3 center channels

[TankTop5]

Just thinking here but why not run 3 center channels instead of 3 R/L speakers? I’ve looked at dozens of manufacturer websites and more often than not the center channel has a little better efficiency rating and is significantly less expensive. Furthermore there is significant agreement that you set your front speakers to small on your AVR, above 60khz where a center channel will perform their best... Just wondering why nobody else has suggested this and if there’s a reason why not?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[R.Elder]

A few claim they are designed specifically for voices like Elacs UC-5. In general though it can and will work. Some speakers are now called LCR. That is Left Center and Right...

 

[lovinthehd]

Most centers are designed as a compromise for placement under/over a tv. You might try this article https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/center-channel-designs-1 IMO the ideal is to use the same speaker all across the front, especially with an acoustically transparent screen. If I had to use a "center" speaker I'd like to try the Ascend Horizon center with the Raal tweeter (or even their 340SE)...supposed to be a very nice speaker one way or the other....think there was an Energy speaker a while back well regarded for either duty....

 

[ryanosaur]

I agree with Lovin’ on this. The centers we mostly know are glorified bookshelf speakers. If you are lucky, the crossover is optimized for horizontal usage. Not in all cases, though. A 3-way center is great to have, but pretty much guarantees that you can’t tip it upright because of the placement of the mid and tweet, whereas a more traditional MTM layout can usually be repositioned (see Outlaw LCRs as an example).
That said, I wouldn’t want to listen to center channels as my stereo/2-channel system if for no other reason than they don’t usually deliver the output down low to cover the lower frequencies common in music. I’m not saying that 4 and 5” mid-woofers can’t be musical or provide bass, but in most such speakers they will require propping up with a sub. Even ‘flagship’ level standmounts are generally considered needing assistance, especially in a larger room.
Now in terms of where center channels and mains perform their best regarding the avr crossover, I think it’s important to remember that this is more a function of protecting the drivers in your speaker. Propped up with a good sub, sure, it’s not a huge deal unless your speakers are already on the high side. There are different schools of thought on setting that avr xo: I had heard 1 octave above your speaker’s f3, and I think Ed from SVS recommends 1/2 octave above. An 18hz frequency doesn’t just vanish from the signal because of the xo, it is diminished in terms of dB, though. I know this from first hand experience when I ran an 18Hz tone and saw my 7” drivers working even though they are crossed at 80Hz. I had the volume down... and 2 octaves of diminished output, but those drivers were definitely getting the signal!
Consider also the impact this has on the subwoofers performance. The higher you have to set your xo at, the more work that sub needs to do at frequencies where some say localization can be heard. Most agree that between 100 and 120, you can start to detect the sub, others say over 120. A few claim 80 can be detected.
All of this is my late night, just got back from the restaurant and need to blow off steam and adrenaline way of saying you can, but consider the bigger picture. There is a lot more at play than saving money.

 

[Poofables]

You can absolutely use three centers across the front. It’s fairly common practice if a screens width doesn’t allow for proper placement of towers to the left and right. The centers just it under it.

This may not get you the best stereo imaging for music as the woofers are on the sides of the midrange and tweeter, but for a theatre it will be fine.

 

[snakeeyes]

I agree with Lovin’ on this. The centers we mostly know are glorified bookshelf speakers. If you are lucky, the crossover is optimized for horizontal usage. Not in all cases, though. A 3-way center is great to have, but pretty much guarantees that you can’t tip it upright because of the placement of the mid and tweet, whereas a more traditional MTM layout can usually be repositioned (see Outlaw LCRs as an example).
That said, I wouldn’t want to listen to center channels as my stereo/2-channel system if for no other reason than they don’t usually deliver the output down low to cover the lower frequencies common in music. I’m not saying that 4 and 5” mid-woofers can’t be musical or provide bass, but in most such speakers they will require propping up with a sub. Even ‘flagship’ level standmounts are generally considered needing assistance, especially in a larger room.
Now in terms of where center channels and mains perform their best regarding the avr crossover, I think it’s important to remember that this is more a function of protecting the drivers in your speaker. Propped up with a good sub, sure, it’s not a huge deal unless your speakers are already on the high side. There are different schools of thought on setting that avr xo: I had heard 1 octave above your speaker’s f3, and I think Ed from SVS recommends 1/2 octave above. An 18hz frequency doesn’t just vanish from the signal because of the xo, it is diminished in terms of dB, though. I know this from first hand experience when I ran an 18Hz tone and saw my 7” drivers working even though they are crossed at 80Hz. I had the volume down... and 2 octaves of diminished output, but those drivers were definitely getting the signal!
Consider also the impact this has on the subwoofers performance. The higher you have to set your xo at, the more work that sub needs to do at frequencies where some say localization can be heard. Most agree that between 100 and 120, you can start to detect the sub, others say over 120. A few claim 80 can be detected.
All of this is my late night, just got back from the restaurant and need to blow off steam and adrenaline way of saying you can, but consider the bigger picture. There is a lot more at play than saving money.

With the Phil BMRs you have, I’m sure they do well as a center on their side, horizontal (tweeter rotated). I’m not 100% sold on vertical style.

 

[ryanosaur]

With the Phil BMRs you have, I’m sure they do well as a center on their side, horizontal (tweeter rotated). I’m not 100% sold on vertical style.

As soon as I have a chance, I’m inspecting my BMRs... was hoping Dennis would be available to ask, but I’m gonna just open em up and check the xos... if they are the same, I’m gonna go vertical for that center. On the other hand, if he modified the xo for horizontal placement... not touching it, at least until I get the proper testing gear to rebuild the xo. talked to a few cats about the orientation, and am getting swayed.

 

[shadyJ]

As soon as I have a chance, I’m inspecting my BMRs... was hoping Dennis would be available to ask, but I’m gonna just open em up and check the xos... if they are the same, I’m gonna go vertical for that center. On the other hand, if he modified the xo for horizontal placement... not touching it, at least until I get the proper testing gear to rebuild the xo. talked to a few cats about the orientation, and am getting swayed.

My advice is don't try to fool around with the BMR's crossover. First of all, the way that speaker is arranged, you will have a very difficult time just getting to the crossover without damaging the speaker. Removing it would be a huge pain without taking apart the cabinet. That is a nightmare that I wouldn't want to deal with. You would have to take the woofer out, take out some stuffing, disconnect all the drivers, and, if you are very lucky, unscrew the PCB board. That is assuming it is not using any adhesives on the cabinet. Getting it out of the woofer hole without scratching the finish will be tough. It is a tight space in that cabinet. Also remember never to remove the tectonic BMR driver, it is in its own compartment, and the seal must be tight for it to work properly, so just don't take it out.

If you want to know if the crossover is the same (I suspect that it would be), a much easier way to test that is to simply rotate the tweeter by 90 degrees and measure the frequency response of the speaker. If it measures the same, the crossover is the same, or at least similar enough not to matter.

 

[shadyJ]

The problem with using most center speakers in a horizontal configuration as the front stage three is that most centers are basic MTM designs which really hurt their off-axis coverage, so they don't actually have very wide coverage. The most common solution to that is using a three-way center where a midrange driver is mounted under the tweeter. You will still get off-axis interference patterns with the woofers, but that will mostly happen below the room's transition frequency where the room acoustics will mess up the response anyway. Some center speakers are so good they could easily be used for all three front stage channels. One I really liked was the Paradigm Premier 500C, and my guess is that the 600C is even better.

 

[snakeeyes]

The problem with using most center speakers in a horizontal configuration as the front stage three is that most centers are basic MTM designs which really hurt their off-axis coverage, so they don't actually have very wide coverage. The most common solution to that is using a three-way center where a midrange driver is mounted under the tweeter. You will still get off-axis interference patterns with the woofers, but that will mostly happen below the room's transition frequency where the room acoustics will mess up the response anyway. Some center speakers are so good they could easily be used for all three front stage channels. One I really liked was the Paradigm Premier 500C, and my guess is that the 600C is even better.

Is the 500c good horizontal or you mean just when vertical?

Edit: Oops this is covered in your Dec review.

 

[ryanosaur]

My advice is don't try to fool around with the BMR's crossover. First of all, the way that speaker is arranged, you will have a very difficult time just getting to the crossover without damaging the speaker. Removing it would be a huge pain without taking apart the cabinet. That is a nightmare that I wouldn't want to deal with. You would have to take the woofer out, take out some stuffing, disconnect all the drivers, and, if you are very lucky, unscrew the PCB board. That is assuming it is not using any adhesives on the cabinet. Getting it out of the woofer hole without scratching the finish will be tough. It is a tight space in that cabinet. Also remember never to remove the tectonic BMR driver, it is in its own compartment, and the seal must be tight for it to work properly, so just don't take it out.

If you want to know if the crossover is the same (I suspect that it would be), a much easier way to test that is to simply rotate the tweeter by 90 degrees and measure the frequency response of the speaker. If it measures the same, the crossover is the same, or at least similar enough not to matter.

Ha! I'm not going to do anything that invasive!!! Definitely gonna pop out the ScanSpeak... Carefully!, and take a look inside. If I can't get to the XO... well, I can't. My suspicion is it is not modified. Dennis seemed to indicate that he just installs the Raal turned 90deg for the center. There was no extra charge, which I would expect, if he were modifying the XO.
But until I build a new rack for my equipment, i'm still married to that Metro Rack I'm using for everything. But I do very much want to get that out of there and just have the 3 speakers and the TV on that front wall.

 

[Poofables]

The problem with using most center speakers in a horizontal configuration as the front stage three is that most centers are basic MTM designs which really hurt their off-axis coverage, so they don't actually have very wide coverage. The most common solution to that is using a three-way center where a midrange driver is mounted under the tweeter. You will still get off-axis interference patterns with the woofers, but that will mostly happen below the room's transition frequency where the room acoustics will mess up the response anyway. Some center speakers are so good they could easily be used for all three front stage channels. One I really liked was the Paradigm Premier 500C, and my guess is that the 600C is even better.

The 600c is a great speaker for the money. It’s freaking huge though! Easily bigger than the Presteige 500c which it copies for configuration.

The Premier 600c would be an excellent center channel to use three of under a screen.

 

[shadyJ]

The 600c is a great speaker for the money. It’s freaking huge though! Easily bigger than the Presteige 500c which it copies for configuration.

The Premier 600c would be an excellent center channel to use three of under a screen.

The 600C doesn't quite copy the 500C in design. The 600C does something pretty cool- so the inner two bass drivers are active drivers with motors, however the outer two drivers look the same but are actually passive radiators. This means that the 600C will behave a lot like the 500C but have significantly more powerful, deeper bass. If the outer two drivers on the 600C were also active bass drivers, that could very well leave the entire woofer range to be a lobing mess. I like the approach that Paradigm took with these centers.

 

[Poofables]

I’m sorry I meant 55c not 500c.

 

[snakeeyes]

The 600C doesn't quite copy the 500C in design. The 600C does something pretty cool- so the inner two bass drivers are active drivers with motors, however the outer two drivers look the same but are actually passive radiators. This means that the 600C will behave a lot like the 500C but have significantly more powerful, deeper bass. If the outer two drivers on the 600C were also active bass drivers, that could very well leave the entire woofer range to be a lobing mess. I like the approach that Paradigm took with these centers.

I read the Paradigm review again. Great review! The 500C center looks like a nice option. On the towers and center was your AVR crossover around 80hz?

 

[shadyJ]

I read the Paradigm review again. Great review! The 500C center looks like a nice option. On the towers and center was your AVR crossover around 80hz?

I would have used 80 Hz when subs were used. Usually I only use the subs for some movies for tower speaker reviews. Most of the time the subs stay off.

 

[j_garcia]

I used to use 3 identical MTM speakers as mains. It makes for a very seamless front stage IMO.