$5,500 Denon AVR-5308CI vs. $700 Emotiva UMC-1

[lsiberian]

So because your player has handshake issues with your projector it is somehow a fault of the receiver? That makes zero sense.


If the source is digital and you are converting it to analog it is inferior. Granted, the difference may not be noticeable at 10feet away.


So it sounds like the problem is your projector or your non v1.3HDMI players. I would assume these players all have components out, so why not just use those if 'downgrading' your signal isn't an issue?

Honestly, not seeing why you are faulting a receiver when the problem is the compatibility of your projector with older versions of HDMI. Maybe you should make a thread that says 'My $7000 Projector sucks because it doesn't handshake well with older versions of HDMI'. Just a thought...

You are making a lot of poor assumptions.

1. You assume handshake issues are caused by the PJ. This is doubtful. It is most likely the receiver having handshake issues.

with the items mentioned.

2. There is no difference between digital and analog signal quality wise. In fact they are using the same thing(electrons) to carry their signal. And HDMI is actually worse at carrying a signal vast distances than Component cables. HDMI was invented for copy protection and simplicity not for it's superiority to component and digital coaxial.

And actually all signals are eventually converted to analog. Sound is analog and so is the picture. so does it matter where this conversion occurs?

3. He paid 1000s of dollars for his receiver so he can whine if it is missing a feature he wants.

However. I think your only option is to pass the signal to the receiver with component. I suspect the problem is between your receiver and the device and not the PJ and the receiver. All my HDMI issues have been in between the receiver and the device.

However this may reduce your SQ if your HD-DVD are the new formats. But tis life.

 

[lsiberian]

Newb? My post count has hardly anything to do with my knowledge of audio/video.


I do too. I just think his blame is misplaced.


So you are claiming going from a digital source and remaining digital through to the output is not better than going from a digital source and converting it to analog one more time then back to digital? And sorry, but last I checked 1080p via HDMI is better than 1080i via component. Newb indeed.

No need to be defensive. Your comments if asserted true require some support.

Unsupported statements that go against what is considered logical and the common experience of many forum users does tend to show a lack of understanding. Of course we all say dumb things and non of us knows everything. In fact I've been wrong on numerous occasions and consider myself a newbie. Many of us are engineers and have had torturous courses in the physics behind all this stuff. Based on what we understand we make conclusions that are suitable for the person.

I imagine the OP is simply pointing out a weakness in the Denon that he/she has already resolved. Considering this person is consistently helping people on this forum. I'm thankful for him pointing out the differences. Since I'm a PJ owner.

I'm sure you already understand that Digital doesn't always mean better. And is simply a reference to a type of signal(data)

 

[Warlan]

You are making a lot of poor assumptions.

1. You assume handshake issues are caused by the PJ. This is doubtful. It is most likely the receiver having handshake issues.

with the items mentioned.

As written he said the projector had issues, not the receiver.

2. There is no difference between digital and analog signal quality wise. In fact they are using the same thing(electrons) to carry their signal. And HDMI is actually worse at carrying a signal vast distances than Component cables. HDMI was invented for copy protection and simplicity not for it's superiority to component and digital coaxial.

I never said the bandwith was the problem. It's the conversion back and forth between digital and analog that is the issue. And there is a difference between analog and quality signal wise-one simply needs to compare VGA vs DVI on a computer. Whether one is better than the other depends entirely on the source.

And actually all signals are eventually converted to analog. Sound is analog and so is the picture. so does it matter where this conversion occurs?

It matters how often it is converted. We are talking video here, not audio given it's an issue between his projector and dvd players. I could have sworn LCD and DLP were all digital formats. Are you suggesting a digital signal via HDMI is converted to an analog signal within a DLP or LCD display?

3. He paid 1000s of dollars for his receiver so he can whine if it is missing a feature he wants.

We are now promoting whining because something newer (not released yet) has a feature his current (released a year ago) doesn't have? So can I whine my 10yr old receiver doesn't have HDMI connections?

However. I think your only option is to pass the signal to the receiver with component. I suspect the problem is between your receiver and the device and not the PJ and the receiver. All my HDMI issues have been in between the receiver and the device.

Wow, and I suggested the same thing. You know, because it's the logical solution. He wants component as his projector so, wow, let's use component all the way.

However this may reduce your SQ if your HD-DVD are the new formats. But tis life.

But I thought component is just as good as HDMI.

 

[Warlan]

...snip...

It's quite clear you didn't read his response to me very well nor understand what I have been saying.

He said the following:

Because my $7,000 1080p projector has "handshake" issues with my Toshiba HD-XA1.

Component Video may be "analog", but it is fully capable of delivering 1080p resolution picture.

Just because it is "analog" does not mean it is inferior - it just means it does not have any of that "handshake" issues that HDMI has.

My projector seems to love the HDMI from my $2000 Denon blu-ray player and my HTPC (both are HDMI v1.3).

But it does not like the HDMI from my Toshiba HD DVD player, Sony DVD player, & Oppo SACD player, which are v1.0, v1.1, or v1.2.

He's clearing talking about his projector having handshake issues with his non v1.3 HDMI players. Nowhere does he suggest that these handshake issues are from his receiver, except to say that he can't (presumably) take an HDMI source and downconvert it to a component source. The simple and likely superior option is to keep it component all the way to the projector (which I suggested a page or two ago).

 

[Votrax]

Because my $7,000 1080p projector has "handshake" issues with my Toshiba HD-XA1.

Component Video may be "analog", but it is fully capable of delivering 1080p resolution picture.

Just because it is "analog" does not mean it is inferior - it just means it does not have any of that "handshake" issues that HDMI has.

My projector seems to love the HDMI from my $2000 Denon blu-ray player and my HTPC (both are HDMI v1.3).

But it does not like the HDMI from my Toshiba HD DVD player, Sony DVD player, & Oppo SACD player, which are v1.0, v1.1, or v1.2.

Have you tried turning off video conversion? I have a HD-A20 that runs through a $30 monoprice HDMI switch to a HC-5000 with no issues.

 

[lsiberian]

As written he said the projector had issues, not the receiver.


I never said the bandwith was the problem. It's the conversion back and forth between digital and analog that is the issue. And there is a difference between analog and quality signal wise-one simply needs to compare VGA vs DVI on a computer. Whether one is better than the other depends entirely on the source.


It matters how often it is converted. We are talking video here, not audio given it's an issue between his projector and dvd players. I could have sworn LCD and DLP were all digital formats. Are you suggesting a digital signal via HDMI is converted to an analog signal within a DLP or LCD display?


We are now promoting whining because something newer (not released yet) has a feature his current (released a year ago) doesn't have? So can I whine my 10yr old receiver doesn't have HDMI connections?


Wow, and I suggested the same thing. You know, because it's the logical solution. He wants component as his projector so, wow, let's use component all the way.

But I thought component is just as good as HDMI.

It's quite clear you didn't read his response to me very well nor understand what I have been saying.

He said the following:
He's clearing talking about his projector having handshake issues with his non v1.3 HDMI players. Nowhere does he suggest that these handshake issues are from his receiver, except to say that he can't (presumably) take an HDMI source and downconvert it to a component source. The simple and likely superior option is to keep it component all the way to the projector (which I suggested a page or two ago).

I think he's mistaken in his prognosis.
And I never said that Component was as good as HDMI(if I did I was wrong)
HDMI can carry deep color and the new HD audio formats. No other setup does that.

Start whining about your 10 year old receiver.

Well everything passed in a computer is essentially digital because that is the basis of computers so yes a DLP is digital however that signal is converted into analog as it goes to the screen.

I have no desire to get into digital logic discussion that class was the hardest class in our program. And I desire not to relive it.

 

[Warlan]

I think he's mistaken in his prognosis.

Well then it's hardly my fault if I'm trying to help him if I am given wrong info.

And I never said that Component was as good as HDMI(if I did I was wrong)
HDMI can carry deep color and the new HD audio formats. No other setup does that.

You said there was no difference. But I'll let it slide.

Start whining about your 10 year old receiver.

Heh, I'm above that (mostly) and bought a new Z7 to replace my Denon 2801.

Well everything passed in a computer is essentially digital because that is the basis of computers so yes a DLP is digital however that signal is converted into analog as it goes to the screen.

You mean in the form of light? Speakers do the same, but the importance is to reduce the amount of conversions from digital to analog as it goes from source to display.

I have no desire to get into digital logic discussion that class was the hardest class in our program. And I desire not to relive it.

:run:

 

[bandphan]

With the exception of Deep Color (forget audio) which most displays fail, component cant be distinguished from hdmi. As stated hdmi is the Industries way of clamping down on distribution. I hate bickering and feeling like im talking to a Monster Sales Rep. There are times when hdmi will only do, but that has zero to do with comp. Quality of signal. Maybe in the future.

 

[tn001d]

There is actually a way to send HDMI and component to the denon receiver from the same equipment and get HD audio from HDMI and 1080i HD video from the component.

If you need the directions i can dig it up for you.

BTW, the Denon 2801 is not 10 yrs old, More like 8.5 yrs

 

[Nemo128]

Why would you spend $5000 on a receiver then downconvert from HDMI to analog?

Zone 2 video output. If Zone 2 was HDMI out, it wouldn't be necessary. Nuff said.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I have the issues resolved by using component cables.

I just thought it was interesting how a $5,500 receiver could NOT do such a "simple" conversion that any of my players could do - like my $100 Sony DVD player could output the video via both HDMI & Component.

I learn something new everyday. That is one reason why we post our thoughts and questions, right?

I guess I could have complained about my projector.

Would an Epson or Panasonic or Mitsubishi PJ have the same "handshake" issues with older HDMI versions when connected to the AVR-5308CI?

Maybe. Maybe not.

But I'm here to report to my fellow Audioholics that my Optoma HD81-LV projector has "handshake" issues with older HDMI versions (Sony DVD, Toshiba HD DVD, Oppo SACD) - EVEN when they are all connected to the MIGHTY Denon AVR-5308CI.

I mean the DAWG and others who bought the AVR-3808CI could say, "Shoot, the 5308CI ain't all that afterall."

I'd be really pissed if the DAWG also got the Optoma HD81-LV, and it worked perfectly with his 3808CI and $100 Sony HDMI v1.0 DVD player.

Peace.

 

[Warlan]

I have the issues resolved by using component cables.

Glad you resolved your issue.

I just thought it was interesting how a $5,500 receiver could NOT do such a "simple" conversion that any of my players could do - like my $100 Sony DVD player could output the video via both HDMI & Component.

Given that so few receivers offer it, I wonder why? Maybe it is more complicated to convert when the source is already being sent over HDMI (HDCP, error correct info, etc...). Maybe it is easier for the player to do it because they have the 'raw' info.

 

[Warlan]

Zone 2 video output. If Zone 2 was HDMI out, it wouldn't be necessary. Nuff said.

Yea, but I just spent $1800 and got Zone 2 video out.

 

[Warlan]

With the exception of Deep Color (forget audio) which most displays fail, component cant be distinguished from hdmi. As stated hdmi is the Industries way of clamping down on distribution. I hate bickering and feeling like im talking to a Monster Sales Rep. There are times when hdmi will only do, but that has zero to do with comp. Quality of signal. Maybe in the future.

My 1080i component looks inferior to 1080p over HDMI so yes they can be distinguished. It's not just deep color. Quality of signal means squat if the industry won't let us enjoy the higher quality images over component. So to continue to say there is no difference or they are on par is misleading unless you qualify it.

 

[lsiberian]

My 1080i component looks inferior to 1080p over HDMI so yes they can be distinguished. It's not just deep color. Quality of signal means squat if the industry won't let us enjoy the higher quality images over component. So to continue to say there is no difference or they are on par is misleading unless you qualify it.

Yes but you would never be able to distinguish in a blind test.
Think about it.

 

[bandphan]

My 1080i component looks inferior to 1080p over HDMI so yes they can be distinguished. It's not just deep color. Quality of signal means squat if the industry won't let us enjoy the higher quality images over component. So to continue to say there is no difference or they are on par is misleading unless you qualify it.

Hmm 1080i and 1080p. I do this for a living day in and day out. When i get back to my laptop ill be glad to qualify it for you. try outputing 1080i over both and tell us what you see.

 

[Nemo128]

Yea, but I just spent $1800 and got Zone 2 video out.

Can you pass HDMI video to your Zone 2? Didn't think so.

 

[Warlan]

Yes but you would never be able to distinguish in a blind test.
Think about it.

Haha!

Can you pass HDMI video to your Zone 2? Didn't think so.

I'll check. I have dual HDMI outs so it should suffice. I'm not interested in watching two different movies in two different places at the same time.

 

[Warlan]

Hmm 1080i and 1080p. I do this for a living day in and day out. When i get back to my laptop ill be glad to qualify it for you.

I'll await your highly qualified answer. And many people do things for a living day in and day out. Doesn't mean they are good at it.

try outputing 1080i over both and tell us what you see.

Why would I do that? Just so component can compete?

 

[bandphan]

I'll await your highly qualified answer. And many people do things for a living day in and day out. Doesn't mean they are good at it.


Why would I do that? Just so component can compete?

Wasnt that the point? I stick to my job and you yours. Enjoy the red chicklet.