2 or 2.1 Channel setup Speakers

E

erpauls

Junior Audioholic
As I am in the process of building/upgrading my 2 channel system I came to a realization. I do not sit still very long. This is making me really reconsider the type or characteristics of the speakers I am looking for. While I of course want a speaker that is incredible when sitting in that sweetspot once setup I think just as important...maybe more...is a speaker that will sound really good as I move around the room and still have imaging and depth. I know it sounds a little weird but there will be a work area in the room.
Do some speakers lend themselves more to this? Price range is up to $6k/pair. Size is not that important. The room is approx 15x25x 8

Any Ideas? Questions?

Eric
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
nice size room ! perhaps you need a better listening chair !! On a serious note you want speakers with above avg dispersion for sure, that leaves out electrostatics !
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
nice size room ! perhaps you need a better listening chair !! On a serious note you want speakers with above avg dispersion for sure, that leaves out electrostatics !
Unless it is Quad ESL 63 with the electrodes connected to delay lines.


As I am in the process of building/upgrading my 2 channel system I came to a realization. I do not sit still very long. This is making me really reconsider the type or characteristics of the speakers I am looking for. While I of course want a speaker that is incredible when sitting in that sweetspot once setup I think just as important...maybe more...is a speaker that will sound really good as I move around the room and still have imaging and depth. I know it sounds a little weird but there will be a work area in the room.
Do some speakers lend themselves more to this? Price range is up to $6k/pair. Size is not that important. The room is approx 15x25x 8

Any Ideas? Questions?

Eric
You need to audition them. Speakers with superior and even dispersion where of axis closely mimics the axis response, no frequency response peaking, and with superior phase integrity will have good even room coverage.

I can tell you one thing, that even small peaks in the mid band will make a speaker force to listen in the sweet spot, and you will be drawn like a manet to the closest speaker. Where as a slight dip in the response will not cause this, and tend to go undetected unless severe.
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
You need to audition them. Speakers with superior and even dispersion where of axis closely mimics the axis response, no frequency response peaking, and with superior phase integrity will have good even room coverage.

I can tell you one thing, that even small peaks in the mid band will make a speaker force to listen in the sweet spot, and you will be drawn like a magnet to the closest speaker. Where as a slight dip in the response will not cause this, and tend to go undetected unless severe.
That's interesting. I don't think I've read that about the mid band before but it makes sense considering how important clear vocals are.

@erpauls a little more info might help. Do you already have amplification and if so what make and model? What geographical area are you in and are there particular brands that you can audition locally?
 
E

erpauls

Junior Audioholic
Well, I have the cambridge 851n for preamp/streamer. I'm currently making due with an old Carver TFM 35 for amplification. Was planning on making the speakers my next step then a new amplifier.
Located in St. Louis, MO. But willing to drive a bit if it warrants.
 
EthicalEar

EthicalEar

Junior Audioholic
I would pick the 2.1 but dual subs. However, If sweet spots are a chair and then a work desk in another area behind then I would also believe 2.0 with just a single pair of Revel Performa3 F208, would exceed anyone's expectations in a room like that. Good luck with your research, whatever you find and buy will be fun with that budget!
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
That's interesting. I don't think I've read that about the mid band before but it makes sense considering how important clear vocals are.

@erpauls a little more info might help. Do you already have amplification and if so what make and model? What geographical area are you in and are there particular brands that you can audition locally?
It really boils down to that crucial speech discrimination band from 400 Hz to 3.5 KHz, and to some extent out to 5 KHz. The ear is incredibly sensitive to aberrations in that region.

As you probably know I'm in the geriatric set, and soon will have lived through three quarters of a century of audio. So I go back to before accurate audio measuring, Thiel/Small and certainly computer modelling and measuring programs. However, back in then the BBC played a pivotal role in audio development and especially loudspeakers. You can really can not do and creditable audio production without accurate speakers. So in those days, trial and especially error was your teacher.

Anyhow the BBC found out that getting a decent smooth audio perspective across the sound filed could be enhanced by a frequency response dip centered around 3 K form 1 K to 4 to 5 K. This became known as the "BBC Smiley." It was highly effective. With improvements especially greater data, modelling and more accurate measurements it was found you did not need that dip, but the take home was that a rise in that band was highly deleterious. It produces a forward image, and causes an inability to ignore that you are listening to speakers, and destroys the illusion of perspective. So in fact keeping that region ultra flat is the best policy. However, it is still true that a dip is far preferable to the slightest peak in that region.

More bad news is that it is in just this region that crossover points almost always occur, and these can and often do introduce a whole raft of problems from frequency to time aberrations. If at all possible it is my opinion crossovers in that sensitive range should be avoided.

Even so, I'm not beyond using the old BBC Smiley in moderation, especially for two channel listening.

This is from the speakers in my 2 channel system in the family room.



The crossover points are 400 Hz and 4 KHz. Because of driver characteristics high order electrical crossover slopes are required which are fourth order LR. The BBC smiley is about 3 db referenced to 500 Hz.

However, if you look at the impulse response, you can see the deleterious effects of high order crossovers on time, causing significant inter diver delays stretching over 0.5 msec.

I'm not sure the HF rise is real. The tweeter is a mylar planar device, and I think the issue is that it affects the usual I meter measurement taken on tweeter axis, as the speakers do not sound like that curve would suggest. In any event the rise is only 3 db at 6 KHz referenced to 500 Hz. There is a rise of 6 db, between 30 and 40 Hz, I think due to position and room. I think it is real as there is the definite hint of some increased warmth. Modelled F3 is that Hz, but that quirk extends the response to 20 Hz.

I'm actually very fond of those speakers, they give a good account throughout the space. Speech and vocals are clear and natural. TV watching is not a problem and you can place yourself anywhere you want. A great place to spin vinyl by the fireplace in the winter months.

All speakers have some trade offs. In general peaks tend to be among the worst of speaker ills.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
As I am in the process of building/upgrading my 2 channel system I came to a realization. I do not sit still very long. This is making me really reconsider the type or characteristics of the speakers I am looking for. While I of course want a speaker that is incredible when sitting in that sweetspot once setup I think just as important...maybe more...is a speaker that will sound really good as I move around the room and still have imaging and depth. I know it sounds a little weird but there will be a work area in the room.
Do some speakers lend themselves more to this? Price range is up to $6k/pair. Size is not that important. The room is approx 15x25x 8

Any Ideas? Questions?

Eric
The problem is, you are going to be doing a lot of listening at off-axis vertical angles, and that is where most speakers change their character the most dramatically, even for small angle changes.

I would be looking for wide dispersion on both the horizontal and vertical plane with that criteria. One speaker I liked for that was the RBH PM-8. The sound character doesn't change that much as you change your listening position which is very rare for speakers with AMT tweeters.

Another speaker that might work for your criteria is some KEF Ref series. They should have a wider dispersion on the vertical axis relative to typical speakers.
 
E

erpauls

Junior Audioholic
Well, funny you should mention RBH and Kef. Using RBH inwalls for the HT about to build and was thinking about checking out the KEF R11s.
I have owned Kef in the past but have not heard any of their newer models.
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
Well, funny you should mention RBH and Kef. Using RBH inwalls for the HT about to build and was thinking about checking out the KEF R11s.
I have owned Kef in the past but have not heard any of their newer models.
Unfortunately the Reference 3 retail at $14k, double your budget. Next model down would be the R11, which is still a great speaker but different drivers. The PM-8 would be around $4k plus stands. ShadyJ does a lot of speaker testing so definitely check those out.

There is a detailed review of the Revel F208 on AudioScienceReview. Might want to look at the new Founder 100F if you have a Paradigm dealer. The Focal Aria 948 would also be at the top of your budget.

If you want to buy U.S., Salk Sound in Pontiac MI makes some beautiful speakers that measure very flat, but many of them use an MTM design that might not have the vertical dispersion you're looking for.
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
I wish I had a way to demo Salk....:(
Only 550 miles. ;) Yeah, 8 hours is a long drive but if I was spending that kind of money I would seriously consider making the trip. I70E appears to be full of construction right now, though.
 
E

erpauls

Junior Audioholic
Well. I made the trip to Dallas to demo triad, and the trip to Utah to demo RBH...so maybe
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
As I am in the process of building/upgrading my 2 channel system I came to a realization. I do not sit still very long. This is making me really reconsider the type or characteristics of the speakers I am looking for. While I of course want a speaker that is incredible when sitting in that sweetspot once setup I think just as important...maybe more...is a speaker that will sound really good as I move around the room and still have imaging and depth. I know it sounds a little weird but there will be a work area in the room.
Do some speakers lend themselves more to this? Price range is up to $6k/pair. Size is not that important. The room is approx 15x25x 8

Any Ideas? Questions?

Eric
I think plenty of speakers that measure well on-axis and off-axis will sound great even when you are not inside the room (assuming they sound great when you are in the room).

I think many of us will turn on the music while we are in another room (kitchen, laundry, etc.) doing our things and still enjoy the music.

But that might mean the volume may be a lot higher since you are in a different room listening. So probably focus on more larger dynamic towers of power.
 
E

erpauls

Junior Audioholic
Yes I think your right. Hopefully something descent size with a descent dispersion.
 
E

erpauls

Junior Audioholic
I think plenty of speakers that measure well on-axis and off-axis will sound great even when you are not inside the room (assuming they sound great when you are in the room).

I think many of us will turn on the music while we are in another room (kitchen, laundry, etc.) doing our things and still enjoy the music.

But that might mean the volume may be a lot higher since you are in a different room listening. So probably focus on more larger dynamic towers of power.
It appears you like your bass? lol 10subs?
 
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