4K TVs are coming, but are we ready?

[BoredSysAdmin]

4K TVs are coming, but they face an uphill battle in the home | Ars Technica

 

[its phillip]

I'd be happy with a 4k screen just to use with my computer.

 

[j_garcia]

OLED will come down in price before 4K becomes a factor. In the industry, there isn't a lot of discussion about 4K. (I officially work in the display industry again )

 

[BMXTRIX]

I think much like the largely unneeded 1080p display, 4K will prove to be a cheap way to get consumers excited about updating their display.

"Hey Bob! Did you see the new 19-inch 4K TV I got for my family room? It completely blows away my old 1080p model!"



As long as we see 4K BD players come to market to go with it, then I don't have a huge issue, and I think we will see some movement towards this, especially with front projection.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

To be perfectly honest my recent switch from 720p to 1080p TV sitting from 9-10ft didn't blow me away.
Yes, the motion, black levels and colors really improved and even deblocking works nicely to remove the horrible cable highly compressed stream, but running 720p mkv vs 1080p BluRays

True, Some content does indeed looks better - case in point Blue Planet from Discovery - I was stunned by it's visuals and every pixel counted and accounted for, but for most Hollywood movies the extra resolution barely makes any difference for me

 

[j_garcia]

To be perfectly honest my recent switch from 720p to 1080p TV sitting from 9-10ft didn't blow me away.
Yes, the motion, black levels and colors really improved and even deblocking works nicely to remove the horrible cable highly compressed stream, but running 720p mkv vs 1080p BluRays

True, Some content does indeed looks better - case in point Blue Planet from Discovery - I was stunned by it's visuals and every pixel counted and accounted for, but for most Hollywood movies the extra resolution barely makes any difference for me

The quality of the display can have as much to do with the perceived image as the resolution. I went from a CRT 720p/1080i set to an average 1080p LCD and felt it was a modest improvement. Then I went from that 40" LCD to a much higher quality 55" LED and the PQ jump was even more significant between the two LCDs.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... and every pixel counted and accounted for, ...

You mean you counted every pixels displayed? Must have taken you a long time. Are you sure you didn't lose count and double counted when you blinked?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

You mean you counted every pixels displayed? Must have taken you a long time. Are you sure you didn't lose count and double counted when you blinked?

Watch Blue Planet - Frozen Seas ep on original BR and you'll know what I'm talking about

 

[Audioholics]

I honestly thought (think?) Apple would be the one to mainstream it with a retina display TV.

 

[j_garcia]

I honestly thought (think?) Apple would be the one to mainstream it with a retina display TV.

That is still being kept pretty well secret; what exactly their display technology will be for Apple TV. We currently know who it looks like is going to be doing the manufacturing for these displays. I had been thinking it would be 4K too, but we won't know for sure for a while.

 

[Irishman]

OLED will come down in price before 4K becomes a factor. In the industry, there isn't a lot of discussion about 4K. (I officially work in the display industry again )

You do realize that OLED is not a TV resolution? That you're comparing apples and oranges?

OLED 1080p TVs will come down in price before OLED 4K TVs become widespread. But those 4K TVs will be what drives the prices lower. This happened when 720p made way for 1080p. The new hotness always drives down the price of the old and busted.

 

[j_garcia]

You do realize that OLED is not a TV resolution? That you're comparing apples and oranges?

OLED 1080p TVs will come down in price before OLED 4K TVs become widespread. But those 4K TVs will be what drives the prices lower. This happened when 720p made way for 1080p. The new hotness always drives down the price of the old and busted.

You do realize that you are talking out of your neck, right? Did you even read the article linked? 4K is little more than a buzzword right now. When the new hotness is still the price of a car or is just a prototype that you can't touch, it isn't a factor yet. OLED can be put into production right now at 1080p because there is already an industry to support it. There is exactly ZERO existing support for 4K at this time, so it is vaporware no matter what display format they put it on. Will it eventually be what everyone has at home? Maybe, but probably not in the next year.

4K requires different equipment to manufacture than current displays, so they build or revamp a plant to manufacture it. It is essentially considered a different technology even though both the displays and the equipment they are manufactured on are just evolutions of current technology/equipment. If you can't produce it on the old equipment, a new plant or all new equipment is what needs to happen. OLED is the same: new plants, new equipment, different technology, but the same business strategy. Companies will go with the tech that is the lowest cost to produce and sells at a premium; aka, whatever has the highest profit margin.

To drive prices down, you need equipment and plants to produce that technology, regardless of what it is. In other words, if you can't make a lot of it quickly and cheaply, the price won't come down; especially if there is a demand for it. Since I can actually see what the companies that manufacture the displays are ordering, it isn't too hard to see the direction the industry is moving. The plans for large scale industries like this happen years before you see a product on the market. In the last 13 years I have worked with and for two of the largest suppliers of equipment for the display industry, so it is likely that one or more products that you use daily (phone, flat panel TV or computer monitor, etc...) were manufactured on the equipment I helped create.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Well, Computer content - aka Desktop, Games could probably scale to 4k - there is already 2560x1600 displays and support for them, but yea - John is right to say there is zero real 4k media content in real world, other than inside mastering studios. RED and few other companies starting to make 4k cameras, but it will a LONG while till we see even real 4k projectors in movie theaters, forget about it getting to consumers homes anytime soon

 

[Irishman]

You do realize that you are talking out of your neck, right? Did you even read the article linked? 4K is little more than a buzzword right now. When the new hotness is still the price of a car or is just a prototype that you can't touch, it isn't a factor yet. OLED can be put into production right now at 1080p because there is already an industry to support it. There is exactly ZERO existing support for 4K at this time, so it is vaporware no matter what display format they put it on. Will it eventually be what everyone has at home? Maybe, but probably not in the next year.

4K requires different equipment to manufacture than current displays, so they build or revamp a plant to manufacture it. It is essentially considered a different technology even though both the displays and the equipment they are manufactured on are just evolutions of current technology/equipment. If you can't produce it on the old equipment, a new plant or all new equipment is what needs to happen. OLED is the same: new plants, new equipment, different technology, but the same business strategy. Companies will go with the tech that is the lowest cost to produce and sells at a premium; aka, whatever has the highest profit margin.

To drive prices down, you need equipment and plants to produce that technology, regardless of what it is. In other words, if you can't make a lot of it quickly and cheaply, the price won't come down; especially if there is a demand for it. Since I can actually see what the companies that manufacture the displays are ordering, it isn't too hard to see the direction the industry is moving. The plans for large scale industries like this happen years before you see a product on the market. In the last 13 years I have worked with and for two of the largest suppliers of equipment for the display industry, so it is likely that one or more products that you use daily (phone, flat panel TV or computer monitor, etc...) were manufactured on the equipment I helped create.

Well, thank you for your contributions to the modern world! But, you've either forgotten, been unaware of, or intentionally ignoring (you pick) some products that already handle 4K resolution (primarily some high end projectors), as well as an announced 84" LG display 4K native that will be available by year's end.

Most prevalent are devices that take an HD source and upconverts it to 4K (Sony has a new BDP that does it, several new AVR's do it, and several mid-priced projectors do it).

So, it's certainly not an accurate characterization to say 4k is not a factor in the market, by constructing a strawman argument. All new technologies start terribly expensive and initially only affordable by the most wealthy. No news there.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Well, thank you for your contributions to the modern world! But, you've either forgotten, been unaware of, or intentionally ignoring (you pick) some products that already handle 4K resolution (primarily some high end projectors), as well as an announced 84" LG display 4K native that will be available by year's end.

Most prevalent are devices that take an HD source and upconverts it to 4K (Sony has a new BDP that does it, several new AVR's do it, and several mid-priced projectors do it).

So, it's certainly not an accurate characterization to say 4k is not a factor in the market, by constructing a strawman argument. All new technologies start terribly expensive and initially only affordable by the most wealthy. No news there.

I see you still didn't even bothered yourself to read the article ...
Let me quote for you key point:

The only 4K TV on the floor at CE Week, Westinghouse's D55QX1, was showing off a Google Maps image instead of a video. This is a problem.

It doesn't matter the price or availability of 4k gear, the problem is we don't have real 4K content and NO upscaling doesn't count

 

[Irishman]

I see you still didn't even bothered yourself to read the article ...
Let me quote for you key point:

It doesn't matter the price or availability of 4k gear, the problem is we don't have real 4K content and NO upscaling doesn't count

Hold on, let me move those goalposts back for you.

Upscaling doesn't count in what way?? Have you seen this upscaled 1080p content on a 4K display? I know of at least two who have - Leo Laporte and Scott Wilkinson. They said it looked more immersive than 3D. Of course, native 4K will be the gold standard, but you'd have to be intentionally obtuse to forget that we've been through this already with HD versus upconverted SD. Some upconverted SD can look nearly as good as HD, depending on - as always - how it's mastered.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Hold on, let me move those goalposts back for you.

Upscaling doesn't count in what way?? Have you seen this upscaled 1080p content on a 4K display? I know of at least two who have - Leo Laporte and Scott Wilkinson. They said it looked more immersive than 3D. Of course, native 4K will be the gold standard, but you'd have to be intentionally obtuse to forget that we've been through this already with HD versus upconverted SD. Some upconverted SD can look nearly as good as HD, depending on - as always - how it's mastered.

Well, I'll be damned ... I hate to feed troll, but here it goes:

Not sure which Leo Laporte you are talking about - the one who dropped out of Junior year from Chinese history major and been doing radio and tv - this guy - I'll have my doubts about his credentials...

Ok, now Scott Wilkinson - this is a person who knows thing or two about thing or two let me quote him:

Then there's the issue of 4K content, which I believe won't be available for distribution to the home for quite some time, if ever. Yes, we might see 4K-capable media in the next year or two—for example, BDXL optical discs and RedRay servers—but the studios give relatively few movies the full 4K treatment, and I bet those same studios will be loath to release movies for the home market at 4K. Until they do, owners of 4K displays will be limited to upscaled 1080p, which isn't all that much sharper than the original and carries the risk of scaling artifacts.

How Important is 4K in the Home? | Home Theater

And then he mentions how 4k upscaling is not without issues

Good as it was, upconversion to 4K was not flawless. A so-called Pixel Phase pattern (which shows, among other things, how well a display can perform with adjacent on/off pixels) was less than pristine. That pattern was also discolored, although this is common in LCOS-type projectors. Neither issue had a noticeable effect on real-world program material at a normal viewing distance. The upconversion also tended to slightly exaggerate film grain, although this was rarely distracting and more evident in still images (or in pause) than moving ones.

Sony VPL-VW1000ES 4K SXRD Projector Page 2 | Home Theater

Yes, good 4K PJ will make upscaled to 4k fullhd look good, but how can prove you'll notice the difference vs good old regular full hd PJ with native 1080p material ??

 

[j_garcia]

Well, thank you for your contributions to the modern world! But, you've either forgotten, been unaware of, or intentionally ignoring (you pick) some products that already handle 4K resolution (primarily some high end projectors), as well as an announced 84" LG display 4K native that will be available by year's end.

Apparently you don't read. I never said there are no products. Having a few products capable of it doesn't mean the general public will run out and buy one, especially since what was said VERY EXPLICITLY is that the CONTENT is the current issue not the technology.

Hold on, let me move those goalposts back for you.

Upscaling doesn't count in what way?? Have you seen this upscaled 1080p content on a 4K display? I know of at least two who have - Leo Laporte and Scott Wilkinson. They said it looked more immersive than 3D. Of course, native 4K will be the gold standard, but you'd have to be intentionally obtuse to forget that we've been through this already with HD versus upconverted SD. Some upconverted SD can look nearly as good as HD, depending on - as always - how it's mastered.

This is true, but those external upscalers to do this are still also quite expensive considering you need the 4K display AND an upscaler in most cases. The lack of content and providers of said content still means it is a ways off. Nobody said 4K won't happen, it just won't happen right away, and may never truly reach the average consumer not unlike SACD and DVD-A.

There were discussions of 1440p for a few years too and it never went anywhere either. 4K has a better chance, but just because there are movies being shot in 4K and there are a limited number of theaters with projectors doesn't mean it will be the next thing everyone will have in their home.

Yes, good 4K PJ will make upscaled to 4k fullhd look good, but how can prove you'll notice the difference vs good old regular full hd PJ with native 1080p material ??

To add to that, the article linked in the first post also states that the benefits are completely lost on smaller displays and it won't really be of any significance until you get to screen sizes that begin at upper limit of what consumers are currently buying.

 

[Irishman]

Some updated information on the continued push toward 4K displays, as opposed to OLED 2K displays.

4K LCD TV output to outstrip OLED production • Reg Hardware

Here are some excerpts from the article:

“An interesting snippet here from market watcher NPD DisplaySearch: the momentum behind 4K x 2K TVs is rather greater than that behind large OLED sets.”

"At least nine television makers have demo'd - some at the IFA show earlier this month - and said they will mass-produce very large LCD tellies with a 3840 x 2160 even though the 4K format is some way being supported by broadcasters and content providers globally."

“Contrast that with the OLED TV scene, home to just two vendors - LG and Samsung - who have both pitching 55in sets since January 2012 but who have yet to provide a solid timeline for their products' availability.”

“The OLED sets may look stunning, and by fully compatible with current 2D and 3D full HD picture standards, but they're going to be too darned expensive: $10,000 for a 55in set. Initially, the 4K TVs won't be any cheaper, but punters will find it easier to justify the high price because the sets are much larger.”

“This, says DisplaySearch, will drive the market for 4K sets, pushing prices down more quickly than will be the case for their OLED rivals. Smaller 4K sets will be much cheaper to boot.”

 

[BMXTRIX]

I think one of the biggest factors is the OLED is about as much of a myth as 4k, but manufacturers are likely to be able to get their tech around 4k and OLED continues to be the myth.

The continued announcements of OLED coming next year have been repeated for the last 3 or 4 years. LG continues to be about the biggest offender of these 'next year' claims, and simply has failed to deliver.

Good enough is good enough, but this is all about marketing and cost. The 4k assembly line is going to be expensive to create, but I expect it to happen. It will generate buzz and will give people a reason to buy. OLED will generate buzz, but it appears to be impossible to create.

I would rather see OLED than 4k on the market, but considering the 'next year' promise that is wearing out as we start to see some versions of 4k displays already coming to market, it seems like there is already a step down the 4k line. Both will come to the market nearly simultaneously, but I really don't expect OLED to take off with consumers if they follow the extremely slow roll out they've followed thusfar.

But, I'm NOT on that end of the business scene, so I'm open to both things rolling along.