10 MORE Reasons Why HD-DVD Formats Have Already Failed

DavidW

DavidW

Audioholics Contributing Writer
I have a HTPC with the X-BOX HD-DVD Drive. Just received the Matrix HD-DVD Trilogy. I couldn't tell the difference. I don't know if it is ATI's AVIVO not up to snuff, or Power DVD-Ultra. OR if there simply isn't a great enough difference for me to tell on a 720P 37" LCD.

I do know that the AVIVO does a heckuva job on DVD up conversion though :)

The video card is a PCI-Express ATI X1950-GT
The problem with the XBOX HD DVD drive is that unless you have the new Elite version with HDMI, the video is run through both D/A and A/D conversions before it gets to the display when using analog component video, each of which will intoduce some amount of cummulative error and signal deterioration. This, on top of down resolution to 720p and the possiblility of multiple interlacing/deinterlacing steps if the XBOX is set to output at 1080i.

I have not seen the Matrix HD DVD transfers yet, but this example may not be definitve.

My own impressions, using my 52" 720p, is that good upscaling gets SD closeup details similar to true HD, visually, but it is when the focus is not closeup and with infocus backgrounds that the differences are most noticable.

As Clint said, the whole problem is that HD optical disks do not represent the revolutionary leap forward that the marketers tout and improvements in SD scaling from the early days of HD TVs have made it harder to see the differences, unless one knows what they should look for and/or even cares.
 
Warpdrv

Warpdrv

Audioholic Ninja
Thanks for that inciteful article, which gives me another couple of years not to feel bad about purchasing my 50" 1080i Panny Plasma, which I am extremely happy with and don't have any payments on...

I am of the strong opinion that I will wait for the flame war to taper off and see what happens with these two formats, as well as prices to come down.

I agree with alot of the statements made by everyone here... and very informative.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
The problem with the XBOX HD DVD drive is that unless you have the new Elite version with HDMI, the video is run through both D/A and A/D conversions before it gets to the display when using analog component video, each of which will intoduce some amount of cummulative error and signal deterioration. This, on top of down resolution to 720p and the possiblility of multiple interlacing/deinterlacing steps if the XBOX is set to output at 1080i.

I have not seen the Matrix HD DVD transfers yet, but this example may not be definitve.

My own impressions, using my 52" 720p, is that good upscaling gets SD closeup details similar to true HD, visually, but it is when the focus is not closeup and with infocus backgrounds that the differences are most noticable.

As Clint said, the whole problem is that HD optical disks do not represent the revolutionary leap forward that the marketers tout and improvements in SD scaling from the early days of HD TVs have made it harder to see the differences, unless one knows what they should look for and/or even cares.
I have the XBOX-HD DVD drive, not an X-BOX it's self. HD-DVD drive to computer via USB, computer to 37" LCD via DVI to HDMI cable. That's it...
As far as I know there is no D/A conversion going on.

I am not complaining per se (I picked up the trilogy for 19.99 from Circuit City) when it should have been $99. Just thought I would see a tangible difference, you know: some wow factor.
 
Last edited:
DavidW

DavidW

Audioholics Contributing Writer
I have the XBOX-HD DVD drive, not an X-BOX it's self. HD-DVD drive to computer via USB, computer to 37" LCD via DVI to HDMI cable. That's it...
As far as I know there is no D/A conversion going on.

I am not complaining per se (I picked up the trilogy for 19.99 from Circuit City) when it should have been $99. Just thought I would see a tangible difference, you know: some wow factor.
That's a hell of a pricing error in your favor, but I gotta ask if you are sure you have the HD-DVD version?

The collection is availible on DVD in similar packaging.

And if it is the really the HD-DVD version and they still have it for $20, where is this Circuit City at?
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
That's a hell of a pricing error in your favor, but I gotta ask if you are sure you have the HD-DVD version?

The collection is availible on DVD in similar packaging.

And if it is the really the HD-DVD version and they still have it for $20, where is this Circuit City at?
I am quite positive that it is HD-DVD format. HD-DVD is on the silkscreen. I have a decent eye for video quality.

I just double checked all the settings (both ATI Catalyst, and Power DVD Ultra). I really can not find visual difference between the up-converted DVD and HD-DVD.

I am going to get a few more HD-DVD titles from Netflix and see what happens.

I think that the AVIVO suite is really not there yet. Anandtech did an article on NVIDIA and ATI's current HD content rendering and it seems that both parties have a ways to go. Oh well, such is the fate of an early adopter HD/Blu-Ray HTPC'er.
 
B

billnchristy

Senior Audioholic
I did a quick comparo the other night with the matrix HD-DVD and the matrix SD-DVD both through the Toshiba A1 and via component on a PS2, here is what I found (most of it is pretty obvious):

I did a little comparo test last night with the Matrix:

Using the helicopter scene where it crashes into the building as Neo pulls the skinny leather chick out as a reference.

For this test I used SD-DVD via PS3 with component out, HD-DVD with HDMI out via A1, SD-DVD via A1.

As you would imagine the order of quality was:

HD-DVD @ 720p
SD-DVD upconverted to 720p
SD-DVD at 480p

Now...what where the differences:

SD at SD:

Picture was fuzzy, muted and lackluster. I have not watched an SD DVD in SD since I got the A1 and it was kind of shocking how bad the picture quality was. When the helicopter exploded the glass just became kind of a blur.

SD at HD:

A little more clarity. Close up scenes look almost as good as HD, far away scenes are still kind of muted and blurry. Explosion was good up until the glass saturation reached a certain point and then it was hard to pick out shards

HD:

I know they messed with the colors (read it in a review) but they did right. Image is sharp, closeups let you count pores but not as much as some HD releases, far away shots are clear and crisp. If you had all day you could count every shard of glass in the explosion.
 
D

download

Audiophyte
I'm not a huge fan of HD but I think the father in law test pretty much CONFIRMED that HD will blossom. Consumers may not be all that enamoured with BR/HDDVD but the one thing they do want is BIG SCREENS (50", 80" 100", etc.).

I often contend that the entire HD format was not created to provide brilliant images on standard screens. It was developed to allow a 'SD' image quality AFTER you blew the picture up to an enourmous size.

If you want to try the FIL test again, throw a standard DVD (without upscaling) onto your 100" projector and ask him what he thinks about the PQ then. He may not care about all the techy jargon but he'd probably agree that he enjoyed the HD version more :)

Regards

Peter Gillespie
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
I did a quick comparo the other night with the matrix HD-DVD and the matrix SD-DVD both through the Toshiba A1 and via component on a PS2, here is what I found (most of it is pretty obvious):
I wonder how the Toshiba A1 scaler compares to ATI's AVIVO for DVD upscaling.?
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Wimp! lol
Of course I'm a wimp... But, what's that got to do with the article?

I just think this article isn't quite so off the mark as the last one was. Yes, it's critical, but hits a bit closer to home.

It's my contention that this will be too long.
Your contention is wrong. ;)

No, obviously I'm not sure, but DVD didn't springboard into success overnight and it didn't truly have a competing format to go against it. Beta was available for 18 months before VHS even came along... but that was a different time in history.

Bottom line is that 3-5 years is how long we will have to wait to have a picture of what is going on. In 3 years I expect that an article like this one can be written and actually be able to be honest. To point out why the formats are failing... But, right now, the formats are just getting started and are a long way from failure. They did a lot of things right out of the block or quickly thereafter... Including video quality, audio quality. But, in a few years we will see things hit commodity pricing levels and then we will see whether or not people care.
 
KC23

KC23

Audioholic
I waited for quite some time to decide which format to go with. In the end I got frustrated and got an oppo 981HD which upscales my DVDs and I am happy as can be.

IOW, your article is spot on as far as I am concerned.
 
A

aec

Enthusiast
I thought Clint's article was well written and disappointing. I am someone who looks forward to improvements in picture and sound. The opinions going back forth on the viability of this format are going to be subject to the mass of consumers who are probably not like most of us on these forums - aka "Joe Sixpack". If they don't make it cheap, easy to understand and readily available, then kiss it goodbye. As to quality - I have seen BR and HD-DVD in some high end locations and lower end (Magnolia). I saw a difference. Like VHS to DVD? Not exactly. But a noticeable difference. I have been waiting on the sidelines in the hope that the format war would get resolved sooner rather than later and had made my mind up to wait until late fall and possibly buy a dual format player. But Value Electronics changed my mind. I purchased a Toshiba A2 for $300 delivered (w/3 hd/dvds & hdmi cable and 4 yr warranty). I ordered it Wed, got it yesterday. I will let you know what I see when I get it integrated into my system this week. There are problems w/the sound via digital connection. But I am not ready to trade in my B&K AVR 507 for an hdmi 1.3 equipped receiver or prepro until I know it is a format that will still be around in 2 yrs.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
A

awesomebase

Audioholic
Clint, Clint, Clint!

Clint, gotta say that I love reading your articles (even if I don't always agree with them, I think they're well written) and look forward to seeing new ones all the time.
I can agree with you partially on this HD format not taking with the general public. I think the issue isn't so much the format as it is the fact that it is physical media. I was surprised that you didn't mention this in your review at all. The problem isn't that people don't like or don't care or even don't notice the higher definitions (I find it very hard to believe -- even my parents who don't care too much about technology immediately notice the difference between standard definition and high definition shows and movies), the problem is that it is STILL on a disc.
You can claim the death of the formats for various reasons, but none of those reasons are the real issue. Unlike the Beta/VHS wars, the difference here is that a) we already have high-def content available through cable/satellite installations, and b) multiple viewing points (home theater, family room, bedrooms, computers, portables, etc.) means that one piece of media won't suffice.
The content isn't the problem -- people love HD content -- they just don't care to have to buy more physical media to do it. Look at Apple for instance, they're locking in music to a portable device so much so that it is a rare thing to see a portable CD player on anybody anymore. Even if people don't buy ipods, they've gotten used to the idea that a little memory stick can solve their music needs rather than carrying a briefcase full of cds.
With movies, the market is different obviously. People are much more open to the idea of renting than owning because unlike music, they have to be fully immersed in a movie to appreciate it (i.e. you don't turn on a movie and than mow your lawn, do your chores, or go for a jog) and you typically don't find a person watching the same movie 50 times (whereas listening to music playlists and the like can result in thousands of songs being listened to dozens of times each). So the economics of the HD-DVD/Blu-Ray scenario don't appeal to the broader public as much. They need genuine differentiation from standard HD broadcasts. This could come in as having interactive decisions made by the viewer to alter scenes in the movies or provide different outcomes -- something of that nature. People also need more rights to the media in terms of being able to watch it on TVs, PCs, portable players, etc.
So, while I agree with you in part that HD-DVD/Blu-Ray isn't successful (I think that it will grow slowly but be more than just a niche market as you claim), I think the reasons for it not being so are completely different from what you've specified. People aren't as invested in what media says about the formats as you think. People do notice the difference in the picture, but don't necessarily care about how they get it. And yes, the cost of the player and the confusion over the HDMI revisions and different digital audio surround sound technologies partly add to this hands-off mentality of the public right now.
If something like AppleTV or Microsoft's Media PC starts renting HD Movies to people for $3 to $5 a piece, you can kiss both formats good-bye or, as you said, liken them to laser-disc. They'll be in even hotter water if they start selling hd formatted movies. The idea of physical media is the real reason why they aren't going to be successful...
 
Warpdrv

Warpdrv

Audioholic Ninja
I waited for quite some time to decide which format to go with. In the end I got frustrated and got an oppo 981HD which upscales my DVDs and I am happy as can be.

IOW, your article is spot on as far as I am concerned.
Yeah... I did the same thing, I have an Original Xbox, that I was using for a DVD player, which served me well for quite some time, but it started to not read discs as good anymore, and bought a Yamaha DivX upconverting DVD player.

For now, Im happy with it... It just works.
 
Buckeyefan 1

Buckeyefan 1

Audioholic Ninja
Bottom line is that 3-5 years is how long we will have to wait to have a picture of what is going on. In 3 years I expect that an article like this one can be written and actually be able to be honest. To point out why the formats are failing... But, right now, the formats are just getting started and are a long way from failure. They did a lot of things right out of the block or quickly thereafter... Including video quality, audio quality. But, in a few years we will see things hit commodity pricing levels and then we will see whether or not people care.
I agree with this to some extent. The players are finally coming down in price to where people can afford them. There is one rack of HD DVD and Blu ray movies at my local Blockbuster, compared to probably 75 racks of standard DVD "new releases." That right there should tell you this isn't going to happen overnight.

Most of the masses haven't even experienced HD because they don't yet have an HD display. Those that do - the only programming in HD on the local channels doesn't appear until prime time (for the most part). And that's assuming they are renting the HD cable box/satellite box.

Give this some time. All programming will eventually be in HD. There's still so much of it out there now on/in SD and so many folks with SD players/displays, it's not logical or economical to go out and buy a $300 - $500 player for a minimal selection of movies.
 
J

JackT

Audioholic
It seems to me that this issue boils down to 2 questions:

1-Will HD be widely adopted?
2-Will people want a disc player?

It seems to me the answer to both is yes. So if one thinks the high-def disc formats will "fail", what are people going to use for a disc player?? That seems to be the long and short of it, as far as I can see.
 
Canada North

Canada North

Audioholic Intern
What disturbs Me about the whole HD Fiasco

What really disturbs me is that TV should be simple. People talk about Joe Six Pack as if he is a complete fool... but you shouldn't need a PHD in Video and Audio from Stanford University to get HD TV. They have made this process far to complicated.

The marketing machine's got way out of hand from day one. Lets look at the first High Definition TVs on the market. They were HD Ready... No HD content to view, HD Enhanced?... Still don't know what that means? True HD?... Again don't know what that means? For Ten Years and longer they have been releasing product that did not have content and no standardization.

And by the way all of these HD Ready TVs that arn't actually HD in todays definition are counted in the HD adoption statistics that they keep spouting on about.

I still say the greatest mistake the entire industry made was not agreeing on a standard and sticking to it. The thing that made TV and DVD and CD and RCA connectors all success stories was that the standard was set in stone.

HD TV, HD Disks, HD over the Air Content, HD Cable have been and still are these moving targets that just confuse the consumer. Could you imagine going to an appliance store for a new toaster and having them ask " do you want a 10 amp, 14 amp, 20 amp toaster, AC, DC, 110 Volts or 120 Volts... Oh and if you upgrade your electrical system you can get toast 20 % faster.

Old TV was standard. Any broadcaster/content provider could send the signal and it was recieved and displayed correctly. If they would have set a standard like 720P across the board from day one, content providers would have known what they were dealing with. A local TV station is not going to invest in 1 million dollars worth of equipment just to find out that the equipment was not standard or that there biggest competitor is broadcasting in 1080P. With a standard set industry adoption would have been a lot quicker.

With HD DVD and Blu-Ray the same applies. HD Version 1, 1.1, 1.3 .... Blah blah blah. They release a product that was not complete. What kind of confidence is a consumer going to have when you tell him... "Well we are upgrading the software on the disk... but your player may not work anymore". Soon I will have to check the Blu-Ray version number on the disk to see if it is compatible with my player.

The launch of these products was an absolute fiasco.

PS. The High definition Audio formats did not fail just because of content... in the entire time that I had the players, not once did I ever recieve a SACD or DVD audio disk for a present, but I have recieved many CD's. And the same will happen with Blu-ray and HD DVD. I want to buy Joe Sixpack a movie for his birthday. I know he has a nice TV and some fancy equipment... I'll buy him a DVD because I know it will work.
 
A

aec

Enthusiast
"The High definition Audio formats did not fail just because of content... in the entire time that I had the players, not once did I ever recieve a SACD or DVD audio disk for a present, but I have recieved many CD's. And the same will happen with Blu-ray and HD DVD. I want to buy Joe Sixpack a movie for his birthday. I know he has a nice TV and some fancy equipment... I'll buy him a DVD because I know it will work."

I do want to say that I did not mean to diss Joe Sixpack. He is the mainstream consumer that can make or break anything that comes onto the market, and that includes everything outside of HT. That is the point I was trying to make. My wife is well educated and well read. She hates my universal remote. Too complicated. She just wants to watch the freakin' TV - period. Make it easy. The statement above is true for me, too. My family and friends all know I am into these other formats and I have never received an SACD or DVD-A from anyone. Most would not even know where to buy them. That is due in large part to the failure of the manufacturers to properly market their products and make them easy, which is why they are a niche market.
 
If something like AppleTV or Microsoft's Media PC starts renting HD Movies to people for $3 to $5 a piece, you can kiss both formats good-bye or, as you said, liken them to laser-disc. They'll be in even hotter water if they start selling hd formatted movies. The idea of physical media is the real reason why they aren't going to be successful...
Ah, see you didn't read carefully enough as I touched upon this (in both articles, actually).
 
A

aec

Enthusiast
Clint: I am old fashioned and I like to own my music and dvds. My son's generation will fall into the group where everything is wireless and downloadable, so hard versions of music and movies may disappear but I do not think anytime soon. This is not exactly a scientific survey:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=860365
 
avaserfi

avaserfi

Audioholic Ninja
So I was surfing the web for some ps3 information and I came across a funny thread. You pissed of some ps3/blu-ray fan boys hardcore Clint :-D.

http://www.ps3forums.com/showthread.php?t=78355

My favorite quote was someone quote: "To Clint De Boer - go back to the stone age..."

Apparently you know nothing of new technology. Besides who are you to write about A/V equipment knowledgeably psshh acting like its your job or something ;).
 
newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top