub is an abomination from the get-go.
I think you're a bit misconstruing author's intentions. AH is still the same site which shamed Lexicon DVD to use very thinly rebranded Oppo. No one here and I mean no one is going to pay anywhere near the money they are asking for subs or for that matter entire audio system. I was joking about Magico Qsubs before.
SVS, HSU, Rythmic, PSA are all going to be much better subs, that goes without saying.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I can't remember who it was here that actually experienced a little structural damage to a doorframe leading to a set of stairs. @AcuDefTechGuy pops into my head but I'm not sure.
I've never lived in a house with stairs, so probably not me. :D
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
What a load of BS! And a tremendous waste of energy and material.

The woofer cone's mass is almost a pound? And it's milled from a 66lb. billet? That makes no sense.

Some of the statements made by the company are just plain lies.

Listen, I get the bit about making the cabinets as acoustically inert as possible.

Just so you know, that bit about eliminating standing waves in the sub cabinet is also BS. You can't have a standing wave inside a sub cabinet unless that sub cabinet is the size of a room. For a cabinet this size, you can have standing waves around 500Hz or so, but not in in the frequencies around 50Hz or below. It's too small... that's the just elementary physics of sound waves

The ideal subwoofer has huge radiating surfaces that have no mass and unlimited, linear excursion and it weighs next to nothing. Of course, that's not possible so dealing with what is possible with a "hyper-sub" in the real world, one of the best designs is Paradigm's Persona Sub.

The Persona has 6 eight inch drivers, almost 2kW of power, the cabinet is designed to be vibration canceling and it has ARC room correction. It's flat to 19Hz and with room gain can extend to 12Hz. Those 8" drivers have a fraction of the moving mass of this YG monstrosity so their ability to start and stop is a magnitude or more greater than a 1lb., 21 inch sub driver.

DSP is great, but it can't solve the problems that a 1lb. sub driver brings to a design.

Also, each of these subs weighs almost 250lbs. So, to make the stacked super-sub, you need a forklift or a crane. Or 4 people that are in awesome shape and hope that they don't drop your $55K top sub cab.

This design is as absurd and imbecilic as that Wilson Chronosonic debacle.

So you want killer sub-bass in you system and don't want to spend $220K? Two suggestions:

• Six Paradigm Persona Subs - two stacked in each front corner and one in each rear corner. You'll have about the same woofer radiating area as a pair of these stacked YG behemoths, have automated room correction, much smoother bass coverage due to the fact that you are spacing your woofers throughout the room and you can install them with just 2 average, but fit people... no cranes or forklifts needed. The subs are 110lbs. each. Total cost: $39K. Total RMS system power: 10.2kW

• Want to spend even less money? Get a dozen Rythmik Audio L12 servo subs. They offer no room correction, but, owning 4 of them and using a pair under each KEF LS50 in my stereo, I can attest that these things are killer. Are the cabinets super inert? No, but they are pretty good and, the more of these little wonders you add to your system, the less each one needs to work. And, then, the less each cabinet will vibrate. The big benefit they bring is the servo control of the low mass sub driver. It works and works incredibly well. Hell, let's go nuts and put 4 stacked in each room corner so we have sixteen 12" servo subs. The bass extension is dependent upon the subs settings, but you can easily get to 18Hz with a ton of headroom and the bass is incredibly defined with no lag or overhang/ringing. Total cost: $560 each x 16 = $6,960. Each sub weighs a bit over 50lbs. so installation is a easily done by one average person. Total RMS power: 4.8 kW.

Both of these systems I described will offer more clean bass than any person with even a large listening room can use. As described, the Paradigms would offer the equivalent radiating surface of six 18" sub drivers. The Rythmik system would give you the radiating area of eight 18" drivers.

There is nothing lust-worthy about the Wilson Chronosonic or this idiotic YG sub system. They are designed for people with more money than brains.

It's a shame you are giving this product any press at all.
The cone or moving mass weight doesn't really have to be an issue if the motor is powerful enough. Take, for example, your Paradigm Persona sub. The only thing that matters is the moving mass with respect to the force that is pushing it. Now in the Persona sub you have six 8" woofers each with their own VC and former. That is going to add up to a lot of weight. I wouldn't be surprised if it added up to a pound or more. But each has a very powerful motor to drive it, so it should still have a very good response. The same could be true of this YG Acoustics sub. Look at the large diameters of the sub drivers from Funk Audio or Stereo Integrity. They do have good responses, but doubtlessly the moving mass is quite substantial. Weight can also be an advantage in a subwoofer's moving mass in that it lowers the resonant frequency. That, of course, comes at the expense of upper band sensitivity, but if your target frequency range is 16 Hz to 30 Hz, who cares.
 
J

jeffca

Junior Audioholic
Hey, I'm not flaming Audioholics. If they offered an editorial comment calling this insane and ridiculous product for what it is, I'd be there with them. Since they didn't, I'm just saying that it's a shame that they didn't. There is no scam here like the Lexicon/Oppo debacle. My thought is that just running the press release is kinda lame given the absurdity of the product. Just my opinion and no one has to agree with it. I'm not going to stop coming to the site. I'm not indignant.

Cheers, baby!
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Hey, I'm not flaming Audioholics. If they offered an editorial comment calling this insane and ridiculous product for what it is, I'd be there with them. Since they didn't, I'm just saying that it's a shame that they didn't. There is no scam here like the Lexicon/Oppo debacle. My thought is that just running the press release is kinda lame given the absurdity of the product. Just my opinion and no one has to agree with it. I'm not going to stop coming to the site. I'm not indignant.

Cheers, baby!
I don't think anyone thinks you're flaming anyone, it's just that the title of this thread has "Are They Insane?" right in it. The title of the review has "?!?" after the price. To me that's pointing toward the absurdity of the price point before you even dig into the review...
 
J

jeffca

Junior Audioholic
The cone or moving mass weight doesn't really have to be an issue if the motor is powerful enough. Take, for example, your Paradigm Persona sub. The only thing that matters is the moving mass with respect to the force that is pushing it. Now in the Persona sub you have six 8" woofers each with their own VC and former. That is going to add up to a lot of weight. I wouldn't be surprised if it added up to a pound or more. But each has a very powerful motor to drive it, so it should still have a very good response. The same could be true of this YG Acoustics sub. Look at the large diameters of the sub drivers from Funk Audio or Stereo Integrity. They do have good responses, but doubtlessly the moving mass is quite substantial. Weight can also be an advantage in a subwoofer's moving mass in that it lowers the resonant frequency. That, of course, comes at the expense of upper band sensitivity, but if your target frequency range is 16 Hz to 30 Hz, who cares.

Wow, do you have a bunch of things wrong:

• Six 8" woofers give the response of one 8" woofer, but with 6 times the excursion, 6 times the power handling, 6 times the heat dissipation and 1/6 the distortion and non-linearities one 8" woofer doing the same work. These are approximations, but they work out to be fairly true.
• The cumulative weight of the voice coils, formers cones and air load is a non factor... they act independently for each driver, not as a summed group
• 8" subs tend to have a moving mass including air load around 3 oz. That is substantially less than this sub so if you are trying to tell me that six, well-designed 8" subs will be as slow as the best 18" driver, sorry, you are wrong
• Once you start getting upwards of 18 inches for a sub driver, the size of the magnet being able to control the driver has already started diminishing. That's just a fact. Sorry.
• Moving mass is never advantageous when you are designing a loudspeaker driver. It is a necessary evil that can be utilized when engineering a real world design, but it is not ideal.
• Six, well designed, 8" sub drivers will eviscerate any 18" sub driver any day of the week
• The lowest note on most instruments is a low B which is about 31Hz. You can go even lower, a super low E is 20.5Hz, but nothing but a pipe organ or synth can hit that (OK, John Paul Jones' crazy bass string things can do that, but, hey, those are not normal as is he... in the greatest way!)

Bottom line is this:
• A phalanx of small subs is better than one huge sub any day
• The reason there aren't more subs like Paradigm's is the expense, plain and simple
 
Last edited:
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Wow, do you have a bunch of things wrong:

• Six 8" woofers give the response of one 8" woofer, but with 6 times the excursion, 6 times the power handling, 6 times the heat dissipation and 1/6 the distortion and non-linearities one 8" woofer doing the same work. These are approximations, but they work out to be fairly true.
• The cumulative weight of the voice coils, formers cones and air load is a non factor... they act independently for each driver, not as a summed group
• 8" subs tend to have a moving mass including air load around 3 oz. That is substantially less than this sub so if you are trying to tell me that six, well-designed 8" subs will be as slow as the best 18" driver, sorry, you are wrong
• Once you start getting upwards of 18 inches for a sub driver, the size of the magnet being able to control the driver has already started diminishing. That's just a fact. Sorry.
• Moving mass is never advantageous when you are designing a loudspeaker driver. It is a necessary evil that can be utilized when engineering a real world design, but it is not ideal.
• Six, well designed, 8" sub drivers will eviscerate any 18" sub driver any day of the week
• The lowest note on most instruments is a low B which is about 31Hz. You can go even lower, a super low E is 20.5Hz, but nothing but a pipe organ or synth can hit that (OK, John Paul Jones' crazy bass string things can do that, but, hey, those are not normal as is he... in the greatest way!)

Bottom line is this:
• A phalanx of small subs is better than one huge sub any day
• The reason there aren't more subs like Paradigm's is the expense, plain and simple
8" is just not a great size for subwoofer drivers. The problem is there is not much room for suspension in such a tight basket, so the Fs of 8" drivers tends to be high, and they tend to be very inefficient outside of midbass frequencies. As far as the loss of ability of a magnet to control an 18", I don't know where you are getting that. There are tons of examples of well-controlled 18" drivers and even larger cone diameters. I don't disagree with the idea that a bunch of small subs can make for a better system than a single large sub, only for the reason that they can achieve a flatter response by smoothing out room modes. There is definitely no technical advantage that an 8" driver has over larger cone diameters in subwoofer band frequencies. And I don't think that it is correct that there aren't more subs like Paradigms because of expense. I think the real reason is because it is easier and better to just have one large driver in an enclosure than six small ones.
 

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