5.1 system with 4ohm Dynaudio speakers.

[gorman]

Hi, I'm currently investigating the replacement for my Onkyo TX-DS797. It's connected to Dynaudio Audience speakers (72 front speakers, 42W surrounds, 42C central, and a Sub20-A) which are 4ohm if I remember correctly (set it up years ago...).

I'm looking at and considering Onkyo TX NR906, Marantz SR 8002, Denon 3808A but I am not against Yamaha (Yamaha RX-V3900) products either. Pioneer has been discarded as it apparently doesn't handle well 4ohms speakers, as per Audioholics recent review of the unit in the same price range.

I'm interested in an amp that sounds good with 4ohm speakers, with Dolby Headphone surround processing (as I play videogames at night and have a 2 years old daughter) or equivalent. I'm ready to spend more to have music sound better, which is something I don't give for granted with AVR units.

I posted this on AVS too and, in the meantime, discovered:

Onkyo not offering any kind of headphone processing (a shame, because it has pretty much everything I need I think).
Marantz offering MultiEQ but no MultiEQ XT.
Denon probably not very good at video processing and not so clearly indicated for my 4ohm speakers.

I wonder about Yamaha and I'm definitely interested in any other alternative. Separate amp-pre solutions are out of the picture, as I wouldn't know where to fit them.

I live in Italy, if that helps in suggesting brands available in my territory.

 

[highfigh]

Hi, I'm currently investigating the replacement for my Onkyo TX-DS797. It's connected to Dynaudio Audience speakers (72 front speakers, 42W surrounds, 42C central, and a Sub20-A) which are 4ohm if I remember correctly (set it up years ago...).

I'm looking at and considering Onkyo TX NR906, Marantz SR 8002, Denon 3808A but I am not against Yamaha (Yamaha RX-V3900) products either. Pioneer has been discarded as it apparently doesn't handle well 4ohms speakers, as per Audioholics recent review of the unit in the same price range.

I'm interested in an amp that sounds good with 4ohm speakers, with Dolby Headphone surround processing (as I play videogames at night and have a 2 years old daughter) or equivalent. I'm ready to spend more to have music sound better, which is something I don't give for granted with AVR units.

I posted this on AVS too and, in the meantime, discovered:

Onkyo not offering any kind of headphone processing (a shame, because it has pretty much everything I need I think).
Marantz offering MultiEQ but no MultiEQ XT.
Denon probably not very good at video processing and not so clearly indicated for my 4ohm speakers.

I wonder about Yamaha and I'm definitely interested in any other alternative. Separate amp-pre solutions are out of the picture, as I wouldn't know where to fit them.

I live in Italy, if that helps in suggesting brands available in my territory.

There's nothing wrong with Denon's video processing. If you want a "Swiss Army Receiver", it's going to be expensive, so more elaborate video processing might be better done outboard. The AVR 3808 will have no problem driving the Dynaudio speakers- I set up a system over two years ago with Audience 52 (front), 42W and 42C with the Sub250 and it has had zero issues.

 

[gorman]

Nothing wrong with Denon's video processing for sure, but from all I can understand it's a step behind Onkyo (Reon HQV) and Yamaha (latest ABT).

All in all, I'd like to understand how Yamaha might handle 4 ohm, because it appears to tick all the other checkboxes. But again, I'm interested in sound quality (I love music) as well, not just nifty features.

 

[CraigV]

You may want to consider getting a mid-grade receiver that has the goodies you want but also has pre-amp outputs and hook up a separate amplifier, like an Emotiva XPA-5. That will drive those speakers with aplomb.

 

[Jeff R.]

I found a write up on these speakers it appears that the lowest you will be hitting is about 4.36 ohms. I also found info on the 52 series which I assume is the big brother to your 42s and they are 4.50 ohms. So you are accruate with the 4 ohm levels.

"The Audience 72's listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +2.27/–5.22 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz. The –3dB point is at 55 Hz, and the –6dB point is at 42 Hz. Impedance reaches a minimum of 4.36 ohms at 114 Hz and a phase angle of +35.60 degrees at 51 Hz. "

You will likely be fine with the Onk 906. I run an 805 with my MB Quarts and they are 4 ohm 87 db sensitivity. So very close to your speaks and I have not had any issues. I do like CraigV's idea of getting the separate amp.

 

[j_garcia]

You may want to consider getting a mid-grade receiver that has the goodies you want but also has pre-amp outputs and hook up a separate amplifier, like an Emotiva XPA-5. That will drive those speakers with aplomb.

I have all 4 Ohm speakers and I agree with Craig. Regardless of room size, I would not rely on a receiver with 4 Ohm speakers; at least none of the ones you have listed. As you can see, in my setup I have the front 3 on separate amps, as I had the receiver before I bought these speakers. Though I can play my system without the amps, when I push it to the levels I want with SACD, DVD-A and movies where there is a lot going on in all of the speakers I could tell that the receiver was struggling. The difference in headroom with the amps is quite noticeable and will prevent the possibility of damaging the speakers due to clipping.

 

[rded]

Hi, I'm currently investigating the replacement for my Onkyo TX-DS797. It's connected to Dynaudio Audience speakers (72 front speakers, 42W surrounds, 42C central, and a Sub20-A) which are 4ohm if I remember correctly (set it up years ago...).

I'm looking at and considering Onkyo TX NR906, Marantz SR 8002, Denon 3808A but I am not against Yamaha (Yamaha RX-V3900) products either. Pioneer has been discarded as it apparently doesn't handle well 4ohms speakers, as per Audioholics recent review of the unit in the same price range.

I'm interested in an amp that sounds good with 4ohm speakers, with Dolby Headphone surround processing (as I play videogames at night and have a 2 years old daughter) or equivalent. I'm ready to spend more to have music sound better, which is something I don't give for granted with AVR units.

I posted this on AVS too and, in the meantime, discovered:

Onkyo not offering any kind of headphone processing (a shame, because it has pretty much everything I need I think).
Marantz offering MultiEQ but no MultiEQ XT.
Denon probably not very good at video processing and not so clearly indicated for my 4ohm speakers.

I wonder about Yamaha and I'm definitely interested in any other alternative. Separate amp-pre solutions are out of the picture, as I wouldn't know where to fit them.

I live in Italy, if that helps in suggesting brands available in my territory.

Gorman,


Believe it or not, Dynaudios are realtively easy to drive even though they are rated 4 ohms as the impedance curve is so flat that the amp doesn't work hard at all. I can speak from experience as I have Dynaudio Contour 3.4s SC center and Focuss 110s for rears and my last receiver- the Denon 3808CI was more than capable of driving them. Think quality instead of quantity for current. Good clean current will drive speakers better than power especially when it comes to DYNs.

 

[gorman]

Emotiva stuff is awesome but tough to get in Europe if I'm not mistaken.

No love for the Yamaha, then?

Are you saying the Denon would be as good as the Onkyo at driving my Dynaudios?

Also, confirmation Denon has Dolby Headphone? And does Onkyo run +that+ hot, I've read scary posts...

 

[rded]

Emotiva stuff is awesome but tough to get in Europe if I'm not mistaken.

No love for the Yamaha, then?

Are you saying the Denon would be as good as the Onkyo at driving my Dynaudios?

Also, confirmation Denon has Dolby Headphone? And does Onkyo run +that+ hot, I've read scary posts...

Between the Onkyo and Denon, IMO the Denon will sound better than the Onkyo and is able to drive higher impedance speakers with more ease. The 3808 has better audio processing and room calibration. But if you can audition them then that'll be great.

 

[CraigV]

Emotiva stuff is awesome but tough to get in Europe if I'm not mistaken.

No love for the Yamaha, then?

Are you saying the Denon would be as good as the Onkyo at driving my Dynaudios?

Also, confirmation Denon has Dolby Headphone? And does Onkyo run +that+ hot, I've read scary posts...

Sorry, didn’t read down to the part about you living in Italy

Is there a market for used gear near you? You could still combine an outboard amplifier with a receiver that has pre-amp outs. Most separate amps will do a better job of driving low impedance speakers.

 

[gorman]

The problem is I don't know where I could fit two elements in my custom made cabinet (custom made mainly for aesthetic reasons, nothing too fancy).

Also, the WAF of me carrying home a 60" plasma a pre and an amplifier... I'm already bracing for impact for when the Kuro will get here.

 

[Lordoftherings]

The problem is I don't know where I could fit two elements in my custom made cabinet (custom made mainly for aesthetic reasons, nothing too fancy).

Also, the WAF of me carrying home a 60" plasma a pre and an amplifier... I'm already bracing for impact for when the Kuro will get here.

Hi Gorman,

Over where you are in Italy, the Onkyo TX-NR906 is your ticket, good price plus all the power you need, even into 4-ohm loads, no sweat. And you probably know already about the Reon video processor and the entire list of excellent features.
To save more money, go with the very similar Onkyo TX-SR876.

As for Dolby headphone, well is it REALLY that important to you?
That is very not much to give up for all the gains you get with the 906 or 876.

If you are really stock on Dolby headphone, then your 2nd choice is the Denon AVR-3808ci. But you loose the better video processing of the Onkyos too.

So in the end, it's all about compromises.

Either the Onkyo 906 (or 876), or the Denon 3808, you'll have a fantastic receiver.

As for the Marantz and the Yamaha, you seem to know the score, so I don't have anything else to add, you're smart enough.

Bonjourno,

Roberto

Postscriptum: I own the Onkyo TX-SR876, and I am extremely please with it. Plus all my speakers are a much tougher loads than yours. My 876 with THX Ultra2 Plus certification, just chew them without any sweat whatsoever. Plus you don't need Dolby headphone, because you have "Late Night" mode, THX Loudness Plus, Audyssey Dynamic EQ and Audyssey Dynamic Volume. And you also have Headphone own volume control (from -12db to +12db).
Ta-li-da-di-li-da... (Savatore Dali)

 

[gorman]

Well, Dolby Headphone is important as I'm into gaming and for that positional cues are important. It's not the volume, it's the positioning I'm after. I long for a day when 360 and PS3 will offer automatic encoding of their own 5.1 signals into 2.0 Dolby Headphone material... This is why I was wondering about Yamaha: good video processing, good sound processing, headphone listening mode.

As far as the Onkio is concerned, apart from Dolby Headphone, my main concern rests with the heat issue. It would go into the cabinet I link in the following post.

 

[gorman]

As you can see (you can click the image) there's not too much space for it. The size of the cabinet is 445 mm x 200 mm. There's enough depth for it, that's not the problem. But not too much air "around" (NR906 is 435x194...)

Edit: Marantz 440x396x184, Yamaha 435 x 181 x 439, Denon 434x171x420. From what I can determine from weight, it appears quite clear that the Onkyo is in a different class for amplification purposes, unless they weighted the unit somehow

Btw, when I had the cabinet built I was convinced that 420mm was standard width... I find more and more products that barely fit in my 445mm width, damn.

Also, does anyone know the standby power requirements of these units? I remember reading (sadly not where) about a receiver using 20W in standby, which seems outrageous.

 

[Lordoftherings]

As you can see (you can click the image) there's not too much space for it. The size of the cabinet is 445 mm x 200 mm. There's enough depth for it, that's not the problem. But not too much air "around" (NR906 is 435x194...)

Denon AVR-3808ci then. Much better receiver than the Yamaha RX-V3900 in my honest opinion. The Denon runs cooler than the Yamaha too.
The Denon has Audyssey MultEQ XT and all the other stuff that goes with it.
The Yamaha YPAO is much less sophisticated (only few bands of parametric EQ and no time domain either).
The 3808 is better at 4ohms too, a bit more power. It is loaded with very useful features too, a much better implementation of truly audiophile features in my honest opinion too.

The Denon has Dolby headphone. And the video processor, even if it's not in the same league as the Reon-VX50 or the ABT-2010, it is nonetheless very decent (Silicon Optix, Faroudja FLI-2310).

Ta-li-da-da-li-da... (Salvatore)

Roberto

Postcriptum: I found it amazing that people choose their components according to room placements and headphone features.

Me I choose my components for top notch performance, build and value. Then I adust my rack for it. It's not my rack that dictates which receiver that I will pick.
I'm much too smart for that. Headphones, well I won't go there...

 

[lsiberian]

Hi Gorman,

Over where you are in Italy, the Onkyo TX-NR906 is your ticket, good price plus all the power you need, even into 4-ohm loads, no sweat. And you probably know already about the Reon video processor and the entire list of excellent features.
To save more money, go with the very similar Onkyo TX-SR876.

As for Dolby headphone, well is it REALLY that important to you?
That is very not much to give up for all the gains you get with the 906 or 876.

If you are really stock on Dolby headphone, then your 2nd choice is the Denon AVR-3808ci. But you loose the better video processing of the Onkyos too.

So in the end, it's all about compromises.

Either the Onkyo 906 (or 876), or the Denon 3808, you'll have a fantastic receiver.

As for the Marantz and the Yamaha, you seem to know the score, so I don't have anything else to add, you're smart enough.

Bonjourno,

Roberto

Postscriptum: I own the Onkyo TX-SR876, and I am extremely please with it. Plus all my speakers are a much tougher loads than yours. My 876 with THX Ultra2 Plus certification, just chew them without any sweat whatsoever. Plus you don't need Dolby headphone, because you have "Late Night" mode, THX Loudness Plus, Audyssey Dynamic EQ and Audyssey Dynamic Volume. And you also have Headphone own volume control (from -12db to +12db).
Ta-li-da-di-li-da... (Savatore Dali)

I must warn you that both the 876 and 906 are very heavy receivers and run hot. They aren't ideal for a closed rack or a weak one.

They will certainly run 4 ohm loads, but still I think a pre- pro combo is best for this. The cost of such a combo is high though. Video processing isn't a feature of great importance IMO because most displays do it better. At least displays worthy of the feature. Finally you won't know what you want until you go to an electronics store and play with various units. This will be the headquarters of your system. You want to make sure you like you receiver.

Roberto, Craig and I aren't you. We like different things. You must discover for yourself the reciever or pre-pro you want.

 

[gorman]

Yeah, probably I should go for the Denon. After all I'm gonna pair it to a Kuro LX6090, processing should be good enough in the TV if I'm not mistaken.

Also the heat factor is really scaring me off the Onkyo. The rack isn't weak (solid wood throughout, 3cm thick) but it's closed (although the rear is almost completely open I must add).

Well, after all the current Onkyo I have was rated like this and drove the Dynaudios with no problem (not saying at their best, but with no audible distortion and never going into protection or anything):

AMPLIFIER SECTION
Continuous Average Power output (FTC)
All channels: 100 watts per channel min. RMS at
8 ohms, 2 channels driven from 20
Hz to 20 kHz with no more than
0.08% total harmonic distortion.
130 watts min. RMS at 6 ohms, 2
channels driven from 1 kHz with
no more than 0.1% total harmonic
distortion.
Continuous Power output (DIN) 135 watts at 6 ohms
Maximum Power output (EIAJ) 160 watts at 6 ohms
Dynamic Power Output (Stereo) 2 × 250 watts at 3 ohms
2 × 210 watts at 4 ohms
2 × 130 watts at 8 ohms
Total Harmonic Distortion: 0.08% at rated power
0.08% at 1 Watt output
IM Distortion: 0.08% at rated power
0.08% at 1 Watt output
Damping Factor: 60 at 8 ohms

Is the 3808 better or worse than this (http://www.denon.co.uk/site/popup/index.php?Pid=385&action=start&ver=0)? I don't know how to interpret that data, honestly.

Edit: for all the pre/amp supporters, what could be a decent combo (remember, I don't have access to Emotiva stuff).

 

[highfigh]

Nothing wrong with Denon's video processing for sure, but from all I can understand it's a step behind Onkyo (Reon HQV) and Yamaha (latest ABT).

All in all, I'd like to understand how Yamaha might handle 4 ohm, because it appears to tick all the other checkboxes. But again, I'm interested in sound quality (I love music) as well, not just nifty features.

What video processing do you want/need the receiver to do that the Denon can't? Please be specific.

Personally, I find the Denon to sound more less like a receiver and more like separate components, when compared to Yamaha and some other brands and as I posted, it will power the Dynaudio speakers.

 

[lsiberian]

Yeah, probably I should go for the Denon. After all I'm gonna pair it to a Kuro LX6090, processing should be good enough in the TV if I'm not mistaken.

Also the heat factor is really scaring me off the Onkyo. The rack isn't weak (solid wood throughout, 3cm thick) but it's closed (although the rear is almost completely open I must add).

Well, after all the current Onkyo I have was rated like this and drove the Dynaudios with no problem (not saying at their best, but with no audible distortion and never going into protection or anything):

AMPLIFIER SECTION
Continuous Average Power output (FTC)
All channels: 100 watts per channel min. RMS at
8 ohms, 2 channels driven from 20
Hz to 20 kHz with no more than
0.08% total harmonic distortion.
130 watts min. RMS at 6 ohms, 2
channels driven from 1 kHz with
no more than 0.1% total harmonic
distortion.
Continuous Power output (DIN) 135 watts at 6 ohms
Maximum Power output (EIAJ) 160 watts at 6 ohms
Dynamic Power Output (Stereo) 2 × 250 watts at 3 ohms
2 × 210 watts at 4 ohms
2 × 130 watts at 8 ohms
Total Harmonic Distortion: 0.08% at rated power
0.08% at 1 Watt output
IM Distortion: 0.08% at rated power
0.08% at 1 Watt output
Damping Factor: 60 at 8 ohms

Is the 3808 better or worse than this (http://www.denon.co.uk/site/popup/index.php?Pid=385&action=start&ver=0)? I don't know how to interpret that data, honestly.

I don't know if you really want to carry a 906 up the stairs though. Those things are monsters.

You need to go check out the receivers in a store. See what fits your temperament.

 

[Lordoftherings]

I must warn you that both the 876 and 906 are very heavy receivers and run hot. They aren't ideal for a closed rack or a weak one.

They will certainly run 4 ohm loads, but still I think a pre- pro combo is best for this. The cost of such a combo is high though. Video processing isn't a feature of great importance IMO because most displays do it better. At least displays worthy of the feature. Finally you won't know what you want until you go to an electronics store and play with various units. This will be the headquarters of your system. You want to make sure you like you receiver.

Roberto, Craig and I aren't you. We like different things. You must discover for yourself the reciever or pre-pro you want.

Yes, yes, yes, very true.

But I still love my 876, and it saves me money in the winter time (I turn the heat off). It keeps me fully warm and cosy. I just feel like at home with it's sound too. And Audyssey, oh my god! My two subs just love it...
And by the way, my 805 is great too and no fancy video processor on that one, I don't need it for that system anyway.

But you are totally right, each one of us has different priorities and set of values.

You know the funny thing though, many people ask for our help in their choices, but their choices are often already made! It's just human nature, everyone needs recomfort, confirmation in their own beliefs, they cannot make choices by themselves, they are too unsecure. They desperately need assistance before they make the final jump.

What I found in life is that there is much more fun and experience to learn when you are into the discovery mode. Life is more exhilarating to live.
But that's me, I love the ups and downs, and I live more on the edge, which is more rewarding overall.

Anyway, just a thought...

Bob