Do you use upmixing for stereo music or are you strictly a “2ch purist”?

Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
The new Dolby surround gives me even more reason to not use native 2ch playback with music. I’ve always felt 2ch stereo was flawed for multiple reasons, the biggest one being the lack of a discrete center channel, causing a collapse of the stereo image for anyone off center, and the inability to properly convey the depth and height of the acoustic space in classical recordings.

Dolby surround, being a much more advanced, scalable multi band processor operating in the digital domain, solves the issues with PLII, namely channel bleed due to using wide band steering, and the inability to extract height data. With movies and tv, my experience with it has been nearly as good as discrete multichannel.

Anyways, how many of you take advantage of upmixing for music? How many of you who don’t have taken the time to experiment with it, and why don’t you like it?


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everettT

everettT

Audioholic Spartan
I'm not a huge fan of multi channel up mixing for 2ch recordings. I do listen to SACD and DVD-A.

The point regarding imaging and the need for a center channel isn't global. With the right speakers in the decent room, imaging isn't a problem.

Conversely if one was of the thought that a center channel would help, without 3 identical speakers or an exceptionaly designed horizontal center, you could be creating problems when up mixing.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
I'm not a huge fan of multi channel up mixing for 2ch recordings. I do listen to SACD and DVD-A.

The point regarding imaging and the need for a center channel isn't global. With the right speakers in the decent room, imaging isn't a problem.

Conversely if one was of the thought that a center channel would help, without 3 identical speakers or an exceptionaly designed horizontal center, you could be creating problems when up mixing.
Is it possible to achieve a solid phantom center between the speakers off axis without one? I’ve yet to hear any do so, usually the center image collapses to the nearest side anymore than 15 degrees off axis IME, with very steep toe in of speakers with controlled dispersion, time/intensity trading might expand that to 30 degrees, but it still sounds wrong. Look at Floyd tooled loudspeakers and rooms to see what his opinion is on it.

I wish multichannel music was still a thing, but it seems to have all but died outside of film scores.


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Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
If there is a collapse of the centre image, your speakers are too far apart (it's a common error); sometimes a bit of toe-in is needed as well. Sometimes the speakers are too close to the back or side walls as well in smaller rooms. You can sometimes manage that by bringing the speakers further out into the room (front baffle closer than your audio rack to the listening position), if only temporarily to obtain the right effect so you know what to listen for.

Some people mark the speaker location with tape on the carpet and move them out into the room for listening and back again for when you aren't. i don't, but just so you know it's an option.

A lot of the time just having a big screen "in the way" encourages people to place speakers too far apart, as there is no room otherwise to place them closer. Try to get the TV on the wall so it's not in between the speakers. In fact just having the audio rack between the speakers can kill a lot of the image, but moving it elsewhere does mean longer speaker cables or other issues with placement. Again, just so you know; I do have my rack in between, so it's not a deal-breaker, but it does affect it.

All imaging is affected by "stuff" surrounding the speaker location. That's why bookshelf speakers tend to image well; they are small and easier to get air around them.

A good 2-channel speaker setup should present a good left-to-right image, with the image possibly extending beyond the borders of the speakers (further left than the left speaker and further right than the right)* and a very solid centre image when the source material contains one. You should be able to close your eyes and locate various instruments and vocalists arrayed precisely in space in front of you. It's kind of the whole point of 2-channel sound to have that image with no "hole" in the middle.

A good starting point is to place speakers no further apart than your listening position, and sometimes closer. Eg if you sit 8 feet away, start with speakers 8 feet apart, try straight ahead at first, add a little toe-in if necessary, and you might find they work better as much as 5 feet apart at that listening position. It's a bit system dependent.

To set up a good central image, ideally use a good mono recording with a central solo vocalist image, bring the speakers together until the vocalist is solidly located exactly between the speakers. This is relatively easy if you have a vinyl source as mono records are somewhat easier to find but you could create a CD / digital file with a desktop audio software program from a stereo source. It's a bit harder to do that way as phase information might give a weak central image with some program sources, but it can be done.

Once that central image is solidly located, when you put on a stereo source the image should extend wide and hopefully with depth as well. Depth tends to be stronger in the middle, but it's possible to have it arrayed across the whole image.

There are a few mono box sets available (Beatles, Rolling Stones) but they are expensive (no individual CDs available).

Multichannel is more forgiving of speaker location. Not well known, but Dolby Labs bought the rights to CBS's 4-channel "Quadraphonic" system**, which was essentially stereo with rear ambience, and re-marketed it as the original Dolby Surround (adding the central channel for dialog) for the first 5.1 encoding. By adding the central channel it allowed placing the L + R main speakers further apart, so for stereo think closer together.

* Some systems won't go beyond the physical locations of the speakers, but it's most definitely possible. I find vacuum tube preamps (in particular) do a great job of that, but Solid State can pull it off as well.

** CBS accepted Dolby's offer of $US 250K for the patents and rights, and thought they had robbed the Dolby people for what was by then a dead 4-channel format. CBS is probably banging their heads against the wall today, Dolby Labs has since made many millions in Dolby Digital licensing fees. The rear channel encoding is exactly the same encoder / decoder.
 
Last edited:
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Spartan
Is it possible to achieve a solid phantom center between the speakers off axis without one? I’ve yet to hear any do so, usually the center image collapses to the nearest side anymore than 15 degrees off axis IME, with very steep toe in of speakers with controlled dispersion, time/intensity trading might expand that to 30 degrees, but it still sounds wrong. Look at Floyd tooled loudspeakers and rooms to see what his opinion is on it.

I wish multichannel music was still a thing, but it seems to have all but died outside of film scores.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Using the Philharmonic Audio BMR, note the green trace it's 80 degrees off axis. Assuming most would never would be that far out( I rarely have anyone listening with me with music ) I'd say this speaker wouldn't have any problems imaging just fine except in a poor room / setup.
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Field Marshall
I generally listen to my stereo source material straight up, but I have messed around with PLII etc, and find the rather crude Hafler dynaquad rear channel extraction method to sound the most organic and natural of them all.
 
Dale Doback

Dale Doback

Junior Audioholic
I thought I would never upmix to 5.1, but, after much experimenting, I prefer it now. Go figure.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
I have an older avr with PLIIx/z. I use PLIIx when listening to electronic music(dubstep, NIN etc) as there isn’t necessarily a reference for where the sounds should come from. It’s actually kinda fun, and can be a lot like sound effects in a movie track. With other music recorded in 2ch PLIIx is hit or miss, and randomly places instruments in places they don’t belong, so I mostly listen in 2.3. I can then enjoy music how the guys in the booth did mixing it. I’ve spent countless hours with a laser pointer moving my mains to achieve good SS&I. The baffles are wide, but since I’m 14’ away, the penalty is smaller than if I sat closer. I also use a similar technique as Johnny2bad mentioned in adjusting my surrounds. I’ll set the avr to allch stereo, and turn off my mains. My surround speaker mounts articulate up/down/front/back so I can check for imaging between the rears too, and I get good imaging above and behind my LP as such. Hopefully this winter I’ll be able to comment about dsu and Dolby surround.
 
Dale Doback

Dale Doback

Junior Audioholic
I should mention, my surround channels are way down (-7 on right, -5 on left). And, center channel is NOT destroying the image. :) Enjoying some live Marley right now.



p.s. Optimum Surround: Memory 1 for movies, Memory 2 for music.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
I should mention, my surround channels are way down (-7 on right, -5 on left). ....
And they are still level matched to the other channels or this is your preference?
Movies as well?
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
And they are still level matched to the other channels or this is your preference?
Movies as well?
What I was wondering as well, where did calibration put them in the first place?...there or did you move them there and if so, by how much did you change them?
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
When I listen to music in my posted theater room, it is in DPL, from day 1 of DPL or its variants available in the processor.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Myself, there's nothing "pure" about 2ch so hard to be a purist of such. Some content does sound better in 2ch, some music sounds better in multi-ch (mixed for it usually but sometimes just matrixed). As mentioned, type of music can make a difference.
 
Dale Doback

Dale Doback

Junior Audioholic
And they are still level matched to the other channels or this is your preference?
Movies as well?
Yes, my preference for music. Only other manual adjustment I have to make is +2 db for subwoofers in 'Memory 1' when I am watching Cable TV (Xfinity 1). I listen to music on my nVidia Shield Pro and movies on my Sony UBP-X800.
Oh yeah, I listen to vTuner quite a bit as well (App came with SC-99).

p.s. I would have a signature with my setup listed, but, I don't know how.
 
Last edited:
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
Using the Philharmonic Audio BMR, note the green trace it's 80 degrees off axis. Assuming most would never would be that far out( I rarely have anyone listening with me with music ) I'd say this speaker wouldn't have any problems imaging just fine except in a poor room / setup.
Don’t have any problems off axis, but in any system if one sits closer to the left or right speaker the image will shift towards the closer speaker, there’s no way around it.

If there is a collapse of the centre image, your speakers are too far apart (it's a common error); sometimes a bit of toe-in is needed as well. Sometimes the speakers are too close to the back or side walls as well in smaller rooms. You can sometimes manage that by bringing the speakers further out into the room (front baffle closer than your audio rack to the listening position), if only temporarily to obtain the right effect so you know what to listen for.

Some people mark the speaker location with tape on the carpet and move them out into the room for listening and back again for when you aren't. i don't, but just so you know it's an option.

A lot of the time just having a big screen "in the way" encourages people to place speakers too far apart, as there is no room otherwise to place them closer. Try to get the TV on the wall so it's not in between the speakers. In fact just having the audio rack between the speakers can kill a lot of the image, but moving it elsewhere does mean longer speaker cables or other issues with placement. Again, just so you know; I do have my rack in between, so it's not a deal-breaker, but it does affect it.

All imaging is affected by "stuff" surrounding the speaker location. That's why bookshelf speakers tend to image well; they are small and easier to get air around them.

A good 2-channel speaker setup should present a good left-to-right image, with the image possibly extending beyond the borders of the speakers (further left than the left speaker and further right than the right)* and a very solid centre image when the source material contains one. You should be able to close your eyes and locate various instruments and vocalists arrayed precisely in space in front of you. It's kind of the whole point of 2-channel sound to have that image with no "hole" in the middle.

A good starting point is to place speakers no further apart than your listening position, and sometimes closer. Eg if you sit 8 feet away, start with speakers 8 feet apart, try straight ahead at first, add a little toe-in if necessary, and you might find they work better as much as 5 feet apart at that listening position. It's a bit system dependent.

To set up a good central image, ideally use a good mono recording with a central solo vocalist image, bring the speakers together until the vocalist is solidly located exactly between the speakers. This is relatively easy if you have a vinyl source as mono records are somewhat easier to find but you could create a CD / digital file with a desktop audio software program from a stereo source. It's a bit harder to do that way as phase information might give a weak central image with some program sources, but it can be done.

Once that central image is solidly located, when you put on a stereo source the image should extend wide and hopefully with depth as well. Depth tends to be stronger in the middle, but it's possible to have it arrayed across the whole image.

There are a few mono box sets available (Beatles, Rolling Stones) but they are expensive (no individual CDs available).

Multichannel is more forgiving of speaker location. Not well known, but Dolby Labs bought the rights to CBS's 4-channel "Quadraphonic" system**, which was essentially stereo with rear ambience, and re-marketed it as the original Dolby Surround (adding the central channel for dialog) for the first 5.1 encoding. By adding the central channel it allowed placing the L + R main speakers further apart, so for stereo think closer together.

* Some systems won't go beyond the physical locations of the speakers, but it's most definitely possible. I find vacuum tube preamps (in particular) do a great job of that, but Solid State can pull it off as well.

** CBS accepted Dolby's offer of $US 250K for the patents and rights, and thought they had robbed the Dolby people for what was by then a dead 4-channel format. CBS is probably banging their heads against the wall today, Dolby Labs has since made many millions in Dolby Digital licensing fees. The rear channel encoding is exactly the same encoder / decoder.
I’ve found I prefer a 22 degree angle vs 30 degree. I sit 10.5’ away and have my speakers about 7.5’ apart, toed in at a 22 degree angle. I can get a phantom center, but it never sounds quite as solid as a real center channel, this has been my experience regardless of the speakers used or the room. Not saying stereo doesn’t work, just that the illusion of perfect imaging falls apart off axis.

Unfortunately proper placement of my speakers requires them being 2’ from the side walls, which probably doesn’t help. Treating some of the reflections in my room helped bring it into focus more, but it’s still not a replacement for a real center.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
A well defined and spatially rooted center image is the hallmark of a properly set up stereo system. The listening room and seat location precludes good stereo imaging. Specifically, left/right symmetry.

Lop-sided Iayouts create asymmetric direct and reflected sound energy or uneven sound fields. Equally important, the distance differences affects signal arrival and consequently timing related psychoacoustics. These aberrations when combined will result in poor imaging across the front soundstage in general and a smeared center image.

From personal experience, lot of this can be addressed using a pre-pro with distance and volume trim settings, albeit, not fixed entirely. (Soap box moment alert: People with less than perfect listening environments have much to gain by using the lowly AVR for 2.x listening when compared with expensive stereo pre-amps sans distance and volume correction. /r)

I am curious to try time-intensity trading with constant directivity speakers. Would this arrangement adequately compensate for less than perfect left/right room symmetry and seat not exactly on center axis. Too many questions, not enough room.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
I have an older avr with PLIIx/z. I use PLIIx when listening to electronic music(dubstep, NIN etc) as there isn’t necessarily a reference for where the sounds should come from. It’s actually kinda fun, and can be a lot like sound effects in a movie track. With other music recorded in 2ch PLIIx is hit or miss, and randomly places instruments in places they don’t belong, so I mostly listen in 2.3. I can then enjoy music how the guys in the booth did mixing it. I’ve spent countless hours with a laser pointer moving my mains to achieve good SS&I. The baffles are wide, but since I’m 14’ away, the penalty is smaller than if I sat closer. I also use a similar technique as Johnny2bad mentioned in adjusting my surrounds. I’ll set the avr to allch stereo, and turn off my mains. My surround speaker mounts articulate up/down/front/back so I can check for imaging between the rears too, and I get good imaging above and behind my LP as such. Hopefully this winter I’ll be able to comment about dsu and Dolby surround.
I do something similar as well, I set the avr to “full mono”, sit in the center, and check to see if the image sounds like it’s floating in the middle of the room (I have top middle speakers as well). This works out well for adjusting both level and distance (time alignment) settings.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
A well defined and spatially rooted center image is the hallmark of a properly set up stereo system. The listening room and seat location precludes good stereo imaging. Specifically, left/right symmetry.

Lop-sided Iayouts create asymmetric direct and reflected sound energy or uneven sound fields. Equally important, the distance differences affects signal arrival and consequently timing related psychoacoustics. These aberrations when combined will result in poor imaging across the front soundstage in general and a smeared center image.

From personal experience, lot of this can be addressed using a pre-pro with distance and volume trim settings, albeit, not fixed entirely. (Soap box moment alert: People with less than perfect listening environments have much to gain by using the lowly AVR for 2.x listening when compared with expensive stereo pre-amps sans distance and volume correction. /r)

I am curious to try time-intensity trading with constant directivity speakers. Would this arrangement adequately compensate for less than perfect left/right room symmetry and seat not exactly on center axis. Too many questions, not enough room.
Which is why I have my system setup entirely symmetric, each speaker pair is exactly the same distance from the mlp, toed in exactly to the mid point, and the center is directly between the l/r. All speakers are time aligned down to 1/10th of a foot, if I play a mono track routed to all 7 speakers in a 5.1.2 setup, the image appears to float directly in the middle of the room.

I believe time intensity trading requires a more narrow dispersion pattern than one would find in most home audio speakers designed for controlled directivity. In order for time intensity trading to work, the horn or waveguide must have tight pattern control from 1600hz on up, since 1600hz is the frequency where localization shifts from interaural time differences to interaural level differences, due to the wavelengths being smaller than the head.

The RP-150m I’m currently using for my l/r has pretty tightly controlled dispersion starting at 1800hz and continuing to 14khz, (the woofer is crossed over to the horn at 1500hz), with a uniform dispersion pattern of 90 degrees (+-45 degrees), each additional 15 degrees off axis gives a 2dB drop in level from 1.8khz-14khz, with 45 degrees off axis being -6dB.



I may have to try some steeper toe in angles to see if I can get the time intensity trading to work, I believe you’re supposed to toe them in so that they’re aimed at a point about 2’ in front of the mlp, so that the “lines” intersect with the opposite ear.

Earl Geddes has written much about controlled dispersion speakers and time intensity trading, but recommends dispersion patterns that I personally feel are much too narrow for home theater use, something like 20-30 degrees horizontally. Since we must inevitably place speakers into rooms and have to deal with the reflections from the walls, floor, and ceiling, it’s important that the sound that bounces off those surfaces at early reflection spots is very similar to the direct sound. A wider dispersion pattern such as 90 degrees ensures that in a majority of rooms and placement situations (outside of very wide rooms where the speakers are placed very far from the side walls), the reflected sound has the same frequency response as the direct sound, but is slightly attenuated.

A narrow dispersion pattern might work for a single listener seated relatively close to the speakers, but for home theater, people often sit as far as 10-12 ft away, and multiple seats are off axis, the sofa along the side wall in my living room is only about 35 degrees off axis, which means even the farthest seat falls in the coverage pattern, and every seat in the house receives uniform frequency response. Toeing them in at a steep angle, say, 40 degrees may offer good time intensity trading for seats nearer the middle of the room, but places the side wall seats outside of the speakers coverage pattern.
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Spartan
Don’t have any problems off axis, but in any system if one sits closer to the left or right speaker the image will shift towards the closer speaker, there’s no way around it.



I’ve found I prefer a 22 degree angle vs 30 degree. I sit 10.5’ away and have my speakers about 7.5’ apart, toed in at a 22 degree angle. I can get a phantom center, but it never sounds quite as solid as a real center channel, this has been my experience regardless of the speakers used or the room. Not saying stereo doesn’t work, just that the illusion of perfect imaging falls apart off axis.

Unfortunately proper placement of my speakers requires them being 2’ from the side walls, which probably doesn’t help. Treating some of the reflections in my room helped bring it into focus more, but it’s still not a replacement for a real center.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The center image is still there, just as if you were sitting off to the side of a live performance. Again how often when listening to 2ch music do you sit outside of the mlp? You should really see if you can start demoing good speakers properly setup. Look on the Audiocircle forums to see if there are people in your area that will demo their systems. Maybe members here can as well. Getting out beyond your current setup and "preferred" speaker design would help broaden your audio nirvana.
 
2

2channel lover

Audioholic Field Marshall
The new Dolby surround gives me even more reason to not use native 2ch playback with music. I’ve always felt 2ch stereo was flawed for multiple reasons, the biggest one being the lack of a discrete center channel, causing a collapse of the stereo image for anyone off center, and the inability to properly convey the depth and height of the acoustic space in classical recordings.

Dolby surround, being a much more advanced, scalable multi band processor operating in the digital domain, solves the issues with PLII, namely channel bleed due to using wide band steering, and the inability to extract height data. With movies and tv, my experience with it has been nearly as good as discrete multichannel.

Anyways, how many of you take advantage of upmixing for music? How many of you who don’t have taken the time to experiment with it, and why don’t you like it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
As my screen name implies...I'm a 2 ch fan, and when done right with good speakers, imaging, and sound stage are ideal...for the intended listeners in the sweet spot.

It's less than ideal as you eluded to if your listening position is not great.

That said...I have certainly bought into multi-channel SACDs. Upmixing a standard 2 ch signal to a surround mode? I've tried it a few times and prefer stereo.
 

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