$2000 or less set of towers

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sledhead1

Enthusiast
Hi, I am looking to upgrade my front speakers in a 5.1 setup used mostly for home theater. 80/20. i have 602 front, and 601 rears and a lcr 600 center and a ed a7-350. I am looking for something that will play louder. The old lady likes to crank it every now and then. What would anyone recommend? I have been waiting for emotiva to release there new ref line but I haven't heard an eta yet.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
If they're going to be mostly HT speakers I'd take a look at these

CBT36 Line Array Speaker Kit Pair 301-980

However, they are a sort of DIY, but man I bet they sound awesome.

You still may be able to get a pair of Philharmonic 1s which would put you under budget and get you a tremendous pair of speakers. I believe the phil 2s are around $2000 exactly.

philharmonicaudio.com

OR

SongTower Images

OR

SongBird - home

OR

Sierra Tower Bamboo Loudspeaker

Verus Grand Tower Speaker - Aperion Audio

These are only a few suggestions. Lots of good stuff out there, but salk and Philharmonic are excellent and so are those CBT 36.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
All of the speakers fuzz suggested are very nice speakers, but playing loud wasn't necessarily the primary design goal with any of them. Granted, just by virtue of having more drivers and thus more surface area to move the air, any of them are capable of playing louder than your B&W 602 bookshelf speakers, but the question is: just how much louder are you looking for?

There's also the very important issue of having your front soundstage all match sonically, especially for movies where so much of what you hear comes from the center speaker. I'm not sure if you have a separate budget for the center, but just spending $2000 on front towers isn't going to cut it if you're keeping your current center speaker - not for movies, anyhow.

Then there's the issue of amplifier power. One way to get louder output using your current amps is to simply get more efficient speakers that will play louder using the same amount of power you're using now with your B&W 602. But there are also speakers that are only slightly more efficient, but are capable of playing much louder, so long as you have the amplifier power available. People don't realize that it takes twice the Wattage for a meager 3dB increase. It takes 10x the Wattage for a 10dB increase. So if your new speakers were only 2-3dB more efficient than your current B&W speakers, you might still be in need of significantly more amplifier power in order to reach the sort of loudness you're looking for.

So really, before we go making any recommendations, we need to know what we're dealing with. We need to know your room size. We need to know how far away you are sitting from your front speakers. We need to know in you have a separate budget for a new center speaker as well, or if $2000 is what you have available to spend - because if movies are 80% of what you watch, you're going to want to upgrade all 3 of your front speakers, not just the Front L/R. We need to know what is amplifying your speakers, and whether or not you have a separate budget for new amps if necessary.

So I'll hold off on making any brand or model recommendations for now. We need more info to make sure we're giving you the most useful recommendation. It might turn out that less expensive towers are in order if you need to also fit a new center and possibly some additional amplification into your budget. And knowing your room size and seating distance will allow us to calculate exactly how much output and associated amplifier power you're going to need in order to hit the sort of loud, theater-like output that you're looking for :)
 
S

sledhead1

Enthusiast
Power is a integra 70.2. Room is a open floor plan 16x24 but is open to the kitchen and dining areas and vaulted ceilings. I will see if i can figure out how to att a drawing. Budget wise I was thinking towers for now but if I need a center Im not sure.If more power is a must I could always add a emotiva amp.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Well, starting with a big 15" 1300 Watt subwoofer is a good move with that kind of room size :) The sheer amount of air that is capable of moving is mostly a challenge for the bass, since bass is omnidirectional and a subwoofer is just going to attempt to pressurize the entire open volume of air. A sub doesn't "know" where your "theater area" ends and the rest of the kitchen and dining and high ceilings begin :p

But let's put concerns about the bass aside for now. I'm going to guess you're sitting somewhere in the range of 12 to 15 feet away from your TV screen and front speakers with a room that size. Certainly, I can understand why your little 2-way bookshelf B&W speakers are having a hard time in a room that size with that kind of seating distance!

While the Integra 70.2 is a very nice unit and certainly no slouch, it's still just an Onkyo underneath the hood and capable of about - at most - 500 Watts of power across all channels at once, and about 180 Watts max into any one speaker individually. In a big room like yours, you're losing about 4dB in SPL for every doubling of distance. So assuming your distance is about 4-5 meters, you're looking at about 80-82dB output with 1 Watt at your seat. Something in that range. At max power, they'd be tapping out at 100-104dB, but they'd likely be screeching at that output level, so I'm guessing you never quite push them that hard, since they likely start to sound pretty bad before that point - maybe a little scary :p

So yeah, I'd say you're going to want 3 new speakers across the front - considerably larger speakers that are capable of handling significantly more amplifier power, plus a new amp to really pump the Wattage into them.

Keeping closer to your budget, and also sticking with the midrange clarity and slightly laid back top end that I assume you like with your B&W speakers, one good option might be the EMP Tek E55Ti Towers with the large E56Ci center plus an Emotiva XPA-3 amp to power them all. Realistically, the EMP towers and center are about equally efficient in terms of output with just 1 Watt, but with so much more surface area, they can move a lot more air than your current 2-way bookshelf speakers, and they can absorb a lot more power, which the XPA-3 can provide. You'll be looking at a good 6dB more output and dynamic headroom with the new speakers, which is nothing to sneeze at! That's at least 4x more power and subjectively about twice as loud. Plus in-room response might get you another 3dB or so, so as much as 9dB louder from EACH speaker vs. your current B&W setup. That should easily get you to movie theater reference levels, while keeping the overall sound signature fairly close to your B&W sound that you're used to. The EMPs will likely sound a tad more forward in the midrange than what you're used to, but overall, they won't sound drastically different, the way going to a horn-loaded speaker or a line array or compression tweeter would.

You're looking at about $1250 for the towers and center plus $700 for the Emotiva XPA-3, so you're right on budget for all 3 speakers plus the amp :)

If there's more money available, some alternatives to consider would be the Paradigm Monitor 7 series, with the Monitor 11 towers and the Center 3 being the appropriate choices in terms of output capabilities in that series. $1600/pair for the towers and $600 for the center there. And again, a separate amp to really let them stretch their legs would be in order. You'd be getting a noteably different sound character going from the B&W speakers to the Paradimg Monitor 7 speakers. The Paradigms will likely sound "duller" and more "lifeless" to you at first, given their almost ruler flat response as compared to the more "colored" response of the B&W speakers. Definitely something you'd have to get used to, but once you do, you might appreciate some of the more subtle details that you start to notice that were never apparent with your current speakers.

The Ascend Sierra Tower and Horizon Center (Sierra Tower Center) with the standard NrT tweeter would be champs. You're up to $2000/pair for the towers and another $1000 for the center though - and those are the least expensive "matte black" finish. Nicer finishes are a few hundred extra. Outstanding speakers though, and worth the extra dough, as finding better speakers takes you into exponentially higher price brackets.

If you're really after just sheer, loud output, it's almost impossible to top JTR speakers. But be warned, these are basically outdoor concert speakers made affordable for home consumers. They're huge, they're ugly, they're over $1000 a piece, but they can almost literally blow the doors off of your house if you like :p Heck, they can practically blow the doors off your neighbor's houses too. They can get INSANELY loud.

Anywho, those are just some suggestions and options that should fit your needs and your budget - depending on how you want to dole your hard earned money out. Regardless, I'd suggest getting an amp to power any of these options. You'll want the 400 Watts of dynamic power for that extra 3dB of headroom for big peaks in movies and transients in music. :)

Hope that helps!
 
N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
The Salk SongTower's are the best $2000 speaker I've heard, even compared to the Sierra Tower's. YMMV and to each their own.
 
C

cschang

Audioholic Chief
The Salk SongTower's are the best $2000 speaker I've heard, even compared to the Sierra Tower's. YMMV and to each their own.
There are definitely differing opinions on that subject. Definitely a "must hear for yourself" situation.

But you feel the SongTowers are better than the Philharmonic 2's? I thought it was the opposite.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I really don't think it's fair to say that one great speaker is "better" than another similarly excellent speaker.

Sure, it's easy to differentiate between a great accurate speaker and an inaccurate speaker.

And even though there are differences among all the accurate great sounding speakers, they do sound more alike than do differ.

So I really don't think it's fair to say that one great speaker is "better" than another similarly excellent speaker.

In my mind, Philharmonic, Salk, and Ascend are equally great. And only minor personal preferences will decide the winner. But this will be case to case, and not ever clear cut for everyone in the world.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
There are definitely differing opinions on that subject. Definitely a "must hear for yourself" situation.

But you feel the SongTowers are better than the Philharmonic 2's? I thought it was the opposite.
Dennis Murphy thinks the Phil2 sounds like the Soundscape 10. Since Dennis designed both, he might just have something there.:D
 
D

Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
Dennis Murphy thinks the Phil2 sounds like the Soundscape 10. Since Dennis designed both, he might just have something there.:D
Well--"like" isn't the same as "just like." They have the same sonic signature, but the SS10's go way lower than the Phil 2's, and the Salks will image deeper because of the signature baffle shape, which minimizes the area around the tweeter.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Well--"like" isn't the same as "just like." They have the same sonic signature, but the SS10's go way lower than the Phil 2's, and the Salks will image deeper because of the signature baffle shape, which minimizes the area around the tweeter.
But at 6 times the price? I think ADTG can easily convince me that are "just like"="almost the same"..:D Okay may be in a small room and/or give the 2's a nice sub or two.:confused:
 
psbfan9

psbfan9

Audioholic Samurai
Hi sledhead1,

For loud, mostly movie speakers, I would recommend a pair EMPtek E55Ti's. Well below budget, but don't let the price fool you, these are great speakers. I own pair and really like them. The EMP E55Ti's come with a 5 year warranty and a 30 day money back return policy with free shipping both ways.

Here's a review:

EMPTek Impression E55Ti Recommendations & Conclusion — Reviews and News from Audioholics

EMP Tek E55Ti Tower Speakers

If you don't care for the E55Ti's, you may want to consider Klipsch Reference Series RF-82 II towers. Very loud and good, deep bass.

Good luck
 
S

sledhead1

Enthusiast
Well the list so far isnt too bad. I can listen to the rf82 and monitor 11 at my local deal, who also gives me sweet deals. As for EMP, salk, Ascend, and phils I'll have to look into Canadian shipping rates and policies for returns. How do they all compare for power requirements and volume? I assume they all have good centers as well?
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
But at 6 times the price? I think ADTG can easily convince me that are "just like"="almost the same"..:D Okay may be in a small room and/or give the 2's a nice sub or two.:confused:
Well, okay, okay, I should have said they sounded "similar". :D
 
billy p

billy p

Audioholic Ninja
Looks like emp wont ship to Canada:(
Don's think the other centers can touch this...;)
That's my tiny rx v1800 below just to give and idea of how big the Sierra Horizon is....:D

005[1].jpg


Well the list so far isnt too bad. I can listen to the rf82 and monitor 11 at my local deal, who also gives me sweet deals. As for EMP, salk, Ascend, and phils I'll have to look into Canadian shipping rates and policies for returns. How do they all compare for power requirements and volume? I assume they all have good centres as well?
 
D

DS-21

Full Audioholic
Don's think the other centers can touch this...;)
That's my tiny rx v1800 below just to give and idea of how big the Sierra Horizon is....:D

View attachment 10232
There's no such thing as a distinct center channel, any more than a distinct "left" speaker or "right" speaker. (OK, there are some speakers available in mirror-imaged pairs, that are marked right or left, though a serious listener will typically use each in both positions - unless the baffle is also angled, a la NHT 3.3 - and see which measures and sounds better in that room. But that's different from wholesale differences in cabinet shape, driver layout, etc.)

There are only mains speakers, which form the soundstage as a unit.

They should be identical.

Aside from that, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the KEF Q900 in this thread. They're under budget, and while perhaps more Ikea than Herman Miller in terms of finish quality, superior-sounding loudspeakers. Unlike most of the speakers mentioned in this thread, they have a basically correct design: they constrain the tweeter and in doing so maintain relatively constant directivity through the midrange.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Unlike most of the speakers mentioned in this thread, they have a basically correct design: they constrain the tweeter and in doing so maintain relatively constant directivity through the midrange.
Wait.....which speakers don't gave a correct design?

Isn't the most important thing how they measure and how they sound, regardless of design?
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Well the list so far isnt too bad. I can listen to the rf82 and monitor 11 at my local deal, who also gives me sweet deals. As for EMP, salk, Ascend, and phils I'll have to look into Canadian shipping rates and policies for returns. How do they all compare for power requirements and volume? I assume they all have good centers as well?
Looks like emp wont ship to Canada:(
EMP doesn't support Canadian shipping on their own website, but the Audioholics Store does :) I'm not sure how a possible return would work though, it'd be worth getting in touch with the Audioholics Store beforehand if you're just wanting to try an audition.

The E65Ci would be the matching Center speaker for the E55Ti Towers.

As mentioned, Ascend has their Horizon (aka Sierra Tower Center) to match the Sierra Tower speakers. That Horizon Center is pretty much my main reason for recommending Ascend in the $2000-ish/pair tower price range. It's a VERY competitive price point, and there are many very good options for towers from many brands. Philharmonic doesn't have a standard Center that they offer - although they will custom build, so there's that option. Salk has the SongCenter in their Song Series, which is the series that falls into this price category.

The desire to have a horizontal center speaker for aesthetic and placement reasons makes the center position a unique challenge in home theater. It is also a vitally important channel as the vast majority of dialogue in movies is mixed into the center channel and thus a huge portion of the sound winds up coming from that position. So to me, having a perfect sonic match in that position is all-important. I'd sooner run my system without a center speaker and just using the Front L&R speakers to create a "phantom" center than use a center speaker that doesn't perfectly match the Front L/R sonically. Doing so with a horizontal speaker can be very difficult. The tweeter over mid-range driver flanked by the bass woofers on either side arrangement tends to work quite well though. The Paradigm Center 3 and Ascend Horizon both use this driver arrangement - and in my experience anyway, it works :)
 
D

DS-21

Full Audioholic
Wait.....which speakers don't gave a correct design?
Incorrect design (unavoidable midrange mushroom cloud of energy, due to fairly large midwoofer, fairly small tweeter, and tweeter mounted on a 180deg waveguide)

Verus Grand Tower Speaker - Aperion Audio (No measurements provided, but we know well enough based on the driver configuration. Though at least 5" mids will be less offensive than 7" mids would be, because there's relatively less directivity shift.)

Sierra Tower Bamboo Loudspeaker
this graph tells a markedly different story from the advertising copy, with a clear mushroom cloud of midrange energy from ~ 1-5 kHz, precisely what one would have guessed just by looking at them:

And the polar graph provided is not normalized, obscuring the pattern to some degree.)

SongBird - home
SongTower speaker features
(No measurements provided, but simply knowing the size of the midwoofer and the lack of directivity control on the tweeter is sufficient)

Probably good-to-excellent based on the measured performance, IF the room is suitable for very wide horizontal directivity:
Keele/PE/Audio Artistry CBT36 (though it's a lot more expensive, when one counts the time value of labor)

philharmonicaudio.com and philharmonicaudio.com (The measurements are hard to interpret, because they're provided as separate graphs, rather than Stereophile-style rotated graph normalized to the on-axis response, or better yet a polar map like Waslo's Omnimic can do, and Geddes shows for his speakers. But the midrange is narrow, and the tweeter is brought in low enough to effect a pretty good directivity match. However, those measurements may not be representative of what one gets in room, because of the impact from front-wall reflections; they are open-backed in the mids)

Isn't the most important thing how they measure and how they sound, regardless of design?
Obviously. But it is physically impossible for a speaker with a narrowing midwoofer and tweeter plopped on a 180deg waveguide (i.e. flush-mounted on the baffle) to measure well. Sure, the on-axis response can be fine, but the midrange is going to be colored (unless one listens in an anechoic chamber, or outdoors) by the excess of energy thrown out by the tweeter at the bottom of its passband. And that is eminently measurable. See, e.g., the Ascend graph, supra.

Not to say that people like Dr. Murphy can't get the best possible result such a configuration allows out of it, but ultimately it's still hamstrung by the basic physics of 180deg waveguides.

Furthermore, most people don't have a real basis for determining good sound, because they've never heard good reproduction of music. Most of the speakers sold to consumers are just risibly bad. From the low end to mid fi to high end and everything in between. And that's what most people are used to hearing, so they'll gravitate to similarly flawed speakers.
 
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