$2K Receiver or Emotiva UPA-7 + UMC-1/mid-range receiver

[murthyvs]

Hi all -

I am in a dilemma whether to buy a receiver or separates.

My receiver shortlist:
Pioneer Elite SC37 .. SQ better than my Denon 4308CI.
Denon 4311 .. didnt get a chance to audition but feature set looks good.

These days I am reading lot of good things about Emotiva and I am thinking of UPA-7 + UMC-1 or UPA-7 + some mid-range receiver like Pioneer 1120/VSX 33.

Primary use: 40% BD movies (PS3) + 30% HTPC + 30% music

Budget: $2K but flexible upto $2.5K

My speakers are Aperion's 2x6T + 1x6C + 2x5DB + 2x4B. Sub: SVS PB12-Plus.

Can you please share your thoughts?

Thanks a lot!

 

[ichigo]

Depends. If your housing's electrical wiring is lousy (like mine), it's impossible to get rid of ground loop hum once you add power amps to the equation.

 

[Seth=L]

Pioneer Elite SC37 .. SQ better than my Denon 4308CI.

How did you draw this conclusion?

You could keep the Denon you have and use it as a preamplifier if you feel you are in need of more power. The AVR-4308ci is certainly better as a preamplifier than the budget models you mentioned. Do you need HDMI 1.4 for 3D or audio return channel? Is your display HDMI 1.4 or do you plan to purchase a HDMI 1.4 complient display as well as sources?

 

[JJMP50]

About a year ago I was considering upgrading my receiver (yammy rx-v659) and went with an Emo UPA-5 instead. Couldn't be happier although I still don't have HDMI. In my case that only effects my choice of BR player (need analog outs). As to the ground loop, I had one when I first hooked up the UPA-5, but after switching plugs around (the Fios box seemed to be the culprit) it went away.

 

[PENG]

I have to agree with Seth, absolutely not because I happen to have the 4308. I went with the 4308 based on my satisfying expereience with the 1705 and 3805 that I also have.

I recently auditioned the SC37. It was in a dealer's demo room using a pair of $2K speakers that I do like, listening to both jazz and classical music using an 83SE. It was obviously far from being an A/B comparison, but that experience certainly did not change my belief that AVRs within a similar price range would not, and should not sound much different. In fact that system sounded like what some people would describe as "have a veiled over the speakers", just a very thin veil mind you... I immediately attributed that to the speakers and their placement, rather than the amp itself due to my belief/bias.

I am not trying to pour cold water on your urge to upgrade but I would encourage you to not draw a conclusion until you are sure and have considered other factors. Sound quality is affected mostly by the quality of the transfer (the source disc), the speakers and the acoustic envirnoment the speakers are in. Entry level AVRs/amps or even media players (especially if you use the anlog outs) could have major impact too but when you get into the class of mid range AVRs such as the Pioneer SC25, Yamha RX-V1800, Denon AVR-380X, the effect on SQ are likely not audible to most people except for perhaps a small % who have exceptional hearings, or golden ears (those who would likely fail in a controlled blind test) or people who simply follow the flow and repeat things they read from audiophile reviewers (hearsayers). They would typically use terms such as ...sound stage, immediacy,and other hard to define terms, to describe the differences they hear.

To me, if replacing my 4308 with a SC37 or anything under 3K I can hear better SQ that I define as sounding closer to "the real thing", I will jump on it right away. Unfortunately I know $3,000 spent this way will not buy me audible improvement after I am after. It is much more difficult to upgrade speakers for the same goal for the obvious reasons, cost being one. In my case, I prefer to spend that kind of money on source discs and vinyls that I can actually enjoy, among other things. Adding power amps to an existing AVR is a different matter. I do that too because I thought my speakers needed it. It turns out there is no SQ improvements either but I leave the amps on. Whether you will benefit from adding power amps or not depend on your listening habit, room and speakers. More power is always better.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I agree with Seth too.

There is no way the Pioneer or any receiver sounds better than the Denon 4308 (double-blinded test, level-matched), unless the Denon is defective somehow.

I don't have a direct comparison, but let's just look at 2 similar AVRs:

From Home Theater Magazine:

Denon 3808: FR 20Hz - 20kHz +/- 0.04dB, THD 0.004%, Crosstalk -88dB, SNR -106 dB

Pioneer Elite SC-07: FR 20Hz - 20kHz +/- 0.3dB, THD 0.006%, Crosstalk -101dB, SNR -105dB

Both look exceptional, and you would not hear any differences.

But if you were going to be picky, and over-analize, then the Denon beats the Pioneer in 3 out of the 4 categories on specs.

 

[murthyvs]

Thanks all for your valuable suggestions
• How did you draw this conclusion?
Not a true A/B but it sounded good in a dealer’s room with Def Tech

• Do you need HDMI 1.4 for 3D or audio return channel?
Yes, I want to be future proof with 3D and ARC. I will update my display sometime next year.

• I would encourage you to not draw a conclusion until you are sure and have considered other factors.
I agree 100% with you in terms of comparison, source material, speakers and room acoustics. But after playing one year with 4308, the SQ is not satisfying to my ears (esp. with movies). Direct mode is real good for my stereo music but when it comes to movies it is sub-par at least with my speaker setup and Audyssey MultiEQXT (with $100 upgrade). I expect Audyssey to correct my room problems. Network radio is patchy even with Ethernet connection.. sometimes it connects sometimes it doesn’t!

• There is no way the Pioneer or any receiver sounds better than the Denon 4308 (double-blinded test, level-matched), unless the Denon is defective somehow.
I was under the same impression when I bought Denon 4308CI but my ears like sound from Pioneer Elites. I did A/B between Denon and Onkyo at the time of my purchase and without any second thought liked Denon.

Can you please let me know why Denon 4308CI is better than Pioneer SC37 (excluding HDMI 1.4/3D capability)?

 

[Seth=L]

I believe the 4308CI will have more headroom than the Pioneer, if for no other reason than the power supply in the Pioneer is on the small side, even for a class d amplifier. If you feel the 4308Ci is lacking for movies when it pertains to dynamics, you will gain nothing buy purchasing another receiver. Adding amplification is the only logical choice.

I'd recommend waiting on a receiver purchase, perhaps invest in amplification now. When you decide to upgrade your display and source a more cost effective preamplifier solution may be available that has the features you need for the new generation of HDMI 1.4 equipment.

 

[Seth=L]

Er... maybe not.

http://www.hometheatermag.com/receivers/denon_avr-4810ci_av_receiver/index4.html

The AVR-4810Ci seems to fall face flat when asked to deliver large amounts of power for all channels. The Onkyo TX-NR1*** series pulls better numbers than that.

 

[PENG]

Yes, I want to be future proof with 3D and ARC. I will update my display sometime next year.

In that case, you need to upgrade. You can get around it without 1.4 but it is more fun and convenient to just get an AVR that has 3D capability.

I expect Audyssey to correct my room problems. Network radio is patchy even with Ethernet connection.. sometimes it connects sometimes it doesn’t!

Did you use all 8 positions and follow the step by step instruction provided by Audyssey? I noticed major improvements after performing the procedure. Just a few days ago I bought a new 5 channel SACD and had almost got an heart attack from some of the huge transient SPL spikes.

I am sure the SC37 offers excellent sound quality and I don't believe the 4308 cann do better. That being said, I kind of agree with what I read in this review:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/component/content/article/313.html?start=2

The following is taken from the second last paragraph (The conclusions)

" I think our own Brian Florian said it best that nowadays we are after the “True Sound”, meaning the receiver's reproduction of the source material is so true to the original that it doesn't call attention to itself as “bright”, “warm”, or any other adjective. The Denon fits that bill. It takes anything you throw at it and lets your speakers shine."

Since you do want to have HDMI1.4, the SC37 is a great choice, I hope you get good money for your 4308, or put it to good alternate use.

 

[murthyvs]

Do you think its better to upgrade to a new AVR rather than Emotiva separates?

 

[ZeGhostbear]

Do you think its better to upgrade to a new AVR rather than Emotiva separates?

I personally think you would get better results with separates. You could even stay inside your budget. You should consider the Emotiva XPA-5 (or UPA-5) with an Onkyo PR-SC5508 or Marantz AV7005 (both of which have first looks posted here).

 

[Stereodude]

Friends don't let friend buy Emotiva pre/pros. Their amps are nice, but their pre/pros seem bug ridden.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Friends don't let friend buy Emotiva pre/pros. Their amps are nice, but their pre/pros seem bug ridden.

Are their pre-pros really THAT bad?

As with a lot of complex, computer-based electronics, there will be firmware issues, but they usually work out eventually.

Even the $7,500 Denon AVP-A1HDCI has firmware issues, and it is driving our fearless leader Gene crazy lately!

Personally I don't enjoy the aesthetics of Emotiva. Everyone has different tastes. But if you are fond of their aesthetics, I think it is fine to buy Emotiva amps and pre-pros. I think they have a great customer service. Also their amps and pre-pros have a 5 yr warranty, right?

 

[nacz3]

Hi all -

I am in a dilemma whether to buy a receiver or separates.

My receiver shortlist:
Pioneer Elite SC37 .. SQ better than my Denon 4308CI.
Denon 4311 .. didnt get a chance to audition but feature set looks good.

These days I am reading lot of good things about Emotiva and I am thinking of UPA-7 + UMC-1 or UPA-7 + some mid-range receiver like Pioneer 1120/VSX 33.

Primary use: 40% BD movies (PS3) + 30% HTPC + 30% music

Budget: $2K but flexible upto $2.5K

My speakers are Aperion's 2x6T + 1x6C + 2x5DB + 2x4B. Sub: SVS PB12-Plus.

Can you please share your thoughts?

Thanks a lot!

You may have already but take a look at Emotiva's forums below on the UMC-1 and you can get an idea for yourself of what the firmware situation is and the various bugs people are reporting. Emotiva's forums under "Processors" is the main place for updates on status on firmware vs the UMC-1's product page.

emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=preamps

If you are looking at 40% Blu-ray on PS-3 and 30% HTPC then I suggest you look through the forums as there are owners out there with issues with both.

The A#1 thing that I find extremely annoying on the UMC-1 is that it take a second or two to lock onto the digital audio via HDMI when playing video or audio files from my WDTV Live and OPPO BDP-83 for each file in a playlist or folder. If the final firmware doesn't fix this then it's a dealbreaker for me. The latest firmware released in August still has this issue.

The #2 thing is that the firmware update process on the UMC-1 is extremely aggravating (and I do know computers). I was able to update firmware via my Vista 64 machine and on a clean install of XP laptop I have but there are problems with Emotiva's loader software and the website Emonatics.com had a more stable USB driver (I had USB connection problems before using the driver there). Updating the firmware has been anywhere from a 30 min to 3 hour process for me due to the UMC-1 not being consistently recognized by either of my PCs (and I was sure to be using a powered USB 2.0 port). My Sunfire's update via RS-232 was very simple and painless in comparison.

#3 is that their Emo-Q room correction is still in the beta stage (still) as it has never worked correctly for me and does not produce repeatable results except for consistently failing the ambient noise test. This was thought to be a firmware issue but it's only recently been mentioned by a poster on the Emotiva forums that they had some bad mikes sent out that may be the problem. I don't think I've seen anything posted by Emotiva yet. I've had my UMC since February and emailed last week about a new mike to their support with no response yet.

Some of the UMC-1's features, such as all channel stereo, is a selection on its menu, but it still doesn't do anything. There's a thread on this as well on the Emotiva forums. Personally, I'd use all channel stereo for music.

I went from a Sunfire Ultimate Receiver to the UMC-1 with an XPA-5 for my Martin Logan 5.1 setup of Ascents, Cinema, Scenarios, and Descent Sub.

There wasn't a huge jump in SQ for me for music but going from the analog outs on the OPPO to the Sunfire to using HDMI with the UMC-1 was an improvement.

Personally, I've been disappointed with the UMC-1 as promised firmware fixes have yet to materialize and progress has been slow. I want to give the "final" firmware a chance when Emotiva will start the 30 day return clock. I plan on checking out the Denon 4311 when it's available. If it sounds good in my setup, then I will probably be returning the UMC-1 and selling off the XPA-5 (I will test the Denon with the XPA-5 also before making that decision).

In your situation, I think I'd try the Denon 4311 based on it's feature set and buy a used Emotiva amp separately if you felt you needed more power. I don't have any positives/negatives on the Pioneer.

Definitely wait on the UMC-1 until the final firmware also comes out. Also take into account that the UMC-1 doesn't have a true video pass-through and that this cannot be changed via a firmware update. This may or may not be a big deal to you. The image quality for me was still very good.

I don't have anything against Emotiva as this is just my experience. Their forums are just okay for help as there seems to be a lot of Fanboyism (RE: ATI/NVIDIA or INTEL/AMD) on the brand--a couple of issues/questions to others for replicating my problem were met with responses by posters who didn't even own a UMC-1 yet.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

For amps, this is what I would get:

ATI AT1805: http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1287760462

This is practically a brand new unit with the full 7 yrs warranty. It is rated @ 180WPC x 5ch into 8 ohms. But as with all ATI amps, they are UNDERATED. By that I mean 180WPC translates into 200WPC x 5 when you actually measure it.

I would offer $1,000 for it. Asking price is $1,200. Retail price is $2,200.

I've bought amps from them before with 100% confidence. They are ATI authorized dealer.

ATI make amps for Lexicon, JBL, Earthquake Sound, Outlaw Audio, and others. They weigh like a tank and are built like a tank to last forever.

 

[Stereodude]

Are their pre-pros really THAT bad?

Well, I wouldn't buy one, and I certainly wouldn't recommend someone else buy something that I wouldn't.

 

[murthyvs]

Thanks for your input. Given the firmware limitations, I am taking UMC-1 off my list.

I am favoring Denon 4311 (hoping street price of $1600) + Emotiva XPA5 ($800) = $2400.

SC37 is still high on list but the Denon's feature is hard to ignore!!

You may have already but take a look at Emotiva's forums below on the UMC-1 and you can get an idea for yourself of what the firmware situation is and the various bugs people are reporting. Emotiva's forums under "Processors" is the main place for updates on status on firmware vs the UMC-1's product page.

emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=preamps

If you are looking at 40% Blu-ray on PS-3 and 30% HTPC then I suggest you look through the forums as there are owners out there with issues with both.

The A#1 thing that I find extremely annoying on the UMC-1 is that it take a second or two to lock onto the digital audio via HDMI when playing video or audio files from my WDTV Live and OPPO BDP-83 for each file in a playlist or folder. If the final firmware doesn't fix this then it's a dealbreaker for me. The latest firmware released in August still has this issue.

The #2 thing is that the firmware update process on the UMC-1 is extremely aggravating (and I do know computers). I was able to update firmware via my Vista 64 machine and on a clean install of XP laptop I have but there are problems with Emotiva's loader software and the website Emonatics.com had a more stable USB driver (I had USB connection problems before using the driver there). Updating the firmware has been anywhere from a 30 min to 3 hour process for me due to the UMC-1 not being consistently recognized by either of my PCs (and I was sure to be using a powered USB 2.0 port). My Sunfire's update via RS-232 was very simple and painless in comparison.

#3 is that their Emo-Q room correction is still in the beta stage (still) as it has never worked correctly for me and does not produce repeatable results except for consistently failing the ambient noise test. This was thought to be a firmware issue but it's only recently been mentioned by a poster on the Emotiva forums that they had some bad mikes sent out that may be the problem. I don't think I've seen anything posted by Emotiva yet. I've had my UMC since February and emailed last week about a new mike to their support with no response yet.

Some of the UMC-1's features, such as all channel stereo, is a selection on its menu, but it still doesn't do anything. There's a thread on this as well on the Emotiva forums. Personally, I'd use all channel stereo for music.

I went from a Sunfire Ultimate Receiver to the UMC-1 with an XPA-5 for my Martin Logan 5.1 setup of Ascents, Cinema, Scenarios, and Descent Sub.

There wasn't a huge jump in SQ for me for music but going from the analog outs on the OPPO to the Sunfire to using HDMI with the UMC-1 was an improvement.

Personally, I've been disappointed with the UMC-1 as promised firmware fixes have yet to materialize and progress has been slow. I want to give the "final" firmware a chance when Emotiva will start the 30 day return clock. I plan on checking out the Denon 4311 when it's available. If it sounds good in my setup, then I will probably be returning the UMC-1 and selling off the XPA-5 (I will test the Denon with the XPA-5 also before making that decision).

In your situation, I think I'd try the Denon 4311 based on it's feature set and buy a used Emotiva amp separately if you felt you needed more power. I don't have any positives/negatives on the Pioneer.

Definitely wait on the UMC-1 until the final firmware also comes out. Also take into account that the UMC-1 doesn't have a true video pass-through and that this cannot be changed via a firmware update. This may or may not be a big deal to you. The image quality for me was still very good.

I don't have anything against Emotiva as this is just my experience. Their forums are just okay for help as there seems to be a lot of Fanboyism (RE: ATI/NVIDIA or INTEL/AMD) on the brand--a couple of issues/questions to others for replicating my problem were met with responses by posters who didn't even own a UMC-1 yet.

 

[murthyvs]

Thanks for your input. I am new to amplifiers and dont know much. I am little scared to spend $1000 on pre-owned gear. Do you have any idea on how ATI AT1805 would compare to Emotiva XPA-5?

For amps, this is what I would get:

ATI AT1805: http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1287760462

This is practically a brand new unit with the full 7 yrs warranty. It is rated @ 180WPC x 5ch into 8 ohms. But as with all ATI amps, they are UNDERATED. By that I mean 180WPC translates into 200WPC x 5 when you actually measure it.

I would offer $1,000 for it. Asking price is $1,200. Retail price is $2,200.

I've bought amps from them before with 100% confidence. They are ATI authorized dealer.

ATI make amps for Lexicon, JBL, Earthquake Sound, Outlaw Audio, and others. They weigh like a tank and are built like a tank to last forever.

 

[Warpdrv]

ATI makes great amps, and they stand behind their products very well.

I have bought many used products from audiogon over the years and never had a problem. You can shop with confidence, and that seller has a very very good rep.

Personally I would go for the ATI for the many years of reliable service and top notch build quality.... and 7 year warranty, you can't go wrong.

If I was you I would also look heavily at the Marantz AV7005 as suggested by ZeGhostbear if your going to go with an external amp. Not to say the Denon isn't any good... I'm going to be picking one up when they come out, to see what it can do for my small system, see how it measures up against my Anthem D2v....

Good luck in your hunt....