1080p: The Holy Grail of Video - Part 1

[Audioholics]

You may have heard of the popular high definition resolutions 720p (720 progressive) and 1080i (1080 interlaced); 1080p is superior to both. What is 1080p? Quite simply, if you were able to count the vertical pixels on a 1080p display, there would be 1,080 of them while the horizontal pixels total 1,920 (you'll typically see this expressed as 1920 x 1080). 1080p is the highest resolution, high-definition standard, and until we abandon ATSC (the current standard used by all major television stations), this is the best picture you can have in your home.

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[Jedi2016]

As an addendum, since this is a home theater forum... It's interesting to note that many digital transfers for film (the "HD Masters" you hear about) are at 1080p. And some films, like the last two Star Wars films, are shot in 1080p.

1080i is a very close second, but it's still second.

Pity so few TVs support that resolution so far. And those that do are prohibitavely expensive for most folks. Me, I'll be going for a 1080i TV when I finally break into HD.

 

[GlocksRock]

so what is better, 720p or 1080i?

 

[Jedi2016]

In my opinion, 1080i. Simply because it's a higher resolution. And regardless of what some people will say, interlacing is completely invisible if done properly.

I think the only reason 720p even exists is because there are some "HD" TVs out there that only have around 768 lines of resolution, and are incapable of displaying an actual 1920x1080 image. Most flatscreens suffer from this limitation.. something they conveniently neglect to mention during their sales pitches. Always read the fine print. All 1080i TVs can do 720p, but not all 720p TVs can do 1080i. And 1080p TVs can do 'em all.

 

[BMXTRIX]

I think the only reason 720p even exists is because there are some "HD" TVs out there that only have around 768 lines of resolution, and are incapable of displaying an actual 1920x1080 image. Most flatscreens suffer from this limitation.. something they conveniently neglect to mention during their sales pitches. Always read the fine print. All 1080i TVs can do 720p, but not all 720p TVs can do 1080i. And 1080p TVs can do 'em all.

Ummm... no.

1080p TVs quite often don't accept 1080p which is a format that we will likely see from HD disc players, so that is one they can't do.

1080i CRT rear projection televisions quite often don't have the ability to accept and display 720p signals, so it is bad with that.

There is not really added resoution with 1080i over 720p. Because 1080i only actually shows 1920x540 lines for every frame which is similar to the number of lines shown with 720p. The rest of video that fills up to 1080p is actually interpreted data, not actual data and this can cause major deinterlacing issues.

In fact, until recently, most sets did not upconvert 1080i to 1080p to show on 720p displays. They actually converted 1080i to 540p then converted 540p to 720p for display.

Finally - most sets aren't 1080p. Almost all HD sets are 1280x720 or 1365x768. There are a few oddball HD resolutions including 1280x768 and 1024x768 and 1024x1024. There are actually very few 1080p displays on the market and only LCoS technology offers a true 1080p chip right now (that I know of) that is in use.

Almost ALL 720p displays are compatible with 1080i, 720p, 480p, and 480i. I'm not sure, off the top of my head, of any that aren't. In fact, some projectors that are 720p also include acceptance of some 1080p sources which even 1080p displays often can't accept!

Likely next year we will finally see the 1080p DLP chips (true 1080p, not wobbulated), and we will also finally see 1080p LCD chips which will go head-to-head with them.

IMO - 1080p is only worth it if the size of your screen is large enough and if the display accepts 1080p/24 and 1080p/60. Any display that claims to be 1080p, but doesn't accept 1080p resolutions is already obsolete and not worth any extra money you may spend. I say you here, because I'm not buying into it until it meets my needs... thanks anyway.

 

[Jedi2016]

Um.. you DO know how interlacing works, yes? There is no "interpreted" data unless you're watching it on a computer, or unless your image is being deinterlaced by a digital television. Which a 1080i signal will NOT be.. it will remain interlaced, and it'll look perfectly fine. Ever watch a DVD on a normal 480i TV? Ever notice any interlacing artifacts? 'Cause I sure as hell don't.

While you're technically correct about the 1920x540 resolution, it also makes zero difference. HDTVs still operate at the same framerates as SDTVs do.. the interlacing on a 1080i signal works the same way. And whether you've got 1920x540x60 or 1920x1080x30, makes absolutely no difference when you're dealing with a 24fps source like a film. The only time it will make any noticable difference is with these new game consoles, that can generate 720p, 1080i, and 1080p signals, at 60fps. But since most of us are more concerned with the "theater" aspect of "home theater", then it's those 24fps films that we pay most attention to.

As for the rest of it.. you lost me at the "1080p TVs can't accept 1080p signals" thing. And I've yet to see a 1080i TV that can't display 720p. The image is zoomed slightly, but otherwise remains the same.. i.e. a lower resolution than 1080i/p.

You're not going to be able to convince me of much in regards to interlaced and progressive... I've been working with video for far too long, I know exactly how it works.

 

[GlocksRock]

My roommates Mitsubishi CRT rear projection tv is 1080i, but can't display 720p.

 

[Jedi2016]

My roommates Mitsubishi CRT rear projection tv is 1080i, but can't display 720p.

Out of curiosity, what equipment does your roommate have that generates a 720p signal? And what happens when you try to use it that way?

I'm assuming it can display 480p... what's the difference from a technical point of view between that and 720p? Or is it just old?

 

[GlocksRock]

Out of curiosity, what equipment does your roommate have that generates a 720p signal? And what happens when you try to use it that way?

I'm assuming it can display 480p... what's the difference from a technical point of view between that and 720p? Or is it just old?

He has a High Def Tivo unit, and he also has a Momitsu upscaling DVD player, but I don't use his stuff very often so I don't know what happens when you try to use a 720p signal with it, but I guess it would just scale it to 1080i. However he doesn't get HD via DirecTV he gets it via an over the air antenna that is on the roof. Yes it can display a 480p signal, and it's not really that old. He bought it last year, it was a floor model at Tweeter.

 

[BMXTRIX]

Jedi - The only displays that can show 1080i as an interlaced source are CRT displays which are on the way out the door. LCD, DLP, and LCoS rear projection are all digital displays which means that they are all inherently progressive scan. They may accept interlaced sources, but they only display in a progressive format.

So, 1080i must be deinterlaced to show on a 720p display or a 1080p display - or even a 480p display. That means that the 60 frames must be combined in some way and if the deinterlacer is doing an excellent job with material that originates as 1080i/60 then it will definitely be interpolating data to put together smooth frames just as a good deinterlacer does with 480i material. 1080i most definitely matters if the original content is television - Law & Order, Letterman Show, etc. It all begins as 1080i/60 - which means it must be deinterlaced to show on any digital display which can introduce artifacts if it is not done correctly.

1080i material that began at 24fps has an entirely different world of issues - and potential.

Heck, I would be thrilled if digital displays actually could operate at 24hz, 48hz, and 60hz - and perhaps beyond. Digital display do not suffer from the same limitations that CRT does so the concept of 24hz doesn't mean 'poor' - it will actually equate to 'filmlike' when viewing a 1080p/24 source.

While I am not denying your claim that you have worked with video for a long time, I do wonder why you wouldn't be aware that many CRT rear projection televisions do not accept 720p input? I'm not even sure now that they are beyond this issue in CRT land.

Digital displays sometimes don't accept certain signals as well - Panasonic most notably did not accept 720p on the component input for many years. I believe this has changed on the most recent models though.

I don't watch on a normal TV - by which I am guessing your mean a tube type CRT. I watch on my plasma or on my projector. Likewise, CRT technology is on its way out the door, and more and more people are watching on digital displays. So, while CRT can be discussed, it is not the 'future' of television - it is the past.

 

[Jedi2016]

While I am not denying your claim that you have worked with video for a long time, I do wonder why you wouldn't be aware that many CRT rear projection televisions do not accept 720p input?

That one's easy.. I don't work with the technology, only the source. By "working with video", I meant it in terms of editing, visual effects, etc. When adding VFX to an interlaced DV source, you have to understand intricately how interlacing works, in order to get everything to mesh together the way it ought to be.

I do know that CRTs are "old" technology.. basically, just high-resolution tube TVs, not terribly different from the fifteen year old Sanyo I've got downstairs. The only reason I tend to eyeball them more than the others is because that's what I'm most likely to buy when I finally upgrade to HDTV (sometime next year, I hope). For one, they're cheaper. They're smaller, which is both and upside and a downside... upside because it won't utterly dominate my rather small living room, and downside because I wouldn't mind having something huge. I don't like the flatscreen displays because they're prohibitavely expensive (for me), and most of them only support up to 720p. And I don't like projection TVs of any kind because of the viewing-angle problem that's always plagued them (something I noticed just the other day when I was in Best Buy). On a limited budget with limited space, a CRT is pretty much the way to go. And I still get 1080i, so I'm good.

Which I think will work out fairly well for this next-generation of entertainment coming along. I can watch Blu-Ray movies at 1080i, and play my video games at 1080i.. it's likely I'd never use 720p, given the choice.

 

[BMXTRIX]

That one's easy.. I don't work with the technology, only the source.

I thought it might be something like that.

I don't like the flatscreen displays because they're prohibitavely expensive (for me), and most of them only support up to 720p.

I like the (for me) part because cost is really a personal thing.

But, you are incorrect in saying that displays only support up to 720p.

The input side (your side) and the output side (which you don't deal with) are truly separate items and must be dealt with and viewed differently and independently from display to display. A lcd display can be 1080p native and will need to scale 1080i to 1080p. A plasma may be 720p or 768p but will still happily accept a 1080i source, deinterlacing it and scaling it to the native resolution of the display.

The source material itself is the key and the reason why 1080p is considered by many to be the 'holy grail' for video. 1080i most definitely has issues when deinterlaced for a digital display. It also is known for issues with anything fast moving, like sports, which is why a lot of football is presented in 720p - it is better for that application.

But, 1080p gives both - the best of both worlds. More resolution, plus it is presented at a full 60fps which gives smooth motion without deinterlacing issues such as judder.

I personally only own non-CRT televisions - and front projection IMO is the holy grail of television. No angle issues, but definitely need to have an entire room setup properly for it.

1080i, on a CRT is tough to beat. But, 1080p on a CRT which can handle 1080p would be even better.

 

[Jedi2016]

But, 1080p gives both - the best of both worlds. More resolution, plus it is presented at a full 60fps which gives smooth motion without deinterlacing issues such as judder.

Oh, I agree, definitely.

And by "only supports 720p", I was referring to the lower resolution of the display itself.. a 1080 input signal has to be down-rezzed in order to display, so you're not really seeing the full resolution of the original source. It's like me downloading a 1920x1080 movie trailer, but having to downsize it to 1024x576 so I can watch it on my itty-bitty monitor.

For TVs, I plan to do an assload of research once I decide to buy one (i.e. once I have enough money set aside.. hehe). The whole "quality vs cost" thing, and making sure that whatever TVs I look at have all the features and gizmos that I want. You know how it is when you buy a new gadget for the HT.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

OTA sports looks much better with 720p compared to 1080i on our 37" LCD HDTV. No comparison. To me, it's going to depend on the content of the source. We put up a 10' roof antenna, and pick up 6 HD channels to the east, and 4 to the west (sucks having to rotate the antenna). Not bad for "free" tv. The local digital cable package only offers 5 channels, so getting all the networks as well as PBS isn't so bad.

As far as current dvd's, it's more important IMO to get a better dvd player than worry about existing 720p/1080i resolution. There's a huge difference in a dvd player compared to a cheap Westinghouse "wanna be" 1080p player. All current dvd's are recorded in 480 resolution, so one must rely on some type of "fill in" to make up the difference on current 720p/1080i sets.

With the new technology of Blu Ray and HD DVD, I'd wait for a true 1080p set/projector to come out. Most are still on the drawing board, and pricing will be at a pinnacle until major source material comes out.

 

[BMXTRIX]

Hey look - Part II is up...

http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/1080pdisplaysformats.php

Looks like if you read very carefully you will find... pretty much nothing that hasn't been discussed in this thread. Still a good read though as it's much shorter than this thread.

Rumors are the prototype mass produced Blu-Ray Disc (Charlies Angels) has been mastered at 1920x1080p for 1080p reproduction! No word on 24fps or 60fps. Hopefully 24.

Dang, the next 2-3 years of televisions/projectors are going to be cool.

 

[Duffinator]

Just for the record, my Toshiba 56H80 widescreen CRT based HD RPTV will not accept and display a 720P signal. If I turn my DirecTV HD TiVo box to 720P nothing happens. The display is not capable of syncing the signal and the screen is blank. From the many CRT RPTV's and direct views I've seen it's the exception not the rule that they accept and display a 720P signal. Now on to part 2.

 

[Duffinator]

A quote from the article "How do you think these folks are going to react when they find out once again they jumped in too soon? How would you feel if you just purchased a 1080p display and now you find that it is already flawed?"

About the same way I felt a few years ago when it was released that either form of 1080 HD DVD will only be available with a digital input like HDMI/DVI. Both formats are going to down convert the signal to 480P over an analog connection. But I'll just wait until the displays accept a 1080P input and then it will be time to upgrade once again.

 

[Amechwarrior]

Just want to toss in that my aprox. 5 year old RCA 1080i CRT does not display 720p but does do 480p just fine. I figured that CRT does not do 720p due to the limitations of CRT, I have yet to see a non rear projection 720p CRT yet, if I am wrong, oh well, it was just a guess I made looking at a bunch of CRTs at the local stores.

The tests on my own TV was done using my xbox360 and switching from 480p to 720p, which caused a garbled pic simmilar to unplugging just the green component cable then to 1080i which works fine.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Just want to toss in that my aprox. 5 year old RCA 1080i CRT does not display 720p but does do 480p just fine. I figured that CRT does not do 720p due to the limitations of CRT, I have yet to see a non rear projection 720p CRT yet, if I am wrong, oh well, it was just a guess I made looking at a bunch of CRTs at the local stores.

The tests on my own TV was done using my xbox360 and switching from 480p to 720p, which caused a garbled pic simmilar to unplugging just the green component cable then to 1080i which works fine.

I though I'd seen some flat screen HD CRT's labelled "progressive scan" (60fps) that would handle 720p. Is that incorrect?

 

[izub]

HP 6580n

I believe this tv does true 1080p through HDMI... it is the only one, along with the 58 inch model also