20% Tax on Items from Mexico to pay for wall...

Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
OK, I see it might escalate, so this will be my last post on this topic.

It wasn't emotion and rhetoric. It is something else. When it comes to politics I have this particular "wake up call" type of discourse. Same as with alarm clocks, I guess, no matter how much you may need one, you'll always hate it in the morning. This type of discourse often fails at conveying one aspect and that is the fact that I am not emotional at all, I'm entirely about content. I don't know why would anyone think that if your ways worked I wouldn't say so.

Look around you. Are they working? So, why would you defend them? As I said; I don't have a horse in your race, but having the comfort of looking at it from aside, it just appears silly.
I have no idea what you're talking about.

Rather than preoccupying yourself with demarcating what 'rhetoric' is, try and remember who taught you the definition. When and if you do, try and ask yourself is it biased? Does this definition help you or the one who is explaining you why you can't have a better life? Is he still your friend? Are his explanations really yours?

And try not to hate me for these questions. Here I am trying to motivate you for something I believe will make YOUR world a better place... I'm not trying to trick you or fool you. That's why I asked: why correct me and have it as it is? If you think you have all the apologies for the way things are and all the apologies not to change, best of luck to you.

You all seem to think it's little tweaks, it's all fine tuning. It is not. It doesn't matter is it 20% or 15%, whether it'll hit the poor or the rich. There's something more fundamental at play. And it is ideology.
You're incoherent. I taught myself what rhetoric is. (Interestingly, someone in our family is about to get a PhD in composition and rhetoric.)

Seriously, I have no idea what you're talking about. I haven't complained about my life, I've expressed the opinion that some government policies need improvement.

I'll try to explain if you have some time. I'll imagine a story...

I'm walking through the woods and I hear someone crying for help. I run to see what it is and I find irvrobinson being choked by a python. I jump at the snake and start trying to get it off him. Then he yells at me and say; what the f... are you off your medication?? I'm startled, but I ask him what does he mean, he was crying for help? He says leave the snake, the snake is good. He says: me being choked by this snake is the only possible way of today and yes I was crying for help, I wonder could you help me tie this polka-dot ribbon on the snake as this is suuuure to help. I tell him; no, the problem is that the snake is choking you and not that it's not pretty enough. He says; no, the fact that it is choking me is not to be discussed, you can only help me choose the ribbon. Finally I ask; well who told you that the fact it is choking you is NOT the problem? And much to my amazement, he says; the snake did.
Is this your brain on drugs? Or perhaps alcohol? ;-)

I did work in all types of companies; small private business to state owned companies. I guess since this was your question (well, actually an effort at means of my exclusion from the debate) I take it now you'll believe me? (of course not, see - ideology)
I asked if you worked for *manufacturing* companies.

have you ever seen those silly Star Trek episodes where some crew member gets a parasite attached to the back of his neck? Other members try to take it of, but the member with the parasite fights back. We the audience understand this clearly - it is the parasite controlling his host making the host protect the parasite. Imagine this same scene without the parasite. Imagine that the parasite is just a metaphor for a set of ideas. Someone comes and shakes them and you jump at him. This is how in real world people react to anyone going against their ideology. It is never as usually shown - people suffer under a burden until a liberator comes and can hardly wait until they're liberated and then they celebrate the liberator and build him a monument. No. They hate him, insult him, despise him, try to protect their 'parasite' on the back of their necks and if they actually build him a monument it is obvious he didn't do diddly squat.
You're the liberator? I must be missing your point, because you're sounding delusional.
 
rojo

rojo

Audioholic Samurai
In light of the fact that economists can never agree on anything, what should we replace them with?

People conflate "better" with 'more'- at what point, does someone have 'enough'? Wages can't keep rising without cost of goods hitting unaffordable prices. and this is what the US has caused. Post WWII, the US had a huge boom in just about every aspect of the economy and workers joined unions in many types of work. They went on strike when they didn't get what they wanted and when they did, prices increased but union workers usually don't see a correlation between the two but once the prices affect them to the point where they can't afford to buy the thinks that lets them keep up with others, they want more. ALWAYS more.

My dad worked for a company that went on strike not long after he started. I didn't win any points when I asked how much he made while on strike and pointed out that working through the negotiations paid better and that if the strike costs the company enough, they might close that location. He would invite friends from work to our house and a couple of them had a bumper sticker with 'Buy Union' on their foreign-made vehicle. I didn't win any points for pointing out this hypocricy but honestly, I didn't care- I was concerned with making my point.
Also, post WWII, there was much less income inequality in the US than today. You're not wrong about the correlation between wages and cost, but it's not people like your father who are putting strain on payroll.

In Eisenhower's day we had the highest marginal tax rate for a century. Execs were taxed higher, and that money was invested heavily in infrastructure, education, social programs, and all the drivers that boost economic health. People could go to an ivy league school for a tuition in the hundreds, not the 5- and 6-digit shackles charged today. Eventually congressional Dems came to view Republican regulation of banks as stifling progress, and started moving to deregulate. Following that, Reaganite Republicans shifted to a belief in trickle-down economics (which Bush Sr. rightly used to call voodoo economics) and moved to bust up unions and lower the tax rate on the wealthy. Ever since, Republicans and Democrats alike have allowed further deregulation, allowing speculative banking lobbies to buy elections and dictate policy.

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he doesn't exist. Likewise, the greatest trick the 1% ever pulled was convincing the middle class that the poor are the cause of their struggles. Strikes harm the company, so unions should be discouraged. Mexican immigrants are taking all our jobs and welfare, so we must build a wall. The cost of insurance is too high for us to subsidize people who can't afford it, so repeal Obamacare. And all the while, the job creators aren't creating as many living wage paying jobs as their tax breaks have paid for.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
Dan

Dan

Audioholic Chief
So.... getting back to the OP, is there an audioholic in Mexico who wants to hep me get good tequilla...:D
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
So.... getting back to the OP, is there an audioholic in Mexico who wants to hep me get good tequilla...:D
I actually know a Mexican who makes his own tequila.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
Also, post WWII, there was much less income inequality in the US than today. You're not wrong about the correlation between wages and cost, but it's not people like your father who are putting strain on payroll.

In Eisenhower's day we had the highest marginal tax rate for a century. Execs were taxed higher, and that money was invested heavily in infrastructure, education, social programs, and all the drivers that boost economic health. People could go to an ivy league school for a tuition in the hundreds, not the 5- and 6-digit shackles charged today. Eventually congressional Dems came to view Republican regulation of banks as stifling progress, and started moving to deregulate. Following that, Reaganite Republicans shifted to a belief in trickle-down economics (which Bush Sr. rightly used to call voodoo economics) and moved to bust up unions and lower the tax rate on the wealthy. Ever since, Republicans and Democrats alike have allowed further deregulation, allowing speculative banking lobbies to buy elections and dictate policy.

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he doesn't exist. Likewise, the greatest trick the 1% ever pulled was convincing the middle class that the poor are the cause of their struggles. Strikes harm the company, so unions should be discouraged. Mexican immigrants are taking all our jobs and welfare, so we must build a wall. The cost of insurance is too high for us to subsidize people who can't afford it, so repeal Obamacare. And all the while, the job creators aren't creating as many living wage paying jobs as their tax breaks have paid for.

http://www.owl232.net/irrationality.htm
Why People Are Irrational about Politics
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Also, post WWII, there was much less income inequality in the US than today. You're not wrong about the correlation between wages and cost, but it's not people like your father who are putting strain on payroll.

In Eisenhower's day we had the highest marginal tax rate for a century. Execs were taxed higher, and that money was invested heavily in infrastructure, education, social programs, and all the drivers that boost economic health. People could go to an ivy league school for a tuition in the hundreds, not the 5- and 6-digit shackles charged today. Eventually congressional Dems came to view Republican regulation of banks as stifling progress, and started moving to deregulate. Following that, Reaganite Republicans shifted to a belief in trickle-down economics (which Bush Sr. rightly used to call voodoo economics) and moved to bust up unions and lower the tax rate on the wealthy. Ever since, Republicans and Democrats alike have allowed further deregulation, allowing speculative banking lobbies to buy elections and dictate policy.

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he doesn't exist. Likewise, the greatest trick the 1% ever pulled was convincing the middle class that the poor are the cause of their struggles. Strikes harm the company, so unions should be discouraged. Mexican immigrants are taking all our jobs and welfare, so we must build a wall. The cost of insurance is too high for us to subsidize people who can't afford it, so repeal Obamacare. And all the while, the job creators aren't creating as many living wage paying jobs as their tax breaks have paid for.
Post WWII, the taxes were high so the US could pay for the war and reconstruction of Europe. Pre-WWII, the average worker made about $squat.35/hour but we also lost a good number of people who had previously been in college or part of the work force but the up-side to the need for so much production (if you want to see anything about WII as 'good' this isn't a bad example, IMO) was that we really saw that people can step up when needed and learn to do things that were thought to be outside of their abilities. Once the war was over and most people returned, we needed housing- A LOT of housing. The attitude that people would live at home until marriage (and sometimes after) basically died with the war- if they could fight in a war, they could make it on their own and the optimism was rampant for most people and the US had a huge case of "We can do anything!". Unfortunately, some of the people who were building houses should have done something else- I bought one that was built in 1946 and OMG! Anyway, manufacturing was up, people were confident and they often got a job in a factory, which would eventually mean they joined a union. Union membership costs money, it puts a lot of leverage on manufacturers to pay more (which is often because of the union leaders' desire for more money and when the workers make more, they can pay a percentage and that increases, too). I have no problem with unions if the place treats the workers like crap, but when they strike for higher wages and benefits when the employees are already making more than ever, it's just a case of pitting the workers against management- the age-old battle.

However, I think you're a bit off in the last part-

Poor people aren't known for making a lot of great decisions, which keeps them in their position. Those who do make better decisions escape poverty and some do exceptionally well. Sometimes, decisions have nothing to do with them staying there, but I would bet that many would do better if they were to move to a different location where they might have better opportunities.

Strikes can and do hurt companies and sometimes, the company actually closes because of this. If they have a good amount of competition, they can and do lose the orders that keep them going. Then, the workers are out of a job. Again, if the company treats the workers like crap, it can be deserved.

I don't know if you think that only Mexicans come to the US from Mexico, but that's not true. This link is only for California, but they have about 2.3 million illegals- how much can be extrapolated for the rest of the country?

http://www.gao.gov/assets/230/220582.pdf

It's not the cost of insurance that's too high, it's the cost of health care and drugs. The insurance cost reflects this and if it wasn't a shared pool, some people couldn't be insured at any cost. We need a good health care insurance plan, just not this one. It was rammed down our throats and it penalizes those who don't "participate" in a plan that's mandatory. Great- how does this work with "If you like you plan/Doctor, you can keep your plan/Doctor"?

Jobs aren't created unless there's a need and companies don't exist so people will have a job. If I create a job and don't have enough work, what happens? I'll have to close. The Federal government is a prime example of an organization that has zero understanding of containing costs in a way that keeps people employed, doesn't piss off the workers and contractors and to deliver a quality service or product. The Federal government is the single largest employer in the US, even if the military isn't involved.

If you know where I can get some of these mythical tax breaks, let me know. AFAIK, the ones that are given are because of favors given and payments made, present or future. Influence costs money and I don't have enough to be influential.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
If you know where I can get some of these mythical tax breaks, let me know.
I think the tax breaks that irk people the most regard so-called "carried interest", capital gains, dividends, and business losses. The issue with carried interest, dividends, and long-term capital gains is that they're taxed at lower rates than earned income, and that they are not subject to FICA or Medicare taxes. Even though I enjoy having dividends and long-term capital gains subject to these benefits, it does piss me off that earned income is taxed at a higher rate than anything else. WTF? Hard work is penalized? Yup, exactly.

But the worst tax travesty of all is the ability to deduct business losses on a carry-forward basis, for as much as 20 years. WTF to the 100th power! Why do taxpayers have to foot the bill for dumb-ass business people who fail? You earn income you pay a tax, you lose money the government gives you a credit? Talk about indefensible and stupid. Congressmen should have to receive ten lashes per day until the law changes.
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
It was one quote that made a bit of sense.. yet it was wishful thinking.
Your hope of people applying everyday logic to politics... it has never happened and never will.

http://www.owl232.net/irrationality.htm
Why People Are Irrational about Politics

The rest of your posts were long ramblings.
I chalked it up to English (possibly) not be your first language?
So, what made sense to you was something that has never happened and never will!? And you call my posts rambling?:D

My posts are not rambling and it has nothing to do with my knowledge of English. I said what I wanted to say.

Is that your article in the link? It is interesting as a hindsight but it makes one significant mistake. Of course, me being me, I don't think it is an honest mistake but the silent work of ideology. It is a textbook example. Otherwise one might find it interesting although the goal is very dubious.

Shouldn't that be "I chalked it up to English (possibly) not being your first language";)

Have a nice one!
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
I think the tax breaks that irk people the most regard so-called "carried interest", capital gains, dividends, and business losses. The issue with carried interest, dividends, and long-term capital gains is that they're taxed at lower rates than earned income, and that they are not subject to FICA or Medicare taxes. Even though I enjoy having dividends and long-term capital gains subject to these benefits, it does piss me off that earned income is taxed at a higher rate than anything else. WTF? Hard work is penalized? Yup, exactly.

But the worst tax travesty of all is the ability to deduct business losses on a carry-forward basis, for as much as 20 years. WTF to the 100th power! Why do taxpayers have to foot the bill for dumb-ass business people who fail? You earn income you pay a tax, you lose money the government gives you a credit? Talk about indefensible and stupid. Congressmen should have to receive ten lashes per day until the law changes.
The Canadian federal government has recently been looking at different aspects of tax "fairness". One of the breaks being given the hairy eyeball is the tax-free - vice taxable benefit - status of employer-sponsored health care plans. At first, I thought 'here we go again, another tax'. But, the fact is that people who don't have access to such plans, are effectively subsidizing those of us who do. Most of those people without plans would be in a lower income bracket, as well. Is that fair? I have to admit, probably not.
 
Ponzio

Ponzio

Audioholic Samurai
No Drama Obama vs. The Gropenfuhrer ... it's not even close.

Start a trade war with the nation that imports the 2nd most goods from us, signs an executive order before the Attorney General can review it for its legality, then ...

the list just grows and it's only been 11 days.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I think the tax breaks that irk people the most regard so-called "carried interest", capital gains, dividends, and business losses. The issue with carried interest, dividends, and long-term capital gains is that they're taxed at lower rates than earned income, and that they are not subject to FICA or Medicare taxes. Even though I enjoy having dividends and long-term capital gains subject to these benefits, it does piss me off that earned income is taxed at a higher rate than anything else. WTF? Hard work is penalized? Yup, exactly.

But the worst tax travesty of all is the ability to deduct business losses on a carry-forward basis, for as much as 20 years. WTF to the 100th power! Why do taxpayers have to foot the bill for dumb-ass business people who fail? You earn income you pay a tax, you lose money the government gives you a credit? Talk about indefensible and stupid. Congressmen should have to receive ten lashes per day until the law changes.
If government wants companies to be innovative, those companies need to spend money developing new products, technologies, etc- I know you know this. If this costs millions of dollars more in some years, should they not be able to offset some of their income, or should they just eat the cost and possibly close because someone with deeper pockets came along and was able to go to market sooner? I think there's abuse of every write-off available, but I am in favor of allowing a company to write off expenses that exceed those in other years- private citizens can write off losses over the future, too- it's right there in an IRS form, but this is only allowed to offset Capital Gains. If they allowed all losses to be used in a single year, I think the IRS would show a small positive revenue number when all is tallied.

I think large losses could be used to trigger an audit, though. If they find shenanigans, penalize whoever is responsible.

Remember- the employer pays the other half of FICA and self-employed pay a "self-employment tax" that's equal to the full amount of 15.3%. Employers and self-employed didn't get the same reprieve employees had, though (2008?). I would like to see the upper limit raised for FICA. If someone making $150K can't afford another ~$3400 for the additional FICA, something is wrong. It would put additional burden on employers, though.
 
rojo

rojo

Audioholic Samurai
Poor people aren't known for making a lot of great decisions, which keeps them in their position.
This point of view implies a belief in a level playing field. It's really not. The system is rigged against the poor. They have the highest interest loans. They're more apt to incur overdraft fees. Sales tax has a disproportionately negative effect on the poor. They are the target market for predatory loans -- adjustable rate mortgages, payday loans, buy here pay here junk auto dealerships, rent-to-own appliance shops, for-profit universities... they're all intended to push their customers into default and to indenture them for life. Sure, falling for these predators qualifies as a poor decision. But it's not hard to imagine the circumstances one might suffer that would drive him to pay $3000 over time for a $500 car when no one else will offer a loan -- a car which now needs $2000 worth of repairs, and now you need a pay day advance loan to perform those repairs, and it easily becomes a torturous cycle of self-perpetuating, crippling, high interest debt.

It's not the cost of insurance that's too high, it's the cost of health care and drugs.
I thoroughly agree with this. If you want to see something that'll fill you with righteous indignation, have a look at this video. I always thought that pursuing the insurance companies was a bass-ackwards way of dealing with providing health care to those who can't afford it, like it was a distraction from the real problem.

Jobs aren't created unless there's a need and companies don't exist so people will have a job.
I don't know whether you agree with Reaganomics or not, but the fundamental justification for tax breaks for the wealthy has always been that they will create more jobs and give more raises, letting their good fortune trickle down and putting more of their wealth into circulation. If what you say is true (and it absolutely is), then how can anyone expect trickle down economics to work? (It absolutely doesn't.)
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
It was one quote that made a bit of sense.. yet it was wishful thinking.
Your hope of people applying everyday logic to politics... it has never happened and never will.

http://www.owl232.net/irrationality.htm
Why People Are Irrational about Politics

The rest of your posts were long ramblings.
I chalked it up to English (possibly) not be your first language?
Hey Ricardo, just read this today...interesting.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/01/how-curiosity-bursts-our-political-bubbles/514451/
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
If government wants companies to be innovative, those companies need to spend money developing new products, technologies, etc- I know you know this. If this costs millions of dollars more in some years, should they not be able to offset some of their income, or should they just eat the cost and possibly close because someone with deeper pockets came along and was able to go to market sooner? I think there's abuse of every write-off available, but I am in favor of allowing a company to write off expenses that exceed those in other years- private citizens can write off losses over the future, too- it's right there in an IRS form, but this is only allowed to offset Capital Gains. If they allowed all losses to be used in a single year, I think the IRS would show a small positive revenue number when all is tallied.
Businesses can already write off just about any reasonable expense within a tax year. I'm talking about being about to use a net loss to offset future profits for tax purposes. This is nothing but subsidizing failure, and it is often twisted around to sly people's advantage, like President Twitter did.

Remember- the employer pays the other half of FICA and self-employed pay a "self-employment tax" that's equal to the full amount of 15.3%. Employers and self-employed didn't get the same reprieve employees had, though (2008?). I would like to see the upper limit raised for FICA. If someone making $150K can't afford another ~$3400 for the additional FICA, something is wrong. It would put additional burden on employers, though.
Your math is messed up. The FICA income limit is $127K this year. $150K-$127K = $23K, taxed at 6.2% = $1426. I remember when I made $150K, and $1426 was serious change to me when I was raising a family. So let's not trivialize that level of additional taxation.

And you should remember how the Social Security system works. If you raise the income limit maximum benefits go up in proportion. So I wish they'd raise the limit to infinity, so I could get a bigger government guaranteed payout. What most greedy people want is to raise the taxation limit, but not raise the maximum payout, and while I'm not an expert in the SS law, I think you'd have to change the legislation.
 
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Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
The Canadian federal government has recently been looking at different aspects of tax "fairness". One of the breaks being given the hairy eyeball is the tax-free - vice taxable benefit - status of employer-sponsored health care plans. At first, I thought 'here we go again, another tax'. But, the fact is that people who don't have access to such plans, are effectively subsidizing those of us who do. Most of those people without plans would be in a lower income bracket, as well. Is that fair? I have to admit, probably not.
The Affordable Care Act in the US already includes additional taxation for so-called "Cadillac" health care plans. The tax hasn't been levied yet, as the ACA included a provision to postpone it until 2018 (if my memory serves), at the behest of labor unions.
 

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