2.1 system: Bi-amping + speaker setting "Small" = meaningless?

[fttank]

Hi there,

new member, first thread - hope I managed to hit the right forum!

After quite a bit of researching the web and some video-watching I managed to fill some og my knowledge «holes», but one I did not quite figure out:

I run a 2.1 - setup with a Denon X4300H and B&W CM8 / ASW10CMS2

Before I added the sub I bi-amped my speakers - so far so good.
After implementing the sub, I set the speakers to «Small» with the crossover at 80 Hz.

Doesn’t that mean the bi-wiring becomes quite meaningless since I preamp the low frequencies to the sub?

I never found any numbers for high frequency (HF) and low frequency (LF) labeled on the speakers speakers, or how a receiver distinguishes between HF and LF.
(Well, it would make sense if LF covers a lot above the 80 Hz, or if I would use the "Large" speaker setting, with LFE+Main, using the woofers of my CM8's, too)

Thanks for filling in

Fttank

 

[Grandzoltar]

Splitting the signal by bi wiring or bi amping has no quantifiable effect especially if your using the same AVR’s assignable bi amping terminals. All of the magic happens with in the crossover where the signal is split up and distributed to the LF or HF and in some cases MF. Say a speakers is rated at 200 watts rms it doesn’t mean you should shove 200 watts down the HF terminal then 200 watts into the LF terminal. If High Spl is what you want then feed the speaker it’s 200 watts and let the crossover properly handle the signal as it’s designed to do.

Setting your speakers to small and a XO of 80 is still going to be using your woofers. Contrary to a lot of belief a higher crossover just before you can localize your sub measures best for me. I have towers +-3 40hz and I flip back and forth from 90 and 100 hz.

Stay away from large main + lfe unless your speakers are full range +-3 20hz

 

[PENG]

I run a 2.1 - setup with a Denon X4300H and B&W CM8 / ASW10CMS2

Before I added the sub I bi-amped my speakers - so far so good.
After implementing the sub, I set the speakers to «Small» with the crossover at 80 Hz.

Doesn’t that mean the bi-wiring becomes quite meaningless since I preamp the low frequencies to the sub?

Even when used full range, bi-wire's benefits are theoretical at best, there is zero chance you could tell a difference in a blind test.

I never found any numbers for high frequency (HF) and low frequency (LF) labeled on the speakers speakers, or how a receiver distinguishes between HF and LF.

What do you mean, or expect to see?

(Well, it would make sense if LF covers a lot above the 80 Hz, or if I would use the "Large" speaker setting, with LFE+Main, using the woofers of my CM8's, too)

I don't believe this are definitions for LF and HF in audio, but there are generally accepted ranges for each, try the links below to get some ideas:

https://www.teachmeaudio.com/mixing/techniques/audio-spectrum/
https://www.alesis.com/kb/article/2227
https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_frequencychecklow.php

Using LFE+Main is generally bad idea for those who prefer accuracy/neutrality. It won't always get you "more" bass either as that would depend on how the main speakers interact with the subwoofer and the room. You may end up getting major cancellations or excessive boost in certain ranges that your AVR's room EQ feature cannot cope well enough

 

[Pogre]

Doesn’t that mean the bi-wiring becomes quite meaningless since I preamp the low frequencies to the sub?

Bi-wiring under most circumstances is quite meaningless. Any gains from doing so pretty much fall outside the audible range.

 

[Leemix]

If you already have all you need for bi-amping why not try and see if you like it or not.

When passivly bi-amping the AVR sends the full signal to both high and low outputs afaik. It doesnt «split» the high and low signal itself, thats for the speakers crossovers to sort out.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[lovinthehd]

https://www.audioholics.com/frequent-questions/the-difference-between-biamping-vs-biwiring

 

[PENG]

If you already have all you need for bi-amping why not try and see if you like it or not.

When passivly bi-amping the AVR sends the full signal to both high and low outputs afaik. It doesnt «split» the high and low signal itself, thats for the speakers crossovers to sort out.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

As I explained (or tried to..) a few times before, to say "the AVR sends the full signal to........." could be misleading to some people. The fact could be stated clearer by going with "the AVR still has to amplify the full range signal, but the frequency range in the signal current will be different in the LF and HF speaker wires due to the different characteristic of the split crossover at the speakers.................." something like that, others are welcome to further improve on clarity using different words, I am just an EE.

 

[Leemix]

As I explained (or tried to..) a few times before, to say "the AVR sends the full signal to........." could be misleading to some people. The fact could be stated clearer by going with "the AVR still has to amplify the full range signal, but the frequency range in the signal current will be different in the LF and HF speaker wires due to the different characteristic of the split crossover at the speakers.................." something like that, others are welcome to further improve on clarity using different words, I am just an EE.

It wasnt mentioned yet in this thread so i just added it in case.

 

[PENG]

It wasnt mentioned yet in this thread so i just added it in case.

Understood, I just wanted emphasized the fact that the signal currents in the two pairs of speaker wires in the passive bi-amp scenario are in fact different, i.e. frequency range bound, even though the signal voltage at the amp output terminals are the same, i.e. full range. Not everyone understands electronic filters do not work like water or air filters.

 

[fttank]

Wow! Overwhelming response... Thanks! All this helps to get a bit for bit clearer picture... I think my question was more related to LF and HF definition and had a more theoretical character. When it comes to it, I always let my ears decide ;-)

Yeah, the link with the article/video on bi-amping - bi-wiring is really good! I saw that one (good laughs in there).

For the records, the following settings sound best for my personal taste/ listening profile:
Speakers Small, Crossover 80 Hz (all done by receiver, not sub). Large and LFE+Main I do stay away, since that gives some weird bass behaviour (not more, but weirder)....... Denons Dynamic EQ set to "On" and Dynamic Volume to "Light". This after a LOT of testing back and forth.

Again, thanks!
.

 

[Kingnoob]

Splitting the signal by bi wiring or bi amping has no quantifiable effect especially if your using the same AVR’s assignable bi amping terminals. All of the magic happens with in the crossover where the signal is split up and distributed to the LF or HF and in some cases MF. Say a speakers is rated at 200 watts rms it doesn’t mean you should shove 200 watts down the HF terminal then 200 watts into the LF terminal. If High Spl is what you want then feed the speaker it’s 200 watts and let the crossover properly handle the signal as it’s designed to do.

Setting your speakers to small and a XO of 80 is still going to be using your woofers. Contrary to a lot of belief a higher crossover just before you can localize your sub measures best for me. I have towers +-3 40hz and I flip back and forth from 90 and 100 hz.

Stay away from large main + lfe unless your speakers are full range +-3 20hz

Hi amping makes a. 7 ch receiver into a 5 it’s pretty pointless .
Why does it exist anyways ? For super high end towers something??
Doesn’t the crossover give the woofers and bass drivers most the power anyways ???


Ultimate bass lover !! si ht15 dvc.
Free the reptile aliens

 

[Pogre]

Wow! Overwhelming response... Thanks! All this helps to get a bit for bit clearer picture... I think my question was more related to LF and HF definition and had a more theoretical character. When it comes to it, I always let my ears decide ;-)

Yeah, the link with the article/video on bi-amping - bi-wiring is really good! I saw that one (good laughs in there).

For the records, the following settings sound best for my personal taste/ listening profile:
Speakers Small, Crossover 80 Hz (all done by receiver, not sub). Large and LFE+Main I do stay away, since that gives some weird bass behaviour (not more, but weirder)....... Denons Dynamic EQ set to "On" and Dynamic Volume to "Light". This after a LOT of testing back and forth.

Again, thanks!
.

I leave dynamic volume off. It's made for late night listening and filters and takes away from the dynamics.

 

[lovinthehd]

Wow! Overwhelming response... Thanks! All this helps to get a bit for bit clearer picture... I think my question was more related to LF and HF definition and had a more theoretical character. When it comes to it, I always let my ears decide ;-)

Yeah, the link with the article/video on bi-amping - bi-wiring is really good! I saw that one (good laughs in there).

For the records, the following settings sound best for my personal taste/ listening profile:
Speakers Small, Crossover 80 Hz (all done by receiver, not sub). Large and LFE+Main I do stay away, since that gives some weird bass behaviour (not more, but weirder)....... Denons Dynamic EQ set to "On" and Dynamic Volume to "Light". This after a LOT of testing back and forth.

Again, thanks!
.

I'd turn off Dynamic Volume myself. If you haven't checked out the relationship with DynamicEQ and the Reference Level Offset, the default setting of 0 is more for movies, might want to change for music https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212347383-Dynamic-EQ-and-Reference-Level

 

[fttank]

PENG: I just fine-read your comments to the »Large LFE+Main», and you’re describing exatcly what I mean with »...weird bass behaviour (not more, but weirder)»: Major cancellations and excessive booms.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

PENG: I just fine-read your comments to the »Large LFE+Main», and you’re describing exatcly what I mean with »...weird bass behaviour (not more, but weirder)»: Major cancellations and excessive booms.

Yeah, lfe+main is almost every time, useless. Only special cases. Also, agree with the other guys about dynamic volume, many have found it to be useful, but it just flattens everything. As usual your mileage may vary.

 

[fttank]

Hi, after testing and researching a bit more I want to share my findings:

BI-AMPING
There is really no conclusion but try it out and test. A reasonable option of bi-amping seems to be to increase the quality of the (single) speaker cables and replace the jumpers between the binding posts with a piece of the same better speaker cable.

LFE/LFE+MAIN
As said above in this thread, the LARGE setting wit LFE+MAIN leads to weird (not more) bass behaviour. But even though that about 90% of the articles I read recommend the setting SMALL/LFE, there is a small fraction advising the opposite: B&W support (Germany) and Hifiklubben (Norwegian Denon/ B&W-support) would «definitively always set the CM8 to LARGE (with LFE+MAIN)»

LFE and speaker to SMALL with a crossover at 60 / 80 Hz is the way to go for me.

AUDYSSEY/DYNAMIC EQ/DYNAMIC VOLMUME
I was in general too uncritical to the measurements Audyssey takes, and there was quite a process to get that right. Eg. I used the measured setting on all sources and contents (yeah, I know!). Besides, I noticed that the Audyssey App and the AVR take different measures, especially on subwoofer level (+0,5 App, -2,0 AVR).

Now I adjust the settings accordingly. For movies Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume is a must because of the low listening levels we tend to watch movies at. Without Dynamic EQ the sound gets really flat, and Dynamic Volume rescues us from continuously adjusting the volume (loud explosions vs low voices). This is more a compromise I had to make - I rather tend to be a purist.

For Music I tested a bit more and there I ended up doing the opposite, especially after I had watched the video posted below. Yes, there is a setup without Audyssey! Music I usually listen at quite high volume and I found it best to completely turn off all available features (Audio Restorer, Audyssey w DynEQ and DynVol) and manually adjust the sound to my liking - using the Graphic EQ of my Denon AVR. This provides a lot more flexibility to get it «right» .

Thanks again