Class A/B vs Class D amp comparisons

[fuzz092888]

Many "high end" dealers will tell you that. I talked to a dealer a few times who admitted that anything below a certain price point, he wouldn't/couldn't carry because some of his customers wouldn't even consider it.

Silly rich people

I think we will have that tested soon. Emotiva had a price increase on the XPR-5.
It was on sale for around $1,800 (not sure though). The new price is 2,069.00.

It boasts more power than some of the Alternatives from Outlaw and ATI but not a lot more.
It is possible that some do not buy products for high-end systems when they are perceived as too inexpensive to be good.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well, price, weight, efficiency and therefore the dedicated circuits that would or wouldn't be needed could also be factors. Having an amp that can push 200WPC X 5 (1000W total) and only need to draw 1100 watts from the wall, is a pretty big deal when a class A/B would need to draw at least 1500W and require a bump up from a 15 amp dedicated to a 20 amp dedicated to get full power.

Yeah, sure, there are many "factors", but it always boils down to money, which is the number one factor. I doubt if efficiency and weight are number one. Otherwise, people would have bought mostly class D amps by now.

1) Money
2) Power Output
3) Aesthetic

A Rotel w/ 200x5 for $1K would be irresistible.

Most people would buy it, and hardly anyone would buy Emotiva IMO.

Money, money, money.

But I guess the question is, would they still make a profit, albeit smaller?

If the Crown XLS 1000 ($288, 215WPC/8 ohms) looked like the Rotel, it would be great. 6Ch x 215WPC = $864.
Money- Pass
Power- Pass
Aesthetic - Fail

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think we will have that tested soon. Emotiva had a price increase on the XPR-5.
It was on sale for around $1,800 (not sure though). The new price is 2,069.00.

It boasts more power than some of the Alternatives from Outlaw and ATI but not a lot more.
It is possible that some do not buy products for high-end systems when they are perceived as too inexpensive to be good.

- Rich

If people actually buy Emotiva at higher prices, I will just agree with you about everything for 1 month.

My prediction: no way in hell.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Many "high end" dealers will tell you that. I talked to a dealer a few times who admitted that anything below a certain price point, he wouldn't/couldn't carry because some of his customers wouldn't even consider it.

Silly rich people

I've heard these stories, but in forty years I've never actually run into it. My local dealers carry both very expensive and rather inexpensive equipment. I haven't even noticed that I'm treated all that differently when I'm shopping for expensive equipment versus cheaper stuff. One thing that has become more prevalent lately is active discounting by B&M dealers. Twenty years ago getting a price break was like pulling teeth. For the ID providers the price is generally the price, for the B&M guys it has become like buying a car.

IMO, most people into very high-end equipment won't consider electronics like Emotiva, ATI, Outlaw, etc, simply because they don't trust them to sound good. I have a couple of friends who are still surprised I gave up Levinson amps for an ATI to power Salon2s, even after they hear the results. My sense is that it's not a matter of price, it's a matter of perception. I find that the people who feel this way are non-technical about electronics. The air of mystery about how they work and what's important pushes them to pay a premium to stay in their comfort zone. They know a Krell or a McIntosh will sound good, because Stereophile and The Absolute Sound say they will.

 

[fuzz092888]

I would actually argue perceived SQ per dollar is the most important factor. People will pay more or slightly more if they perceive it to be a better "value" (value in the sense that it performs better and is therefore worth the extra money).

I'm not sure a $1000 200X5 class D from Rotel or anyone, with the right aesthetics, would cut it to overcome the stigma of class D amplifiers, or at least not totally. Some people would be intrigued and try it out, but I hardly think it would put a huge dent in Emo's sales without some reviews by well known sources and without quite a few people hearing it themselves.

At this point, consciously or subconsciously the consumers looking for HT amps want class A/B and that 's where the demand is, so that's where the supply is. You have to make one heck of a product and at an attractive price point to shift demand without it occurring naturally (the ipad comes to mind).

Yeah, sure, there are many "factors", but it always boils down to money, which is the number one factor. I doubt if efficiency and weight are number one. Otherwise, people would have bought mostly class D amps by now.

1) Money
2) Power Output
3) Aesthetic

A Rotel w/ 200x5 for $1K would be irresistible.

Most people would buy it, and hardly anyone would buy Emotiva IMO.

Money, money, money.

But I guess the question is, would they still make a profit, albeit smaller?

If the Crown XLS 1000 ($288, 215WPC/8 ohms) looked like the Rotel, it would be great. 6Ch x 215WPC = $864.
Money- Pass
Power- Pass
Aesthetic - Fail 

 

[fuzz092888]

I would say we're talking about the same thing. You're saying it's perception, I'm saying it's perception based on price. Reviews and reputation also come into play, but creating a budget minded lineup wouldn't exactly help their brand. They want to be seen as high end, so they're priced accordingly. Could they boost their bottom line, by adding more budget friendly items? Probably, but it might hurt the brand and their reputation as a high end company. Make a product that performs too well a a price point too low and people will question why the higher priced stuff is worth it and why they've been paying more all this time.

I know in the speaker arena Dennis had mused about this very issue (sort of). Pricing vs performance, if the slims performed too well and were priced too closely to the 3's, it could kill sales of the slims. Price them too far apart and have the performance too close and you might kill sales of the 3's. It's a balancing act and pricing can play a big part into how an item sells and to which crowd it will sell to.

I've heard these stories, but in forty years I've never actually run into it. My local dealers carry both very expensive and rather inexpensive equipment. I haven't even noticed that I'm treated all that differently when I'm shopping for expensive equipment versus cheaper stuff. One thing that has become more prevalent lately is active discounting by B&M dealers. Twenty years ago getting a price break was like pulling teeth. For the ID providers the price is generally the price, for the B&M guys it has become like buying a car.

IMO, most people into very high-end equipment won't consider electronics like Emotiva, ATI, Outlaw, etc, simply because they don't trust them to sound good. I have a couple of friends who are still surprised I gave up Levinson amps for an ATI to power Salon2s, even after they hear the results. My sense is that it's not a matter of price, it's a matter of perception. I find that the people who feel this way are non-technical about electronics. The air of mystery about how they work and what's important pushes them to pay a premium to stay in their comfort zone. They know a Krell or a McIntosh will sound good, because Stereophile and The Absolute Sound say they will.

 

[RichB]

Yeah, sure, there are many "factors", but it always boils down to money, which is the number one factor. I doubt if efficiency and weight are number one. Otherwise, people would have bought mostly class D amps by now.

1) Money
2) Power Output
3) Aesthetic

A Rotel w/ 200x5 for $1K would be irresistible.

Most people would buy it, and hardly anyone would buy Emotiva IMO.

Money, money, money.

But I guess the question is, would they still make a profit, albeit smaller?

If the Crown XLS 1000 ($288, 215WPC/8 ohms) looked like the Rotel, it would be great. 6Ch x 215WPC = $864.
Money- Pass
Power- Pass
Aesthetic - Fail 

I am not sure. I tried a D-Sonic 400 WPC ice amp and did not like it enough to keep.
AH found issues with the Pioneer ICE amps that have I guess have been addressed.
The AH Axiom review shows issues with bass performance which matches my experience.
After that, I will need some Stereophile, HomeTheaterHifi, and/or Audioholics reviews to put Class-D amps through their paces before I go there again.

IMO, most people into very high-end equipment won't consider electronics like Emotiva, ATI, Outlaw, etc, simply because they don't trust them to sound good. I have a couple of friends who are still surprised I gave up Levinson amps for an ATI to power Salon2s, even after they hear the results. My sense is that it's not a matter of price, it's a matter of perception. I find that the people who feel this way are non-technical about electronics. The air of mystery about how they work and what's important pushes them to pay a premium to stay in their comfort zone. They know a Krell or a McIntosh will sound good, because Stereophile and The Absolute Sound say they will.

I am on the fence about Emotiva. I have been on their forums and there is something about the culture of that company that has me worried.
I also have read reports about quality issues and I am not sure if they are up to the build quality and support you get from Outlaw/ATI/Parasound.
I am willing to pay for that.

Stereophile has done some good measurements in their reviews. They may cherry pick and get flowery.
Absolute Sound measures nothing so they are just snoot.
6Moons always finds the an improvement by adding an aftermarket power cable. They should be shunned

- Rich

 

[fuzz092888]

I am on the fence about Emotiva. I have been on their forums and there is something about the culture of that company that has me worried.
I also have read reports about quality issues and I am not sure if they are up to the build quality and support you get from Outlaw/ATI/Parasound.
I am willing to pay for that.
- Rich

I have similar reservations about Emo. Personally I'd rather buy used from companies that have rock solid reps than new from Emo.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I am on the fence about Emotiva. I have been on their forums and there is something about the culture of that company that has me worried.
I also have read reports about quality issues and I am not sure if they are up to the build quality and support you get from Outlaw/ATI/Parasound.
I am willing to pay for that.

I had some quality issues with an Emotiva CD player I had for a short time, but their latest amps, and this thread is about amps, look like different animals.

So far my experience with ID electronics has been admittedly tenuous. The Emotiva CD player looked a lot better on paper than it was in real life, at least ergonomically, and my Outlaw pre-pro has issues that IMO a B&M dealer network wouldn't tolerate, like the lame remote and output level limitations. If I was in the market the latest Emotiva mono blocks would tempt me, especially based on Gene's review, but I'd probably also be tempted to order a Crown XLS2500 just to try out a Class D design, and sell it if it didn't make me happy. I'd also like to try one of the Pass Labs balanced single-ended Class A designs, just so I could see if I could perceive a difference, but even used prices on those beasts are too high for my taste lately.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The Crown XLS2500 sounded superb to me - every bit as good as any Mark Levinson, Lexicon, Krell, McIntosh, Bryston, Classe amp I've heard.

The ONLY drawback (as with all the pro amps) is the ugly aesthetic IMO.

As far as name brand, Crown is Harman, so I would feel more comfortable buying a Crown than Emotiva, but that's just my provincial perception and it has nothing to do with SQ (as I think Emotiva sound as good as any amp I've ever heard).

 

[jinjuku]

I am not sure. I tried a D-Sonic 400 WPC ice amp and did not like it enough to keep.
AH found issues with the Pioneer ICE amps that have I guess have been addressed.
The AH Axiom review shows issues with bass performance which matches my experience.
After that, I will need some Stereophile, HomeTheaterHifi, and/or Audioholics reviews to put Class-D amps through their paces before I go there again.

Guitar Center: Local and super easy return policy. You have no excuses not to try a Crown/QSC/Crest/

I am on the fence about Emotiva. I have been on their forums and there is something about the culture of that company that has me worried

Can you put it into words? AFAICT Emotiva suffers from the same problem all the other boutique manufacturers suffer from: The inability to produce a modern HT Pre-Pro.

 

[PENG]

Well, price, weight, efficiency and therefore the dedicated circuits that would or wouldn't be needed could also be factors. Having an amp that can push 200WPC X 5 (1000W total) and only need to draw 1100 watts from the wall, is a pretty big deal when a class A/B would need to draw at least 1500W and require a bump up from a 15 amp dedicated to a 20 amp dedicated to get full power.

Good point, weight is definitely a factor for me, though not top on the list. It is not that I can't lift 90 lbs occasionally but I much prefer a 52 lbs Bryston, 60 lb Halo to a 73 lbs Emo when they all have the same transformer rating and about the same rated power. So in that case price need to do the offset, like ADTG was alluding to. Weight is on the class D side for sure.

 

[RichB]

Can you put it into words? AFAICT Emotiva suffers from the same problem all the other boutique manufacturers suffer from: The inability to produce a modern HT Pre-Pro.

I know the forums are not the greatest measure, but there have been a number of posts on AVS about their amps. There was some difficultly with the XPA-1L overheating. Reports of missing screws, and the like.
Just more than I hear from other brands.

I have been supportive of Emotiva but Dan responded to one of my posts rather negatively. I think he had me confused with someone else because the response did not match my quoted post.

BillMac (from AVS) has been banned from Emotiva's forums. He is a reasonable and rational voice over there.
I always find is posts thoughtful and well mannered.
I do not know the full history, but Emotiva seems to be thin-skinned.

I greatly admire that business that they have created and the level of drive and initiative to put out an interesting array of products. It is impressive.

I was one who was interested in the XMC-1 and put myself on the list. I love the feature set.
I hope they adopt the Gen 2 look as it already looks dated.

I have also had some email exchanges with Emotiva about some basic features that were lacking in the XMC-200 like Power on Volume and Max Volume. I detected zero interest but for no obvious technical or market reason.

I beta test for Oppo and it a completely different culture. They keep adding features to the BDP-103/105 that are directly related to suggestions from their customers and occasionally from their beta testers as well

- Rich

 

[jinjuku]

I know the forums are not the greatest measure, but there have been a number of posts on AVS about their amps. There was some difficultly with the XPA-1L overheating. Reports of missing screws, and the like.
Just more than I hear from other brands.

Other brands, Rotel / ATI / McIntosh / Adcom, don't have the public exposure that Emotiva has. I don't hear about those brands in general on various forums as much as I bump into an emotiva thread. The forums are internet based and so is Emotiva. Glove meet hand IMO.

I have been supportive of Emotiva but Dan responded to one of my posts rather negatively. I think he had me confused with someone else because the response did not match my quoted post.

BillMac (from AVS) has been banned from Emotiva's forums. He is a reasonable and rational voice over there.
I always find is posts thoughtful and well mannered.
I do not know the full history, but Emotiva seems to be thin-skinned.

Billmac posted 5 hours ago at the Emotiva forums...

I would have to see the thread(s) in question. I've been banned at one forum for basically being correct (retributive ban for making a bunch of people look bad publicly) and another for use of the term 'To pooh pooh' something....

I beta test for Oppo and it a completely different culture. They keep adding features to the BDP-103/105 that are directly related to suggestions from their customers and occasionally from their beta testers as well

- Rich

Oppo only makes one main market product: A DVD player in basically two variants. It's easier that way for sure.

 

[RichB]

Other brands, Rotel / ATI / McIntosh / Adcom, don't have the public exposure that Emotiva has. I don't hear about those brands in general on various forums as much as I bump into an emotiva thread. The forums are internet based and so is Emotiva. Glove meet hand IMO.

Perhaps, I think many have given up on defending themselves on AVS, which is understandable.

Billmac posted 5 hours ago at the Emotiva forums...

I fairly certain Bill got banned when he was pointing out the overly complicated UMC-200 firmware update process.
It is good to know that he is back.

Oppo only makes one main market product: A DVD player in basically two variants. It's easier that way for sure.

Actually, their BDP-105 is a BD player / streamer / USB DAC that some are using as a preamp as well. Very limited as a preamp but certainly good enough for someone who does not want room correction and has one or two inputs. That player also runs apps like Parandora, Netflix, Vudo, etc.

Frequent software updates are required to for BD support, network support and to refresh applications.
The products are not directly comparable but I think you underestimate the complexity of this product.

- Rich

 

[Irvrobinson]

Other brands, Rotel / ATI / McIntosh / Adcom, don't have the public exposure that Emotiva has. I don't hear about those brands in general on various forums as much as I bump into an emotiva thread. The forums are internet based and so is Emotiva. Glove meet hand IMO.

I'm not buying the internet-based argument. There are a gazillion Marantz/Denon/Onkyo, etc. threads too, and they aren't ID brands, though they can be bought ID. From my experience as a buyer, Emotiva and Outlaw have the reputations that they deserve. You're not going to see many threads on McIntosh because of 1st-rate and engineering, and dealers that hand-hold customers. I used to think McIntosh was mainly sold to old men living their old dreams once they could afford it, but I've run into some 30s-40s types buying McIntosh electronics. Two systems I've seen are owned by people getting back into vinyl. Very fashionable.

It might just be that great pre-pro design is just beyond the reach of small manufacturers.

 

[jinjuku]

I'm not buying the internet-based argument. There are a gazillion Marantz/Denon/Onkyo, etc. threads too, and they aren't ID brands, though they can be bought ID.

You are going to hear about them because they make AVR's. Kind of a requirement at a rudimentary level if you want an HT. What about HSU, Rythmik, SVS? I hear about these companies even more than Velodyne. ID based = a bigger presence in the audio enthusiast forums.

From my experience as a buyer, Emotiva and Outlaw have the reputations that they deserve.

I'll just ask: What would that reputation be? Far as I can tell Emotiva has a good rep. Outlaw audio also.

You're not going to see many threads on McIntosh because of 1st-rate and engineering, and dealers that hand-hold customers. I used to think McIntosh was mainly sold to old men living their old dreams once they could afford it, but I've run into some 30s-40s types buying McIntosh electronics. Two systems I've seen are owned by people getting back into vinyl. Very fashionable.

You aren't going to see as many threads averaged across multiple forums because Mc doesn't sell as much hardware as Emotiva or Outlaw. I'm not knocking Mc quality. Just the notion that outfits that have this pedigree name somehow have the market cornered on Engineering.

The Crown DC 300A that purchased in ~88 that was manufactured in ~1977 is still in use today.

It might just be that great pre-pro design is just beyond the reach of small manufacturers.

It certainly is. Hardware is a piece of cake compared to the software. It's darn hard to pull it off. Denon or Yamaha probably have software only engineering teams larger than the entire engineering bench at 99% (actually I will say all of the boutique and ID companies.

 

[jinjuku]

Actually, their BDP-105 is a BD player / streamer / USB DAC that some are using as a preamp as well. Very limited as a preamp but certainly good enough for someone who does not want room correction and has one or two inputs. That player also runs apps like Parandora, Netflix, Vudo, etc.

Frequent software updates are required to for BD support, network support and to refresh applications.
The products are not directly comparable but I think you underestimate the complexity of this product.

- Rich

I didn't say it wasn't a complex product. What I said is basically they're only product worth mentioning is a BR Player. When you only have one basket with one egg you have to do a good job. You can get sub $200 BR players that do 90% of what the Oppo does streaming and USB connectivity wise.

Trust me I know. My company only has one Primary Product. It's a tightrope to walk it.

 

[RichB]

Can you put it into words? AFAICT Emotiva suffers from the same problem all the other boutique manufacturers suffer from: The inability to produce a modern HT Pre-Pro.[/QUOTE]

I didn't say it wasn't a complex product. What I said is basically they're only product worth mentioning is a BR Player. When you only have one basket with one egg you have to do a good job. You can get sub $200 BR players that do 90% of what the Oppo does streaming and USB connectivity wise.

Trust me I know. My company only has one Primary Product. It's a tightrope to walk it.

Let's hope that Boutique manufacturers can make a modern HT Preamp.
Maybe the XMC-1 will be the first. However, even if they get the room correction right, they are nowhere near adding the video processing, network features, and app support of an BD Player.

I do not think they could possibly do it. I think it may be harder for an amp company to add Video/Network features that it may be for a BD company to add preamp features. Time will tell.

- Rich

 

[fuzz092888]

Outlaw has a good rep, amplifier wise, mostly on the back of ATI. Their two channel receiver is supposed to be awesome, and their newest processor is supposed to be excellent for what it is, but they really dropped the ball on the full fledged AVR they had been promising for years. Then there's their customer service, which can be spotty.

I know Emo has had similar issues with their processors in one regard or another and, while overall they appear to be good CS wise, they still have their horror stories.

Not that these situations are abnormal in the marketplace, no matter what the company.