2-channel separates for less than $2k?

[vantara]

Hi. I've been doing a lot of reading here and on other forums, as well as a lot of my own research. But, I think I might be hitting a bit of a wall.

I would like to upgrade my old Yamaha AVR. And I would like to go with a separate amp/preamp. Reason being, I am not into surround, not a gamer, and not a heavy movie guy. It's mainly for music-- from rock to blues to classical to jazz. The music's the thing.

But it seems most preamps lean heavily toward analog inputs (which I can understand), and that's fine, as long as I can find a setup in my price range that includes reasonable digital options (Optical, Coax, USB). I was looking at a promising integrated amp by NAD, with an add-on MDC module, but that thing only includes Optical and USB, PLUS makes you have to reach around back to manually switch from one to the other (Seriously? Who comes up with this stuff?).

Anyway, if anyone has advice on whether there are decent options for my requirements, I'd be most appreciative. Here is my wish list:

2.1 separates
Optical/Coax/USB
Sub out
Max $2,000.

As for speakers, I just ordered a couple NHT Absolute Towers, and will also be looking to upgrade my sub (an old Yamaha 2x7").

Thanks for your help!

 

[psbfan9]

Hi Vantara. Welcome to the forum.

Have you looked at the Outlaw Audio RR2150? Seems to tick all the boxes.

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/rr2150.html

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/rr2150_gallery3.html

 

[slipperybidness]

Hi. I've been doing a lot of reading here and on other forums, as well as a lot of my own research. But, I think I might be hitting a bit of a wall.

I would like to upgrade my old Yamaha AVR. And I would like to go with a separate amp/preamp. Reason being, I am not into surround, not a gamer, and not a heavy movie guy. It's mainly for music-- from rock to blues to classical to jazz. The music's the thing.

But it seems most preamps lean heavily toward analog inputs (which I can understand), and that's fine, as long as I can find a setup in my price range that includes reasonable digital options (Optical, Coax, USB). I was looking at a promising integrated amp by NAD, with an add-on MDC module, but that thing only includes Optical and USB, PLUS makes you have to reach around back to manually switch from one to the other (Seriously? Who comes up with this stuff?).

Anyway, if anyone has advice on whether there are decent options for my requirements, I'd be most appreciative. Here is my wish list:

2.1 separates
Optical/Coax/USB
Sub out
Max $2,000.

As for speakers, I just ordered a couple NHT Absolute Towers, and will also be looking to upgrade my sub (an old Yamaha 2x7").

Thanks for your help!

If you are already doing separates, then you have the option of separate DAC too. That gets you around these problems

 

[TLS Guy]

You are up against everything that is wrong with the state of audio now.

There is lunatic esoteric gear and mass produced gear built to a price and desperately trying to get economies of scale.

This is the sort of lunatic esoteric gear I'm talking about.

That is just a CD player and does not need to look as if it is a fancy drone about to get airborne!

The next issue causing problems is the cost of licensing of HDMI especially and codecs. This gets expensive.

So the esoteric gear looks fancy and does not deliver much in the real world of today.

Now if you just want 2.0 you have choices. There is a good selection of modern and vintage gear especially to choose from.

You need a smart TV and a DAC to connect to the optical out and send analog to the pre amp. In this case you use your TV as the digital switch.

If you want 2.1 things then get complicated. To do that you will have to do your own bass management between preamp, amps and sub. This means getting an electronic crossover and setting it up. It even then is not true 2.1 as there is no dedicated LFE. However if this is mainly a music system it will work well.

Otherwise you need a receiver or pre/pro.

If you buy a multichannel pre/pro then I don't think you will come out budget wise.

So now you are left buying a multichannel receiver with pre outs.

You might want to consider that outlaw 2.1 receiver, the only one I'm aware of. User reviews have been mixed. I think you have to be careful getting into HDMI streaming and multiple codecs out of the mass produced equipment.

I know this is unsatisfactory, as a lot of this gear has very little pride of ownership.

I know you would think there would be a lot of demand for what you want. The problem is that at this time there is not. It is cheaper to make a lot of units that covers all the bases, even if a lot of users will never use all the amps, or a lot of the facilities.

I know this is far from a satisfactory situation, but that is the state of play at present, and I suspect for some time.

I agree that NAD unit is an expensive waste of space.

 

[anamorphic96]

If you are already doing separates, then you have the option of separate DAC too. That gets you around these problems

+1 - Just get an external DAC.

 

[anamorphic96]

I should have also added that Parasound has separates that would be within your budget. The zDAC v.1 is going for 299.00 from several merchants as well.

 

[highfigh]

I would at least check out the Parasound P5/A23 combo. I loaded mine into my rack around 5:00 this afternoon and only 5 hours into the first use, I can say that the difference between this and the Denon AVR-2313CI is drastic and I actually liked that one. OTOH, I wasn't comparing it with anything else. The A23 is definitely punchier and, although the Denon did a decent job with the low end, it didn't have the ability to play low & solid AND provide the dynamics this amp does without any problem.

The list price for the pair is $2090. If you don't need a set of balanced in/out or more than a simple MM/MC switch, you could look at their 2100 preamp. I haven't had a chance to check that one out, though. The A23 is rated for 45A peak current, so it will drive a lot of speakers that a receiver can't.

Today, I played vinyl for the first time in a few years- it never sounded like this.

 

[markw]

TLS guy brings up a good point: There is no ".1" in a two channel system, or even with a two channel source.

You can, however, get a fine powered subwoofer and, using it's internal crossover, blend it in fairly perfectly with the rest of your system. Many have done this with great success.

 

[Swerd]

The OP says he wants a system with potentially better sound quality than his older Yamaha AVR. He wants:

• 2.1 separates
• Optical/Coax/USB inputs
  
• Sub out
• Max $2,000.
• to drive a pair of NHT Absolute Towers

I see two options, but neither has everything exactly as wanted:

1. Outlaw RR2150 Stereo Receiver http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/rr2150.html that psbfan9 mentioned above. It costs $700, has enough power to easily drive the NHT speakers, and has bass management capabilities similar to AV receivers. It has a USB input but lacks optical/coaxial digital inputs. (Without a DAC, I'm unsure what the USB input does.) So it would require an external DAC, which are available at reasonable prices. I think this is the OP's best option. I have heard a system with this receiver, and it drove 4 ohm SongTowers with ease, and sounded great.
   
   
2. A second option is also sold by Outlaw, a 975 Surround Processor http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/975.html for $549, combined with two Outlaw 2200 Monoblock amplifiers for $379 each http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/2200.html That would be $1307 for all 3 items. It meets all the OP's requirements except that the preamp/processor has more than 2 channels.

 

[Swerd]

As a follow up to my previous post, if the OP bought the Outlaw RR2120 stereo receiver and added an external DAC, he should have what he wants. At what cost?

I've never looked to buy one before. There is an unusually wide price range for external DACs, from many thousands of dollars , to well under $100. A quick search on Amazon came up with these two inexpensive DACs, which appear to have all the hook ups the OP might want.

They cost $39 and $65. What does anyone else know or think about these, if they are added to a good audio system that lacks a DAC suitable for music?

http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Optical-Converter-Headphone-Amplifier/dp/B003XCHCLC/ref=sr_1_4?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1424874624&sr=1-4&keywords=dac+audio+converter

http://www.amazon.com/SMSL-SD793-II-PCM1793-DIR9001-amplifier/dp/B00A2QLQTQ/ref=sr_1_5?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1424874624&sr=1-5&keywords=dac+audio+converter

 

[Steve81]

One off the wall suggestion if you don't need analog inputs:

Get Emotiva's XDA-2 DAC ($299) and run it as a preamp to their XPA-200 ($499). Now technically, the XDA-2 doesn't have a subwoofer output, but there are two ways you could deal with this problem.

1. Both the balanced and unbalanced outputs of the XDA-2 are always active, so you could technically hook up the XPA-200 to the balanced lines, and use the unbalanced outputs to drive a subwoofer, utilizing its built in low pass filter.

2. Some subwoofers (the SVS SB1000 & 2000 come to mind) have stereo inputs and high passed outputs. In this case, you would run the unbalanced lines of the XDA-2 to the subwoofer, and then another pair of cables from the subwoofers outputs to the amplifier.

 

[TLS Guy]

As a follow up to my previous post, if the OP bought the Outlaw RR2120 stereo receiver and added an external DAC, he should have what he wants. At what cost?

I've never looked to buy one before. There is an unusually wide price range for external DACs, from many thousands of dollars , to well under $100. A quick search on Amazon came up with these two inexpensive DACs, which appear to have all the hook ups the OP might want.

They cost $39 and $65. What does anyone else know or think about these, if they are added to a good audio system that lacks a DAC suitable for music?

http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Optical-Converter-Headphone-Amplifier/dp/B003XCHCLC/ref=sr_1_4?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1424874624&sr=1-4&keywords=dac+audio+converter

http://www.amazon.com/SMSL-SD793-II-PCM1793-DIR9001-amplifier/dp/B00A2QLQTQ/ref=sr_1_5?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1424874624&sr=1-5&keywords=dac+audio+converter

The problem with all this is that it is a messy unhandy solution.

Those DACs are designed to connect to the optical out of a TV. The DACs do not decode any codecs. The TV would but only lossy codecs. In addition program can now have flags to disable the optical out from a TV. From one recent post I'm suspicious there are discs out there now with the flag.

So if you want loss less codecs from a TV you have to somehow get HDMI to your pre pro.

So all of these solutions deny good HDMI connectivity.

I personally think there is a market out there for a three channel pre/pro of high quality, with good streaming ability, all the codecs and HDMI and analog inputs.

I suppose though, that it is nearly as cheap to provide 5 or seven channels as 2 or three, and you save the double inventory.

Pre/pros in general are getting scarcer, and couple with that analog inputs seem to be disappearing fast.

I have said often this industry is too concentrated on ghastly receivers. We need better choices of quality units.

There was a recent post with a link to a test of receivers with low level output -90 db). Guess what, as I suspected the distortion at -90 db was high, as I have long suspected. The consensus here was that distortion at 90 db would be in audible. That is the wrong conclusion! This is a feature that cheap amps frequently exhibit and it sounds awful. The ear is highly sensitive to rise in distortion of the ambient tale.

When I hear receivers they sound bad to me usually, but there are so many variables that I can't draw a reliable conclusion.

We need more choices in better separates that do not require a second mortgage.

I know what the OP wants, but it will not happen at 2K or anything close to it. That is a problem if this audio and home theater hobby is to continue.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

All great suggestion above, but let me point the obvious here:
NHT Abs Tower is about $1100/pr ... new Sub - lets says $500. so $1600 in speakers. With that speaker budget, spending $2k on electronics is not smart decision. If your yamaha missing dac - get an external dac or get low-mid tier receiver - if mostly stereo is what you're after - newer yamaha receiver or denon is the way to go

You can spend $100 on a dac or $10000 on new pre-pro/amp combo - it would sound identically (99.99999%) same as long you don't demand from amp more that it's capable of.

distortion at -90 db might be audible, but much less so at more typical avr at -100db or better

 

[markw]

Before we throw the baby out with the dishwater, OP never indicated an interest in HDMI, only coax, toslink, and USB. As such, that NAD with perhaps another (external) dac that accepts USB and optical/coax might do the trick.

 

[Swerd]

Before we throw the baby out with the dishwater, OP never indicated an interest in HDMI, only coax, toslink, and USB. As such, that NAD with perhaps another (external) dac that accepts USB and optical/coax might do the trick.

I agree.

Let's be clear about some vocabulary. When I say "DAC" I think of a device needed to convert digital audio, audio CD or computer file, in the form of PCM audio into 2-channel analog audio. Can either of those inexpensive DACs I linked do that? Or is something additional needed?

The term "codec", as TLS Guy said above, I assume means an encoded mufti-channel digital audio format, such as Dolby Digital, DTS (both called lossy codecs), and the various loss-less codecs that have become widespread with the advent of Blu Ray discs. Is this what other people mean when they speak of DACs or codecs?

I think the OP says he is only interested in playing back PCM audio files of music, and not in music encoded with any of the lossy or loss-less multi-chanel codecs.

I also agree with BSA about the distribution of money spent on speakers and electronics. But the OP already ordered those NHT speakers.

 

[JohnnieB]

I have re-read the OP a couple times trying not to miss something. I think the Oppo 105 has everything he needs. Analog, USB, coaxial, HDMI in out. It doesn't have a phono pre out but those can be had on the cheap. Add a rather modest 2 channel amp, such as an Emotiva. Would this not work?

 

[vantara]

I really appreciate the input here, everyone. Sorry if my original reply didn't come through... this is my first post here, so just getting oriented.

The Parasound P5/A23 combo really does look like it's going to hit the mark. But I am interested to know how this setup would be out of balance with the NHTs and an SVS SB2000, for instance? Sounds like the sentiment is that this is too much input for those speakers? If that's so, then I really don't mind. Part of my goal is also to achieve, as TLS guy puts it, "pride of ownership." Budget constraints withstanding.

I would definitley proudly display these components. Gotta believe it would be better than my old Yamaha AVR, Klipsch RSX-5s, and Yamaha YST-120.

And finally, as for the suggestion of a separate DAC... why would I need one with the Parasound setup?

Thanks again for the feedback.

 

[Swerd]

The Parasound P5/A23 combo really does look like it's going to hit the mark. But I am interested to know how this setup would be out of balance with the NHTs and an SVS SB2000, for instance? Sounds like the sentiment is that this is too much input for those speakers?

The A23 amp is not too powerful for those NHT speakers. We were trying to save you some money . I think some posts were suggesting that spending more of the total on speakers and less on the electronics might end up providing better sound.

Otherwise, I see nothing wrong with your choice of the Parasound units.

And finally, as for the suggestion of a separate DAC... why would I need one with the Parasound setup?

With the Parasound P5 you won't need a separate DAC.

Enjoy your new stuff .

 

[vantara]

And I greatly appreciate that, Swerd. Kids finally out of school... and I've decided to do something nice for myself. ;-)

 

[Seth=L]

I doubt you will be dissatisfied with Parasound.