5.1 to 2.0 'downgrade' ?

[Bevan]

i'm thinking of downgrading my system from 4.1 to 2.0 and was wondering if anyone else has gone throught a similar scaling down?

sad thing, according to my girlfriend anyway, is that i just bought a new sub 3 weeeks ago and have just finnished 3 weeks of tweaking with placement and a bfd to get the frequency response near ruler flat. sounds great.

my reasons for concidering the change are that, firstly, music is my main priority. i'm looking to trade the $1000 bookshelves and $1000 sub for $1800 bookshelves that are +-3db@41hz. i dont think i'll miss much low end, and i value better midrange and highs over sub bass extention.

secondly, while i have quite a serious passion for film, i dont think i'll miss the sub or rear speakers when watching dvds. the last two dvd's i watched(Lost in Translation; Adaptaion), the one film i forgot to turn the sub on, and the other i forgot to turn on the rear speakers amp, and in both cases i didnt notice that anything was amis untill the movies were over. maybe i dont listen very critically, i dont know? (but i did enjoy immensely the 'lost in translation' soundtrack so i dont think high fidelity playback is lost on me during movies)

i am just starting to think that subs and rears are not as important for some movies, movies that are more plot/character than action driven. for 'lord of the rings' i definitely enjoyed having my sub, and the 'bean scene' in 'house of flying daggers' was amazing with rear speakers, i just think that for some people a stereo system is the best solution. i can live without the few seconds of wow the sub and surrounds typically deliver, as, for me, they dont usually add much to my lasting impression of the film.

when a newby posts asking for advice in buliding a system, he's usually asked for his music/movie split. he's seldom asked what types of movies he typically watches. i'm just also wanting to raise awareness of the fact that a 2.0 system can be a viable compromise for certain people wanting to enjoy both movies and music.


cheers

b

 

[jaxvon]

If most of the movies you watch are dialogue based, then you shouldn't really feel pain from getting rid of your surrounds and subwoofer. In movies at least, the surrounds are really only used in action movies with lots of crazy visuals to go with the sound. The subwoofer generally helps fill out the bottom end with explosions and such.

However, I do have one caution: you might want to keep your subwoofer. Why? Crossing your mains over with a subwoofer means that you aren't sending them as many bass signals. This equates to clearer midrange (something you say you value highly). If you can, I would say keep the subwoofer, but perhaps lower the crossover point to 50-60Hz.

 

[Bevan]

thats a ggod point. and i also value the flat freq response that the sub(+eq) gives. but funds make it an either/or situation i.e i cant upgrade fronts and keep sub.


but now you have me wondering just how much removing bass from my mains contributes to midrange clarity? i dont drive my mains too hard as i stay in an appartment, but you might be right.

with regards to the above, and the flat freq response issue, i wonder why companies like Rell recommend a speaker level connection for their subs for 'audiophile' 2-channel listning. this to me negates two of the three reasons for getting a sub? any opinions anyone??

cheers

b.

 

[WmAx]

but now you have me wondering just how much removing bass from my mains contributes to midrange clarity? i dont drive my mains too hard as i stay in an appartment, but you might be right.

It depends on the speaker excursion/incursion distance vs. the frequencies reproduced over the upper bandwidth/extension of the midbass driver. The problem that occurs on most 2 way speakers is properly referred to as phase modulation distortion[it is one of the most offensive sounding distortions], and is a result of the higher frequencies being radiated at different physical positions along the z axis as the speaker cone moves relative large distances[large in relation to the high frequencies, and the distance equal to sufficient phase rotation to cause an audible interaction] in response to low frequencies. In most cases, in my experiences, crossing over at about 85 Hz with a 4th order electronic crossover will render this a non issue on most 6"-7" 2 way systems, even at very high volume levels. At moderate volume levels, lower frequencies are possible. Of course, these are generalized recomendations; the actual optimum crossover frequency will vary according to each specific speaker system.

with regards to the above, and the flat freq response issue, i wonder why companies like Rell recommend a speaker level connection for their subs for 'audiophile' 2-channel listning. this to me negates two of the three reasons for getting a sub? any opinions anyone??

I don't know why they would recommend such a connection. The technically correct way is to ensure a proper crossover integration/transition of the mains to the sub(s). This requires an electronic line level crossover in practical application(s). A passive speaker level crossover at such low frequencies is physically large, expensive[due to the extremely large values of parts required] and must be custom designed for the particular speakers being crossed over[a generic xover can not work, as the impedance at low frequencies will not be linear, as thus must be compensated for on the passive xover -- an active crossover does not have to deal with impedance issues of the speakers].

-Chris

 

[tbewick]

Hello Bevan

I think you should get for it. I've found that using only one subwoofer can make things sound boomy. I prefer just using my main full-range speakers by themselves. It certainly takes up less room doing it this way (the B&W subwoofer I used to own was just too big and didn't seem to be doing anything most of the time).

There are advantages to only using a stereo (two channel) set up. For example, the two speakers are more likely to interact differently with the nodes in the room, giving you a more even bass response. This of course depends on your set up and where you have the speakers placed. So long as your speakers well separated, you might find surround effects sound better than they did when using surround speakers. My guess is that surround speakers are necessary in the movie theater because the room which they are trying to fill is so much bigger and has much more acoustical damping than in a typical home. Whenever I've used surround speakers they have been either distracting (which they aren't in the movie theater) or as you say, used rarely.

I'm not sure about this mid-range clarity argument which I've heard before, as there are two ways of looking at it. Using different drivers and separate amps will mean that the speakers/amps will be driven less hard, which may improve sound quality. It is desirable however to have all the frequencies emanating from a point-source, i.e. one position, because this helps to minimise phase distortion.

 

[WmAx]

I'm not sure about this mid-range clarity argument which I've heard before, as there are two ways of looking at it. Using different drivers and separate amps will mean that the speakers/amps will be driven less hard, which may improve sound quality. It is desirable however to have all the frequencies emanating from a point-source, i.e. one position, because this helps to minimise phase distortion.

Which mid-range clarity argument are you not sure about? Phase modulation distortion is a [1]real distortion, and has typically been referred to as Doppler distortion[some might say erroneously referred to as Doppler distortion, but it is an ongoing debate as to the proper title to assign to the phenomenon].

-Chris

Footnotes

[1]Doppler distortion in loudspeakers - Real or Imaginary?
Rod Elliot
http://sound.westhost.com/doppler.htm

 

[Nick250]

I don't think you can generalize about lows sounding boomy when using a sub. My Paradigm Studio 20s sound boomy when on their own, but not when using my HSU VTF2 crossed over at 60HZ. That being said, when the HSU was in the corner the bass sounded muddy. Moving it 10 feet made a hugh improvement. In my setup up both movies and music are much better to my ears with the sub. I think each situation needs to be evaluated individually but in general it is my opinion that a properally set up sub is a good thing for both music and movies.

 

[Bevan]

thanks for the input, especially WmAx for a quite edifying post

b

 

[Shadow_Ferret]

my reasons for concidering the change are that, firstly, music is my main priority. i'm looking to trade the $1000 bookshelves and $1000 sub for $1800 bookshelves that are +-3db@41hz. i dont think i'll miss much low end, and i value better midrange and highs over sub bass extention.

Interesting. You're getting speakers just for music and they ONLY go down to 41hz and you don't htink you'll miss much?

My speakers go down to 30hz and I always feel like there's some underlying something I'm missing, even if it's just some harmonics. It's nothing I can put my finger on, just a vague sense I get while listening to music that has big bass, i.e. synthesizers, kettle drums, organs, etc.

I was going to upgrade my 2 speakers to ones that go to 25hz or even lower, hoping to fill in that bottom (and eventually get a sub to fill in the rest).

 

[Bevan]

well, i do listen to a ton of electronic music...but i'm going to get the prospective speakers(dynaudio focus 140's) from the shop for a demo before i commit. if it cant do infected mushroom its going back.

was wondering what instruments i would miss. i always hear the lowest note on a bass guitar is 41 hz, so in theory i should be missing nothing there at all as there is nothing bellow the fundamental? is this correct?

what about a kick-drum, what is its frequency typically? the sub did seem to give more impact there compared to my 52hz bookshelves.

the lowest piano note is low 30's if i'm not mistaken? but its not to often that would bet played in my house(though my christopher riley playes radiohead does get a lot of play)

its just that there seem to be a ton of music first people who are completely satisfied with their high-end standmounts, people who could afford subs but who choose to go without. but i think i must reason/listen this one for myself.

one other issue i have with the sub. even two weeks after i've got it finally set up and eqalaized, i find myseld listning too much to the bass(even though the bass is not too much). i bet if i had got a new tweeter i would spend all my time listining to the highs. i'm hoping this goes away as i like to forget about my system.

and i'm also worried that the sub might make me start choosing films purely for their low end effects rather than their intellectual content and artistic merit. cause i've found hifi has shifted my listning habits slightly towards better recorded titles, which doesnt worry me too much as they are generally pretty good in themselves. but i dont relish a dumbing down of my movie tastes.

thanks for the input

b

 

[WmAx]

.

was wondering what instruments i would miss. i always hear the lowest note on a bass guitar is 41 hz, so in theory i should be missing nothing there at all as there is nothing bellow the fundamental? is this correct?

There are lots of low frequency sounds below this range, even on these instruments. While the primary note frequency is lowest of what you state, this ignores the sound of the pressed/released pedal on a piano or the low frequency effects caused by the pressing/sliding of the fingers on the bass strings, etc.. These small details are what help the music sound realistic. Bass drums may have significant spectral content well below 40Hz bandwidth that you claim is adequate for your purpose(s). Also, electronically created music will often have frequencies well below 40Hz.

Unfortunately, I can not cite a credible perceptual study involving preferred low frequency limits of bandwidth for loudspeaker reproduction, though I think there is one, I just can't remember the citation so that I can read/reference the paper's data at the moment. Therefor my advice on this matter will have to based on my poorly arrived at opinion: I find that I prefer at least a flat response[measured at listening position] down to 35 Hz. Currently, my main speakers have a much lower usable low frequency response[25Hz] limit, but a true response of about 35Hz is borderline acceptable for me in a full range speaker system, based on subjective[non-controlled listening tests] listening while using a variably adjustable high pass filter. Note: I carefully compensate room response by using parametric equalization in my application(s).

-Chris

 

[Bevan]

interesting that. a few questions still as i'm pretty clueless about these things:

what is 'spectral content'? does spectral content have harmonics?

if a bass note is, say, 30hz, we hear it in its 60hz, 90hz harmonic as far as i understand. if my speaker had a brick-wall cut-off at 40hz would i hear the harmonics of a 30hz note i.e is it encoded on the disk or does the room create it?

it would be intersting if one could put a brick wall filter at 30 or 40hz just to see what is going on bellow this.

while i know if i sell the sub i'll loose some LF musical content, i'm thinking that by upgrading midrange and HF with the money from the sub i gain some musical content. which is more important is the question. i'm thinking that if LF extention was that important then only full or near full-range speakers would ever win awards. look at one of the most in-vogue speakers at the moment, the Spendor s5e, it doesnt even go to 50hz yet is cleaning up in the hifi press. Art Dudley in his Stereophile review of this speaker claimed he heard things in the bass he'd 'never heard before', which would suggest that bass articulation is no less important than bass extention. i'll wait and see how the Dynaudio Focus 140 does in this regard, but if it betters the Dynaudio sub i recon i'll do the deal.

cheers

b

 

[WmAx]

interesting that. a few questions still as i'm pretty clueless about these things:

what is 'spectral content'? does spectral content have harmonics?

Spectral is a tense of spectrum. I am referring to the frequency distribution.

if a bass note is, say, 30hz, we hear it in its 60hz, 90hz harmonic as far as i understand. if my speaker had a brick-wall cut-off at 40hz would i hear the harmonics of a 30hz note i.e is it encoded on the disk or does the room create it?

The harmonics created by the instrument are dependant on the mechanical non-linear behaviour of the object such as resonant behaviour and other sounds that are incidentally prompted to occur when the device is stimulated. You may miss lower frequency content that is prompted as incidental, such as the piano pedal example I gave earlier, and if the fundamental is below a 'brickwall' filter as you pose as theorectical, then you would completely miss the fundamental note.

it would be intersting if one could put a brick wall filter at 30 or 40hz just to see what is going on bellow this.

This source material dependant. If the test material used has very little or no content below 40Hz, then it would be difficult if not impossible to tell the difference. However, in the case that substantial content is in the recording under the brick wall filter, it would be easy to identify the difference. But I believe that to just identify one or the other is different from the question you want answered, which I believe is, "How will this affect percieved sound quality for me?". Unfortunately, I can not answer this for you personally, but I provided my personal preference/opinion and described how I arrived at the value in my last reply.

while i know if i sell the sub i'll loose some LF musical content, i'm thinking that by upgrading midrange and HF with the money from the sub i gain some musical content. which is more important is the question.

It's about your preferences and what you think is most important. Only you can decide for yourself if the replacement speakers are significantly better sounding so far as the midrange/treble by a margin that warrants the loss in the low frequency range as a tolerable compromise. Looking at it logically, if this is what you have to do[sell the subs] to get the speakers that sound best to you, then at least you can later add a[preferablly two subs in stereo] subwoofer. I would HIGHLY recommend stereo subwoofers, one placed near each main speaker, for speakers such as the bookshelves you are considering.

i'm thinking that if LF extention was that important then only full or near full-range speakers would ever win awards. look at one of the most in-vogue speakers at the moment, the Spendor s5e, it doesnt even go to 50hz yet is cleaning up in the hifi press.Art Dudley in his Stereophile review of this speaker claimed he heard things in the bass he'd 'never heard before', which would suggest that bass articulation is no less important than bass extention. i'll wait and see how the Dynaudio Focus 140 does in this regard, but if it betters the Dynaudio sub i recon i'll do the deal.

If you want a realistic reproduction or you want to hear all of the information on a recording -- you need a full range speaker. Period. But the issue here is not a question of what is needed for realistic reproduction. Only you can answer the question you have posed here, which is "Is this a compromise that is worth it for me, based on my preferences?". Please be careful of evaluating bass, especially on a subwoofer, it's really not possible to do so accurately without at least placing the subwoofer optimally, dialing in room correctios on a parmetric equalizer and then integrating with the main speakers using a proper line level crossover on both the main speakers and the subwoofer(s). If one fails to do these things, then other variables are highly probably of affecting the sound quality other than those related to the subwoofer itself.

-Chris

 

[Bevan]

thanks for that.

as often, the discussion ends with the 'personal preferance' thing. nothing at all wrong with that me thinks.

i do plan to get back my sub(s) at a later date though. there are other considerations at the moment that i havent let on about, not least the fact that at the moment i'm trying to figure out how i'll get my dvd player, amp, two speakers, sub, and all my lifes possessions on the plane to australia when i immigrate there next year(done it before minus the sub). also, i might want to change subs to a rell strata 5.

cheers

b

 

[Robert Harrison]

Hey, you are not alone in two-channel land. I once had a roomful of speakers, but I was never happy because they were all different models, although the same manufacturer (Polk). My amps and speaker cables didn't match, either. I figured I had a better chance (with my budget, always a consideration) to achieve more coherence in the soundfield by going to 2.0, although I have since added a subwoofer.

I have used an aiming technique that I learned from a test CD, wherein you play a monophonic OUT-OF-PHASE signal and position your two speakers until the sound appears to be coming from everywhere, or, ideally, from another dimension. This takes care of surround effects on movies. I do have trouble keeping the phantom center signal exactly centered (and I sit directly in between the speakers), but overall, I enjoy what I hear.

After a lot of experimenting, which I never really stop doing, I decided to try that REL technique of hooking the subwoofer up to my main speakers (which go down to about 40hz) and set the sub's crossover to match. Even though the sub is in the corner, several feet away from the main speakers, it blends in seamlessly. I am not saying that this is because of that technique, mind you. I think the low crossover is mostly responsible for that. However, REL's (and similarly, Vandersteen's) claim is this particular technique allows the sub to become sonically symbiotic with the main amp/speaker combo.

Otherwise, I will say that timing is very important. A roomful of speakers arrive at your ears at all different times and can muddy things up quite a bit. It seems great for a while, but eventually it becomes apparent that things could be improved. Same goes for speaker and sub timing. That's why, in some cases, you may be better off without all the muss and fuss and do the best you can with two speakers.