Simaudio Moon CP-8 AV Processor: A Denon Receiver in Sim Clothing?

[AV_Nut]

I'll give you this: It's a much better moderated position than most. You said differences. It would be interesting to take a Blue Jeans $20 HDMI and A/B against the wavelink. Are just asserting Audio Quality? Or including Video Quality?

ZERO difference in video quality. To my eye anyways but I didn't go back and forth. I'm an audio guy. I want a beautiful picture and that is all.

See Wire World - HDMI cables

According to WW's designer, their patented "DNA Helix" makes their product much faster than others. Certainly their published specs are FAR better than any I have ever found. WW said, "no one is close". When I asked what I was hearing after the fact, they said more or less: "bandwidth, bandwidth, bandwidth". So if Blue Jeans spent R&D dollars and they had the technical know how, I would say they they could compete. But if I am a betting man, they are simply higher margin $3 HDMI cables marked up to $20. Believe what you want about the outcome. But they absolutely have incredible speeds. Far far and away faster than others. They have a white paper on the topic to back-up their claims. Truthfully, I never looked at the paper. I can attach it if someone can show me how (it is a PDF).

I brought in the product below the "DNA Helix" and they are not cheap. Honestly, I didn't hear any difference. I went out of my way to never use a length above 1 meter. But I easily head benefits at 1 Meter. I never tried listening to the 2 meter. I put my HTPC very close to the 8801 so I could use the 0.3 Meter (28Gbps). So above that Starlight 7 version, you are barely squeaking out 8% faster and spending a whole lot more. That said. I jumped off the deep end and bought a Silver Series. I have not had a chance to listen to that one. Realistically, Silver and platinum merely have a lower ohms per square. But the material cost is a bit higher (and I am sure the mark-up). But methodology trumps the metallurgy.

I prefer to do my comparisons with at least 5 other sets of ears. That way I can simply shut-up and after we all listen, and we compare notes one-by-one. There is really no need to worry about quickly changing the cables. If you know you hear a difference, have your wife or whoever rotate it back and forth in the blind. You will peg it off which wire is which. I've done it and it is really easy. That said, if anyone wants to see this in action and they are located in MN. PM me. You will be invited to the next shindig.
I am 100% convinced I am hearing the real-deal especially on higher resolution multi-channel music. We all heard it and passed in the blind in disbelief.

Don't take my word for it. I will send you out a 1 Meter. I won't charge your card. If you like it, send me a check. If you don't, send it back. To my ears at least, it was the best dollars spent. I have to count but I think I sold about 30 of these since July (mostly one one per person) and normally with a new prepro. So people were too lazy to A-B them and another said he heard no difference. At least 1/2 (15?) of the people told me exactly what I just said. I have gone out of my way to make sure I am not selling snake oil so it is the reason why i asked them for a report back. When they said they didn't have time, I told them to try so they know they were not buying fluff.

The overwhelming majority of my customers have a Denon or Marantz and nearly all prepro's. So my data is highly centered around these products. Logic tells me if it works on a 8801, it will work on (fill in the blank). Also, the majority of my customers bought the one HDMI cable for their Oppo or their HTPC. Again, I am not suggesting that this it won't work for say a Panny or Denon DVD player. I am only pointing out what data I have collected. What I will say with complete certainty is in the systems that I have heard in the blind, there is no human with working ears that would say we are full of ourselves. Anyone who is in MN can hear it and see me pass for themselves.

I recognize that to some, I just torched my credibility. Certainly smarter people on the topic than myself will disagree and they will be extremely convincing. I was in that camp since 2007. My response is they factually never tired it a 28Gbps HDMI cable. To me at least, it closes the gap between an analog output of ANY DVD player going into analog of a prepro. So if you are following, people on AVS who LOVE the Oppo analog connection think it is because the Oppo analog in is superior. I heard "superior" sound using a crappy $100 DVD player. The prepro's DAC's should ibe MUCH better. So what is happening? My unsubstantiated theory is that something in the HDMI transmission is the culprit and this silly cable "fixes" it. I have no other explanation.

 

[AV_Nut]

Full of them? Who claimed to be experts on listening in the blind? At the most people on this thread people asked you how you did your blind listening, that does not mean they claim to be expert. There may have been people saying things like you have to match volume to within X dB, ability to switch quickly etc., but as you are alluding to, those basic stuff are Googleable/Bingable within minutes, let alone 3 hours of research and could well be "parroted" from forums to forums and we should all know those were not necessarily expert talks. Well I guess in a sense we are in sort of in agreement on this but it would have been better if we can all use nicer tones.

I see what you are saying. I guess I get a little sensitive. When forum members start talking about audible memory, level matched, DBT protocol etc, it would be nice if they have tried it themselves. Same goes for people who assume that testing in the blind is easy. That could not be farther from the truth. But you are right PENG, I was a wee bit too sensitive. Sorry about that.

There are some inherent flaws with in testing in the blind and I will give you a quick overview. People blame the placebo effect when they hear something and it goes away in the blind. I propose no one can pass in the blind with fairly moderate differences that we all think is "obvious" unless they figure out away to remove their emotions and simply relax. That is extremely difficult and it takes a lot of practice. Allow me to expand... As I said before, there are days where your system sounds poor. The reason is all in your head. On those days, rest assured "all amps DO sound the same". I don't care if you use a tube amp versus a Krell. In the blind, you WILL fail using a DBT. I've experienced it many times on pairs that I passed on before.

Same drill on ABX testing. When you rapid fire back and forth comparing (what people tell you to do because of "audible memory"), you better figure out a way to not concentrate. When you do, I promise you can feel yourself guessing. I stop, try and relax, and continue. That's because the differences disappear and you just inaccurately concluded that there is no differences.

The biggest kiss of death in ABX testing is to go back and forth. When you do, I propose no human being can ever pass between two linear non-clipping amps. Better yet, I will take anybody up on that challenge. I will give 10:1 odds and I will give my guaranteed winnings to charity and you can pick the two amps or preamps to A-B. Common sense tells you to compare and listen for those difference back and forth. Again, you just made it nearly impossible to pass znd now are at a huge disadvantage. As you feel yourself guess (and you will know) the remaining stress will crush the real differences to zero.

The only way I can pass using the box is by never ever going back and forth to compare. I do everything in my power not to focus and that is really tough. Not to listen for those differences that you hear outside of the blind. I know... This seems incredibly illogical. So I say the perfect way to test in the blind is actually to have breaks. I would much rather have someone switch that HDMI cable every 20 seconds as we shoot the crap about life in between. Better yet, have 5 people listen all privately charting what they hear. Then we though out the outliers (the guy who tried to concentrate) and the majority rules. The pass rate is incredibly high using this approach. That is why I like listening in the blind with others. The difference are then "obvious".

So that is what I mean by DBT is flawed. I did dozens of other experiments as well. This is not to say that I always heard differences and I only failed because of the method. I too fail because of the placebo effect. Additionally, that doesn't mean that the differences are insignificant. Try a taste test between Diet Coke and Diet Pepsi. Pretty obvious which is which. But allow me to perform a DBT (I have done this). I tested about 15 people, no one could pass. I think this these are intertwined with DBT audio testing.

 

[PENG]

The only way I can pass using the box is by never ever going back and forth to compare. I do everything in my power not to focus and that is really tough. Not to listen for those differences that you hear outside of the blind. I know... This seems incredibly illogical. So I say the perfect way to test in the blind is actually to have breaks. I would much rather have someone switch that HDMI cable every 20 seconds as we shoot the crap about life in between. Better yet, have 5 people listen all privately charting what they hear. Then we though out the outliers (the guy who tried to concentrate) and the majority rules. The pass rate is incredibly high using this approach. That is why I like listening in the blind with others. The difference are then "obvious".

So that is what I mean by DBT is flawed. I did dozens of other experiments as well. This is not to say that I always heard differences and I only failed because of the method. I too fail because of the placebo effect. Additionally, that doesn't mean that the differences are insignificant. Try a taste test between Diet Coke and Diet Pepsi. Pretty obvious which is which. But allow me to perform a DBT (I have done this). I tested about 15 people, no one could pass. I think this these are intertwined with DBT audio testing.

Makes sense to me, to an extent, but try to telling people like Rich (sorry Rich, just kidding, I mean sort of..) who claimed to hear (audio) little difference clearly even between setting the 8801 to game mode in pure direct and other video modes.

Now please answer my other question and recommend which AR preamp model in the used market that you think can sound better than the 8801. I have compared 3 preamps to the 8801 and think I can rank them, and would place the 8801 and the GFP565 equal in 3rd place but am sure would fail in even a single blind test. Regardless, I do want to own an AR preamp for other reasons.

I find you posts going from entertaining to now beginning to make some sense, scarely come to think of it.

 

[rnatalli]

I'm surprised I missed this thread. Kind of reminds me when Lexicon literally dropped an Oppo player into their chassis.

 

[AV_Nut]

Now please answer my other question and recommend which AR preamp model in the used market that you think can sound better than the 8801.

I find you posts going from entertaining to now beginning to make some sense, scarely come to think of it.

Which AR preamps sound better than the 8801? I suspect nearly all of them so long as the tubes are good. I don't want to lead you down the wrong path. I have not heard them all and only in customers systems (or by taking them in on trade and checking them out). I never bothered to write down the model numbers. I love the theater bypass loop option and their incredible holographics (a.k.a. 3D / depth). That was struck me the most every time I heard one of their preamps.

My best advice is call AR and pick their tech supports brain. Of course, get something that is already depreciated in case you didn't guess right. I am not a fan of their amps. They are "good". For that matter, I don't like any tube amps (hybrids are o.k.). IMHO, some of the worst tube gear I have heard was McIntosh. To the topic above. I suspect if I wanted to ABX any two amps to prove there is a difference, I'd pick a McIntosh. Other peoples mileage may vary.

 

[RichB]

Makes sense to me, to an extent, but try to telling people like Rich (sorry Rich, just kidding, I mean sort of..) who claimed to hear (audio) little difference clearly even between setting the 8801 to game mode in pure direct and other video modes.

Hey, I still can but you have to use fast switching because it is subtle.
In order to try this you have to start the 8801 in Direct mode and then connect using the web page to control the processor.

Using the web page in Direct or Pure Direct, I have the following settings:

Auto Lip Sync: Off
...
HDMI Pass-thru: Off
DDMI Control: Off
Video Mode: Auto
Video Conversion: On
I/P Scaler: Off

Now, toggle Video mode from Auto to Game. It is subtle.
Game is a just a hair more dynamic. I also measured .5 watt less power usage with game mode.
Oppo has Pure video mode and guess what, it makes zero difference to the sound.
The AV8801 front panel display on/off makes no difference to the sound.

Thanks for reminding me, I just tried it again, I am back to Game mode

My AV8801 trigger failed and the power receptacle as loose and it was hard to plug it in properly.
I discovered this when I was connecting other equipment heard loud hissing coming from my speakers. It took me a while to realize that wiggling the Marantz code cured the problem.

My 3 week wait for the repair helped me to realize just how good the BDP-105 sounds connected directly to my amp.

I disagree with fast switching, I use this when comparing the input types and their are obvious differences in sound quality between, HDMI, COAX, XLR, and 7.1 inputs from the BDP-105.
When I receive your cable, I will put it through its paces.
I am a skeptic. There are audible differences between the COAX and HDMI inputs with LPCM sources. Unlike encoded formats which are data, LPCM is a stream. It is packed between video frames, processed by the HDMI receivers, buffered and re-clocked.
It is possible that HDMI receiver manufacturers do not consider LPCM handling on the top of their feature list. If something is happening here, it more likely to be in the preamp than the cable.
Still, I am looking forward to trying your cable

I have to admit, I do not buy into audiophile USB cable are better.
I have tried many cable, I even used an active USB extender cable with the BDP-105 USB DAC and it made no difference to the sound.

My last point is: You customers may prefer the AV8801 to the AVP but that does not necessarily make it better. It might just be brighter, how many veils have been lifted by a little treble boost.

I have compared Pure Direct and Direct mode as well with the 7.1 analog inputs. Direct is a bit thinner and brighter.

Also, when using Audyssey, it adjusted the rear channels 3 DB higher than flat.
I imaging there were many proclamations of vastly improved surround sound as a result.

- Rich

 

[jinjuku]

ZERO difference in video quality. To my eye anyways but I didn't go back and forth. I'm an audio guy. I want a beautiful picture and that is all.

See Wire World - HDMI cables

According to WW's designer, their patented "DNA Helix" makes their product much faster than others.

I'm confused you have mentioned both bandwidth and faster. Are you talking signal propagation rates? Do the WW guys have any studies showing the electron propagation rate increase and what conditions?

Are we talking bit stream or LCPM?

I also use computers for both my Home Theater (non-critical listening) and my 2.0. My 2.0 is a purist setup: Computer>Pro-Audio Mastering Grade sound card>Amp>Speakers. No HDMI to be found there.

 

[jinjuku]

Hey, I still can but you have to use fast switching because it is subtle.
In order to try this you have to start the 8801 in Direct mode and then connect using the web page to control the processor.

Using the web page in Direct or Pure Direct, I have the following settings:

Auto Lip Sync: Off
...
HDMI Pass-thru: Off
DDMI Control: Off
Video Mode: Auto
Video Conversion: On
I/P Scaler: Off

Now, toggle Video mode from Auto to Game. It subtle.
Game is a just a hair more dynamic. I also measured .5 watt less usage with game mode.
Oppo has Pure video mode and guess what, it makes zero difference to the sound.
The AV8801 front panel display on/off makes no difference to the sound.

Ok this catches me by surprise. I know instantly if Game or any other effects mode is on my Denon vs Stereo or Direct.

 

[gene]

ZERO difference in video quality. To my eye anyways but I didn't go back and forth. I'm an audio guy. I want a beautiful picture and that is all.

See Wire World - HDMI cables

According to WW's designer, their patented "DNA Helix" makes their product much faster than others. Certainly their published specs are FAR better than any I have ever found. WW said, "no one is close". When I asked what I was hearing after the fact, they said more or less: "bandwidth, bandwidth, bandwidth". So if Blue Jeans spent R&D dollars and they had the technical know how, I would say they they could compete. But if I am a betting man, they are simply higher margin $3 HDMI cables marked up to $20. Believe what you want about the outcome. But they absolutely have incredible speeds. Far far and away faster than others. They have a white paper on the topic to back-up their claims. Truthfully, I never looked at the paper. I can attach it if someone can show me how (it is a PDF).

I brought in the product below the "DNA Helix" and they are not cheap. Honestly, I didn't hear any difference. I went out of my way to never use a length above 1 meter. But I easily head benefits at 1 Meter. I never tried listening to the 2 meter. I put my HTPC very close to the 8801 so I could use the 0.3 Meter (28Gbps). So above that Starlight 7 version, you are barely squeaking out 8% faster and spending a whole lot more. That said. I jumped off the deep end and bought a Silver Series. I have not had a chance to listen to that one. Realistically, Silver and platinum merely have a lower ohms per square. But the material cost is a bit higher (and I am sure the mark-up). But methodology trumps the metallurgy.

I prefer to do my comparisons with at least 5 other sets of ears. That way I can simply shut-up and after we all listen, and we compare notes one-by-one. There is really no need to worry about quickly changing the cables. If you know you hear a difference, have your wife or whoever rotate it back and forth in the blind. You will peg it off which wire is which. I've done it and it is really easy. That said, if anyone wants to see this in action and they are located in MN. PM me. You will be invited to the next shindig.
I am 100% convinced I am hearing the real-deal especially on higher resolution multi-channel music. We all heard it and passed in the blind in disbelief.

Don't take my word for it. I will send you out a 1 Meter. I won't charge your card. If you like it, send me a check. If you don't, send it back. To my ears at least, it was the best dollars spent. I have to count but I think I sold about 30 of these since July (mostly one one per person) and normally with a new prepro. So people were too lazy to A-B them and another said he heard no difference. At least 1/2 (15?) of the people told me exactly what I just said. I have gone out of my way to make sure I am not selling snake oil so it is the reason why i asked them for a report back. When they said they didn't have time, I told them to try so they know they were not buying fluff.

The overwhelming majority of my customers have a Denon or Marantz and nearly all prepro's. So my data is highly centered around these products. Logic tells me if it works on a 8801, it will work on (fill in the blank). Also, the majority of my customers bought the one HDMI cable for their Oppo or their HTPC. Again, I am not suggesting that this it won't work for say a Panny or Denon DVD player. I am only pointing out what data I have collected. What I will say with complete certainty is in the systems that I have heard in the blind, there is no human with working ears that would say we are full of ourselves. Anyone who is in MN can hear it and see me pass for themselves.

I recognize that to some, I just torched my credibility. Certainly smarter people on the topic than myself will disagree and they will be extremely convincing. I was in that camp since 2007. My response is they factually never tired it a 28Gbps HDMI cable. To me at least, it closes the gap between an analog output of ANY DVD player going into analog of a prepro. So if you are following, people on AVS who LOVE the Oppo analog connection think it is because the Oppo analog in is superior. I heard "superior" sound using a crappy $100 DVD player. The prepro's DAC's should ibe MUCH better. So what is happening? My unsubstantiated theory is that something in the HDMI transmission is the culprit and this silly cable "fixes" it. I have no other explanation.

The Wireworld website makes me a bit sick to my stomach, especially since Dealers regurgitate this to their customers as scientific fact. So sad especially claiming that you can't see a difference in video but you do hear a difference and with a 1 meter cable no less!

Here is a little reality check:
HDMI Cable Speed & Features Explained | Audioholics

Long HDMI Cable Bench Tests - Monster Cable Shootout | Audioholics

 

[jinjuku]

The Wireworld website makes me a bit sick to my stomach, especially since Dealers regurgitate this to their customers as scientific fact. So sad especially claiming that you can't see a difference in video but you do hear a difference and with a 1 meter cable no less!

Here is a little reality check:
HDMI Cable Speed & Features Explained | Audioholics

Long HDMI Cable Bench Tests - Monster Cable Shootout | Audioholics

Gene here is a rather ingenious test rig proposed by fellow forum member Habanero Monk.

 

[AV_Nut]

The Wireworld website makes me a bit sick to my stomach, especially since Dealers regurgitate this to their customers as scientific fact. So sad especially claiming that you can't see a difference in video but you do hear a difference and with a 1 meter cable no less!

Here is a little reality check:
HDMI Cable Speed & Features Explained | Audioholics

Long HDMI Cable Bench Tests - Monster Cable Shootout | Audioholics

I look at it differently. As forcefully as I can, I want my customers to A-B products and ship it back if they don't hear a improvement. I don't need to steal from people and push snake oil. You know my position. I listen, do my due diligence, bounce it off others and therefore feel comfortable with what I sell. As I have said before, I (basically) only care about the end result. You have been around the block inside of this industry. Do you know many dealers or manufactures who own a double blind box? Hopefully you can see I am actually interested in helping people get value.

On others forums, their is a vocal subset that positively think your viewpoint (and mine) are equally sickening. They KNOW all non clipping linear amps sound the same. They know that all preamps (with a flat FR are sonically identical). That's because the measurements (in their mind) == over engineer specs. They understand that no one has ever publicly passed in a double blind cable comparison. Hence, in their mind, every single wire vendor sells snake oil, and every audiophile company is more or less a joke. They don't care if it measures differently. In their mind, they are right and we are wrong. Because an amp makes a signal bigger and a preamp varies the level. In their view, only incompetent designs sound different. Hence, to them you (and I) are ONLY interested in money or are technical buffoons. They are convinced without any question in their mind. So are they right? Who has publicly verified their super powers via a double blind test. Reviewers run from the opportunity to prove there listening powers and actually proving there are differences.

Back to the HDMI cables.

So we have a few possibilities:
1. I am inept.
2. I am unethical.
3. You have not heard what I heard and WW is right (as "verified" by myself and others).

You are in FL, WW is in FL. Go out and listen. Take your engineering hat off for a moment and sonically listen THEN call them "sickening". I would be delighted for show you what we hear. Send off your Mod if you are busy. Because option # 3 ^^ is the correct answer.

Let's meet-up at the Synergistic Research booth at CES. It will only take a 1/2 hour. I am guessing because you think they sell snake oil, you don't need to stop. But you will hear some rather odd things going on. For instance they will apply a field on their (overpriced) power cables and watch how it improves the sound. They can do it over and over for you. Then we can listen to those resonating jobbies as they place them in the room. And then remove them. One by one hear how it shifts the sound. We both can call it B.S. together as we look on in amazement. Because we both know if cannot possibly happen. I am not an SR dealer. I'd much rather advise my customers to buy better speakers, room treatments, etc.

Just realize that there are a lot of extremely smart folks (who also know better) and hear a differences. They are manufactures and designers in this audiophile community that do not make wires. So goes the age old debate goes on and the customer is sitting and trying to figure it out.

 

[gene]

HDMI vs Coax for LPCM

Hey, I still can but you have to use fast switching because it is subtle.
In order to try this you have to start the 8801 in Direct mode and then connect using the web page to control the processor.

Using the web page in Direct or Pure Direct, I have the following settings:

Auto Lip Sync: Off
...
HDMI Pass-thru: Off
DDMI Control: Off
Video Mode: Auto
Video Conversion: On
I/P Scaler: Off

Now, toggle Video mode from Auto to Game. It is subtle.
Game is a just a hair more dynamic. I also measured .5 watt less power usage with game mode.
Oppo has Pure video mode and guess what, it makes zero difference to the sound.
The AV8801 front panel display on/off makes no difference to the sound.

Thanks for reminding me, I just tried it again, I am back to Game mode

My AV8801 trigger failed and the power receptacle as loose and it was hard to plug it in properly.
I discovered this when I was connecting other equipment heard loud hissing coming from my speakers. It took me a while to realize that wiggling the Marantz code cured the problem.

My 3 week wait for the repair helped me to realize just how good the BDP-105 sounds connected directly to my amp.

I disagree with fast switching, I use this when comparing the input types and their are obvious differences in sound quality between, HDMI, COAX, XLR, and 7.1 inputs from the BDP-105.
When I receive your cable, I will put it through its paces.
I am a skeptic. There are audible differences between the COAX and HDMI inputs with LPCM sources. Unlike encoded formats which are data, LPCM is a stream. It is packed between video frames, processed by the HDMI receivers, buffered and re-clocked.
It is possible that HDMI receiver manufacturers do not consider LPCM handling on the top of their feature list. If something is happening here, it more likely to be in the preamp than the cable.
Still, I am looking forward to trying your cable

I have to admit, I do not buy into audiophile USB cable are better.
I have tried many cable, I even used an active USB extender cable with the BDP-105 USB DAC and it made no difference to the sound.

My last point is: You customers may prefer the AV8801 to the AVP but that does not necessarily make it better. It might just be brighter, how many veils have been lifted by a little treble boost.

I have compared Pure Direct and Direct mode as well with the 7.1 analog inputs. Direct is a bit thinner and brighter.

Also, when using Audyssey, it adjusted the rear channels 3 DB higher than flat.
I imaging there were many proclamations of vastly improved surround sound as a result.

- Rich

<!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]-->
The audible differences you are describing between HDMI vs COAX for LPCM have NOTHING to do with the cable.


With most Blu-ray players I tested, I've been able to verify that the COAX output and HDMI LPCM output from a redbook CD have identical data. This is easily done on my APx585 HDMI Audio Analyzer. The “Bit Test” track on the AP CD can be used to confirm that all digital outputs are “bit-perfect”.


There is one important difference between COAX and HDMI though. For the COAX output, the audio clock is encoded into the S/PDIF data stream and extracted by the receiving device (standalone DAC or A/V receiver). For the HDMI output, the audio clock is not transmitted at all. Instead, the source (player) transmits two numbers (N and CTS) to let the receiving device know how to regenerate the audio clock from the video clock. The regenerated clock is usually not very high quality if the A/V receiver does not use fancy clock regeneration circuits. Jitter performance of the HDMI LPCM audio is usually not as good as the COAX output. This is a disadvantage of HDMI technology and its implementation on the receiver side especially for older equipment using HDMI 1.2 or lower. I don't believe its much of an issue on modern equipment these days but it's something worth testing on future reviews.

I don't hear this limitation you're describing on the Denon AVP but if you're claiming you hear it on the 8801 than its possible the 8801 clock circuit is the culprit.

Edit. I checked with a trusted source in the industry, Jason Liao of Oppo and here is what he has to say on this topic:
The clock regeneration issue is always the same for all version of HDMI. HDMI 1.3 adds an “Audio Rate Control” feature which allows the receiver to use an audio clock that is not synchronized with the video clock. This will result in the source and receiver running at slightly different clock speed, and buffer underrun or overrun can happen. Audio Rate Control deals with the buffer issue by using CEC to tell the source to speed up or slow down audio data rate. I am not sure how many AV receivers have implemented this feature.


<!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <![endif]-->

<!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <![endif]-->

 

[gene]

I look at it differently. As forcefully as I can, I want my customers to A-B products and ship it back if they don't hear a improvement. I don't need to steal from people and push snake oil. You know my position. I listen, do my due diligence, bounce it off others and therefore feel comfortable with what I sell. As I have said before, I (basically) only care about the end result. You have been around the block inside of this industry. Do you know many dealers or manufactures who own a double blind box? Hopefully you can see I am actually interested in helping people get value.

On others forums, their is a vocal subset that positively think your viewpoint (and mine) are equally sickening. They KNOW all non clipping linear amps sound the same. They know that all preamps (with a flat FR are sonically identical). That's because the measurements (in their mind) == over engineer specs. They understand that no one has ever publicly passed in a double blind cable comparison. Hence, in their mind, every single wire vendor sells snake oil, and every audiophile company is more or less a joke. They don't care if it measures differently. In their mind, they are right and we are wrong. Because an amp makes a signal bigger and a preamp varies the level. In their view, only incompetent designs sound different. Hence, to them you (and I) are ONLY interested in money. They are convinced without any question in their mind. So are they right?

Back to the HDMI cables.

So we have a few possibilities:
1. I am inept.
2. I am unethical.
3. You have not heard what I heard and WW is right (as "verified" by myself and others).

You are in FL, WW is in FL. Go out and listen. Take your engineering hat off for a moment and sonically listen THEN call them "sickening". I would be delighted for show you what we hear. Send off your Mod if you are busy. Because option # 3 ^^ is the correct answer.

Let's meet-up at the Synergistic Research booth at CES. It will only take a 1/2 hour. I am guessing because you think they sell snake oil, you don't need to stop. But you will hear some rather odd things going on. For instance they will apply a field on their (overpriced) power cables and watch how it improves the sound. They can do it over and over for you. Then we can listen to those resonating jobbies as they place them in the room. And then remove them. One by one hear how it shifts the sound. We both can call it B.S. together as we look on in amazement. Because we both know if cannot possibly happen. I am not an SR dealer. I'd much rather advise my customers to buy better speakers, room treatments, etc.

Just realize that there are a lot of extremely smart folks (who also know better) and hear a differences. They are manufactures and designers in this audiophile community that do not make wires. So goes the age old debate goes on and the customer is sitting and trying to figure it out.

I never claim all amps sound the same even if they aren't clipping. I don't claim this for any electronics device.

Cables are another story. Power of suggestion dominates subjective bias. With HDMI, if you're not seeing a video problem, you're definitely NOT getting an audio problem. You're passing a bitstream. It will either pass with NO errors or it won't pass correctly. In that case you will see problems in the video like sparkling or get audio dropouts. There is NO WAY you can change the sound of an HDMI cable. With analog interconnects and speaker cables, it is POSSIBLE to affect the sound by using the cable as a glorified tone control. Spend some time reading our cable articles and you will find me often stating "only poorly designed cables are sonically distinguisable". This is not the case with HDMI however. Either it works or it doesn't, PERIOD!

BTW I would love to meet you at CES but I don't waste my time at that show anymore. I will be at CEDIA however.

I glossed over the stuff you said about Blind tests and agree with some of it. Just haven't had a chance to respond. I encourage you to read at least the first link on that topic which I have placed here again for your convenience.

The Insanity of Marketing Disguised as Loudspeaker Science | Audioholics

 

[gene]

I see what you are saying. I guess I get a little sensitive. When forum members start talking about audible memory, level matched, DBT protocol etc, it would be nice if they have tried it themselves. Same goes for people who assume that testing in the blind is easy. That could not be farther from the truth. But you are right PENG, I was a wee bit too sensitive. Sorry about that.

There are some inherent flaws with in testing in the blind and I will give you a quick overview. People blame the placebo effect when they hear something and it goes away in the blind. I propose no one can pass in the blind with fairly moderate differences that we all think is "obvious" unless they figure out away to remove their emotions and simply relax. That is extremely difficult and it takes a lot of practice. Allow me to expand... As I said before, there are days where your system sounds poor. The reason is all in your head. On those days, rest assured "all amps DO sound the same". I don't care if you use a tube amp versus a Krell. In the blind, you WILL fail using a DBT. I've experienced it many times on pairs that I passed on before.

Same drill on ABX testing. When you rapid fire back and forth comparing (what people tell you to do because of "audible memory"), you better figure out a way to not concentrate. When you do, I promise you can feel yourself guessing. I stop, try and relax, and continue. That's because the differences disappear and you just inaccurately concluded that there is no differences.

The biggest kiss of death in ABX testing is to go back and forth. When you do, I propose no human being can ever pass between two linear non-clipping amps. Better yet, I will take anybody up on that challenge. I will give 10:1 odds and I will give my guaranteed winnings to charity and you can pick the two amps or preamps to A-B. Common sense tells you to compare and listen for those difference back and forth. Again, you just made it nearly impossible to pass znd now are at a huge disadvantage. As you feel yourself guess (and you will know) the remaining stress will crush the real differences to zero.

The only way I can pass using the box is by never ever going back and forth to compare. I do everything in my power not to focus and that is really tough. Not to listen for those differences that you hear outside of the blind. I know... This seems incredibly illogical. So I say the perfect way to test in the blind is actually to have breaks. I would much rather have someone switch that HDMI cable every 20 seconds as we shoot the crap about life in between. Better yet, have 5 people listen all privately charting what they hear. Then we though out the outliers (the guy who tried to concentrate) and the majority rules. The pass rate is incredibly high using this approach. That is why I like listening in the blind with others. The difference are then "obvious".

So that is what I mean by DBT is flawed. I did dozens of other experiments as well. This is not to say that I always heard differences and I only failed because of the method. I too fail because of the placebo effect. Additionally, that doesn't mean that the differences are insignificant. Try a taste test between Diet Coke and Diet Pepsi. Pretty obvious which is which. But allow me to perform a DBT (I have done this). I tested about 15 people, no one could pass. I think this these are intertwined with DBT audio testing.

This is one of the first posts you've made on this thread that actually makes good sense

I agree with much of what you say.

When I do Blind testing, I prefer to spend a good amount of time between products before switching. Taking breaks is essential as you really do get listening fatigue, not b/c of loud listening but b/c you're brain just gets overloaded with stress when trying to discern differences. This is why I like to take days of testing and retesting before I make a decision.

You are right, to do a blind test takes enormous effort and most tests are done with many hidden biases and false conclusions.

I touch on this on an older Blind test I ran:
2010 Audioholics $1k Floorstanding Loudspeaker Faceoff | Audioholics

BTW, most people abuse the term DBT. If you are operating the test, controlling the switching and/or set the test up and know what products are being tested, this is NOT a DBT. It is a Blind test. What makes it worse is when a manufacturer uses their own staff in the test whom are intimately familiar with the sonic signature of their products. That introduces a huge source of error called Familiarity Bias.

I can point out a Klipsch speaker in any blind test b/c most of their products sound like a wall of sound, tons of bass and treble with recessed mids, same as I can spot an Axiom tower b/c they have no HPF on the mid and that poor mid just gets all muddled up at high listening level and you can hear a chestiness in their speakers that you don't hear in more tonally neutral speakers. Years ago Axiom flew me into their facility to run a blind test. I knew immediately when I was listening to the M60v3 vs their competitor despite it was a blind test.

I'm not faulting either of these brands, but I am showing that my experience allows me to discern a speaker even in a blind test b/c I'm very familiar with the sonic signature of their products.

You can probably do the same given all the years of listening to various products.

 

[AV_Nut]

I never claim all amps sound the same even if they aren't clipping. I don't claim this for any electronics device.

You misread my position. My point was people think you (and I) are inept or unethical because they technically know that there are no sonic differences. ANY reviewer can instantly change their mind by proving to the world they really do pass in the blind. But mysteriously, no reviewer wants to and I predict no one EVER will.

It can be said, you can simply submit a peer reviewed DBT procedure and have Arnie N or Tom N test you. Case closed. Instant credibility. Meanwhile, as a dealer, I have offered to show you my "magical powers". Yet you call out B.S. and say you are sickened. By default, I have to be wrong (and so are anybody who says otherwise). I suppose what does it really matter.... You will sell advertisements and I will sell audio gear and 28Gbps bandwidth HDMI cables. People will call us names as we both sleep soundly at night.

 

[gene]

You misread my position. My point was people think you (and I) are inept or unethical because they technically know that there are no sonic differences. ANY reviewer can instantly change their mind by proving to the world they really do pass in the blind. But mysteriously, no reviewer wants to and I predict no one EVER will.

It can be said, you can simply submit a peer reviewed DBT procedure and have Arnie N or Tom N test you. Case closed. Instant credibility. Meanwhile, as a dealer, I have offered to show you my "magical powers". Yet you call out B.S. and say you are sickened. By default, I have to be wrong (and so are anybody who says otherwise). I suppose what does it really matter.... You will sell advertisements and I will sell audio gear and 28Gbps bandwidth HDMI cables. People will call us names as we both sleep soundly at night.

Umm sorry but Tom N is not my litmus test for credibility.

I once went several months with little sleep b/c of stress. It's no fun let me tell you! Sleeping sound at night is a valued treasure and blessing that we all should have and maintain. On that I agree with you!

Not sure why you think I haven't participated in blind tests especially since we conduct our own. In fact, I conducted a blind test at my place to prove to a reviewer all amps DON'T sound the same even when not clipping. He passed and was able to discern the well behaved linear AB amp from the poorly designed Class D even at low, unclipped listening levels.

 

[AV_Nut]

Umm sorry but Tom N is not my litmus test for credibility.

I once went several months with little sleep b/c of stress. It's no fun let me tell you! Sleeping sound at night is a valued treasure and blessing that we all should have and maintain. On that I agree with you!

Not sure why you think I haven't participated in blind tests especially since we conduct our own. In fact, I conducted a blind test at my place to prove to a reviewer all amps DON'T sound the same even when not clipping. He passed and was able to discern the well behaved linear AB amp from the poorly designed Class D even at low, unclipped listening levels.

I have no doubt you test in the blind. I can pass therefore you can pass. Our ears work the same way. My broader point is the naysayers in the forums have traction because no one reviewer has the courage to try it in public. I really do think the word "courage" is applicable. If I was a successful reviewer, I am not saying I would. But it gets really old when I was on a forum (AVS to be exact) and others jump in to say how I don't know squat. Then another, and another. They quote their messiah (Tom N). Nothing has changed since the last time I posted around 2009.

I have met Tom and we had a long conversation on the topic. The fact that I have passed and know I can pass takes away his credibility. With my hour conversation with him at the Duluth Jazz festival, I concluded he simply regurgitates a few old stories. I am convinced I have done more work and research on the topic.

I was once listing to two amps in the blind and I felt myself guessing using my QSC box. I felt myself guessing. I took one of those 10 minute power naps and work up. I immediately tested myself again (with the music still playing) and rapidly zipped though 15 data points and they were correct.

 

[KurtBJC]

According to WW's designer, their patented "DNA Helix" makes their product much faster than others. Certainly their published specs are FAR better than any I have ever found. WW said, "no one is close". When I asked what I was hearing after the fact, they said more or less: "bandwidth, bandwidth, bandwidth". So if Blue Jeans spent R&D dollars and they had the technical know how, I would say they they could compete. But if I am a betting man, they are simply higher margin $3 HDMI cables marked up to $20. Believe what you want about the outcome. But they absolutely have incredible speeds. Far far and away faster than others. They have a white paper on the topic to back-up their claims. Truthfully, I never looked at the paper. I can attach it if someone can show me how (it is a PDF).

Well, thanks for being insulting. Actually, Blue Jeans Cable is the only brand in the world to use bonded pairs for high impedance stability and low skew -- that's technology you can measure, and we see it when we look at bonded pair Cat 6 and 6a data pairs as well as in the long certification lengths for our HDMI cables. Far from being a "$3 cable," our bulk HDMI cable is (I'm reasonably sure) the costliest HDMI cable stock in the world to manufacture as well as being the only stock that is US-made. Belden can't sell it to anyone else, because nobody wants the cost bite; we take the cost bite and still turn the cable around to the consumer much cheaper than boutique brands that don't have the technology, and that just rely on Chinese manufacture, do.

Now, I don't know how well the WW people have been able to control skew and impedance stability using this four-conductor design but I can tell you that such an approach is fraught with difficulties as it introduces new considerations into the already difficult problem of dimensional control. I can't find any published specs on their cable so I don't know what they claim; and I have found that it's chancy to rely upon people's published specs in the absence of test data to confirm. I can tell you, having been involved in some of these R&D projects (why do you assume we haven't? For crying out loud, a lot of R&D both on our part and Belden's went into bonded-pair HDMI.), that the translation of a theoretical spec to a working, manufactured cable that exhibits the specs projected for it is really tough. I would not want to have to do that with a Chinese wire factory. Every aspect of production becomes critical when you get up into the multi-Gigabit range.

Now, "speed." I have no idea what you mean. You don't want a foamed dielectric, which will increase propagation speed, because at these frequencies and in a paired-cable configuration the dimensional and foaming characteristics are really, really hard to control and you tend to get return loss spikes way up in the high frequencies. If what you mean is not propagation speed but data rate, the fact is that still today there is no specification for cable carrying data rates over 10.2 Gbps (three channels at 3.4 Gbps summed). The pass criteria change from Category 1 to Category 2 HDMI cable, and if higher data rates were to be tested there would likely be a Category 3 spec. This is a complicated issue, but the gist of it is that HDMI Licensing has set the 2.0 spec to employ Category 2 cable even at the higher data rates which exceed Category 2 testing, and they've created an S-parameter model they call the "Worst Cable Emulator" against which sources and sinks will be tested. The point is, at any rate, that there simply are no specs for higher data rates other than the Category 2 spec, and a Category 2 cable should pass all signals error-free under any existing HDMI spec version, including 2.0.

The result is of course that anybody can claim that he has a "28 Gbps HDMI cable." The term has no definition; nobody that has used that sort of term (and there have been several) has ever attempted, in my experience, to define what they mean by it; all cables will pass SOMETHING at 28 Gbps, and the only question is how well. To know how well is good enough, you've got to have a spec which integrates sources, sinks and cables. What I am quite sure of is that bonded pairs perform better than conventional pairs as we get up into the crazy-high bitrates. You can see it at 250 MHz (equivalent, in HDMI terms, to 500Mbps/pair, 1.5 Gbps total) on Cat 6 cable, well short of high-def HDMI frequencies.

All of this about "jitter": Well, jitter's a problem in digital signaling, for sure. In fact, when you go sticking extra conductors into the pair, you're liable to have considerably greater difficulty with intrapair skew, which really throws a wrench into the jitter problem because the two sides of the differential signal are arriving out of time; picoseconds matter here. But what must be understood about jitter is that it is a problem which arises BEFORE the receiving circuit, and if the receiving circuit is able to fully recover the data, it does not matter at all how good or how bad the jitter was. The bits come out the same, and it is indeed "all ones and zeros." Now, if you get bit errors due to jitter, of course, that's another story--you've got data loss, and as HDMI has no way of correcting the error that can easily be visible or audible.

Now, audio is not carried separately on HDMI cables, as many people think (except ARC audio, going back from a TV to a receiver). It's embedded in the video data stream. The result is that audio depends exactly, and only, on the same data stream upon which video depends. You can have a cable deliver perfect video, and if it does, it will deliver perfect audio. If a cable delivers bad video, it will deliver bad audio. The two ride together and the principles governing fidelity for the one are the same as for the other.

There's always going to be a lot of hucksterism where cable is concerned, and the dry and dull features of a well-engineered product are always going to sound less exciting than the extravagant claims associated with boutique products. To understand what's true, you've got to have a detailed appreciation of this stuff at the technical level.

Kurt
Blue Jeans Cable

 

[randyb]

Maybe not Tom N but how about the designer of the QSC comparator? What does he say?

 

[RichB]

The audible differences you are describing between HDMI vs COAX for LPCM have NOTHING to do with the cable.

I never thought it did, but I am willing to try the Silver cable anyway.

With most Blu-ray players I tested, I've been able to verify that the COAX output and HDMI LPCM output from a redbook CD have identical data. This is easily done on my APx585 HDMI Audio Analyzer. The “Bit Test” track on the AP CD can be used to confirm that all digital outputs are “bit-perfect”.

Good to know.

There is one important difference between COAX and HDMI though. For the COAX output, the audio clock is encoded into the S/PDIF data stream and extracted by the receiving device (standalone DAC or A/V receiver). For the HDMI output, the audio clock is not transmitted at all. Instead, the source (player) transmits two numbers (N and CTS) to let the receiving device know how to regenerate the audio clock from the video clock. The regenerated clock is usually not very high quality if the A/V receiver does not use fancy clock regeneration circuits. Jitter performance of the HDMI LPCM audio is usually not as good as the COAX output. This is a disadvantage of HDMI technology and its implementation on the receiver side especially for older equipment using HDMI 1.2 or lower. I don't believe its much of an issue on modern equipment these days but it's something worth testing on future reviews.

I don't hear this limitation you're describing on the Denon AVP but if you're claiming you hear it on the 8801 than its possible the 8801 clock circuit is the culprit.

Edit. I checked with a trusted source in the industry, Jason Liao of Oppo and here is what he has to say on this topic:
The clock regeneration issue is always the same for all version of HDMI. HDMI 1.3 adds an “Audio Rate Control” feature which allows the receiver to use an audio clock that is not synchronized with the video clock. This will result in the source and receiver running at slightly different clock speed, and buffer underrun or overrun can happen. Audio Rate Control deals with the buffer issue by using CEC to tell the source to speed up or slow down audio data rate. I am not sure how many AV receivers have implemented this feature.

Here is similar information from Jason in the response the a BDP-95 review:

Jason Liao: This is probably due to the technology limitation of HDMI. For uncompressed audio signals (LPCM and DSD), the HDMI technology does not carry the audio clock over the HDMI link. Instead, the audio clock is regenerated by the receiving device based on the sampling frequency. Depending on how good a clock generator the receiving devices uses, its jitter performance and frequency stability can affect the sound quality. For compressed sound (Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master etc), the decoding process usually takes care of the jitter issue by placing the decoded audio data into a buffer and then use a master clock to send the data to D/A; for uncompressed data, usually it is sent to D/A on the fly with the regenerated clock, so the sound quality can take a hit. The player’s internal DAC has jitter removal and can produce better sound.

The first analog player I experienced since the old days BDP-95. Had I not been beta testing, I do not think I would have bought one and would be using HDMI to this day.

I firmly believed that this was just digital data so there should be no discernible difference between the HDMI and analog outputs. That changed when I listened to the BDP-95. Then, I setup remote codes to switch inputs. The sound improvement was there with the Onkyo PR-SC5507 and the Marantz AV8801. The BDP-95 is not connected to a Yamaha Aventage A820 and the analog inputs sound better than the HDMI for LPCM.

- Rich