First Official Denon AVR-X4000 Receiver Review is Live!

[agarwalro]

So i was playing around with the bi-amping feature on the x4000 today. I have a 2.0 setup right now ( Polk rti12s in full range ).

By bi-amping the speakers, are they:

1. Receiving twice the power? Is bi-amping within the same receiver considered additive? ( so, 125 watts @ 8 ohms to 250 watts @ 8 ohms )

2. OR does it effectively lower the wattage per binding post set ( Hi and low ) because it is coming from the same power source?

I just didnt know and was afraid to push the receiver further

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?5186-Passive-Bi-amping 1. Nope, see point #3 in linked post. 2. Nope, see point #2.

 

[PENG]

Passive Bi-amping 1. Nope, see point #3 in linked post. 2. Nope, see point #2.

I have given up on debating the technical merits of passive biamping and biwiring, and with this link (the first post by DonH50) I won't have to anyway as the guy summed it up quite well in a relatively short post, the best I have read on this topic. So the conclusion could be: most likely no audible benefits, but there are some technical advantages, theoretically speaking only. He mentioned the potential negatives too but that's mostly on the efficiency side of things.

The majority (i.e. not all) posts I found on the internet that tried to explain why there are not even any technical/electrical differences probably originated from a few posts by some self proclaimed experts who really did not have a good enough understanding of electrical circuit theories. Knowing there is no audible benefits but since I have the extra wires, I biwire one of my system just for that little theoretical benefits. That's no difference than why I tend to spend more (unnecessarily) on stuffs that offer lower THD,N,IMD, and trully differential schemes.

 

[skris88]

Bass issue

I've had an issue with Audyssey MultEQ XT for several years now, and the frequency response graphs from this AVR review prove it for me conclusively now - Audyssey leans towards too much bass.

My reference transducer are still my venerable Sennheiser HD-600 headphones, and - slightly warm as they are - indicate to me Audyssey subs are set some 5db too high, and I've been guiltily dropping same in the Speaker Levels setting after Calibration.

Now I need feel guilty no longer!

Apart from that you'd have to prise it out of my dead fingers before I'll go back to a system without Audyssey calibration now.

By the way, I've used my Audyssey AVR with a mix of different 2.1 (only) systems, from Wharfedale, no-name-brand and PSB subs, to Cambridge, Audioengine, Dayton (B625s!) and Magneplanar mains. Audyssey has helped tremendously.

Some tips:

• treat your room first, get some bass traps and remove those early reflections.
• try and place yourself and the speakers in the Golden Number 1.618 ratio potion for the lowest room nodes (approx 38% away from the front and back walls).
• set your sub(s) to register +5db on the speaker Levels setting, then drop them 5db.
• go to input settings and change your input levels by -10db on your CD/main non-DVD/BD digital input or DynamicEQ will boost the signals incorrectly when you play at lower volumes (many are actually even 15db too high - MP3 downloads are worst for that, but Audyssey can only reduce them by up to 10db max for now). Incorrect input levels are the main cause of "poor" Audyssey complaints. Read up about Replay Gain and digital music files here. All my music is Replay Gain calibrated to 85db and come off my NAS via a HDMI connection over MediaMonkey so I ensure Audyssey's DymanicEQ is always working on data with the the right input levels. Once you're used to this you'll know when to set the level for a YouTube clip at full, 50% or 10% (yes some are 90% too loud!)
• Or you could just turn Off DynamicEQ if you're still concerned about any input levels mismatch but you loose the key secondary benefit of Audyssey (the primary benefit being room/speaker tuning - not available with any other AVRs' so called system setup software).

Enjoy....

Cheers,
skris88

 

[sharkman]

I have noticed it appears that there is an uptick in failure rates or warranty issues for the current line of Denons, this model included. Looks like Denon's move to Chinese production wasn't without some less than desirable outcomes. On AVS forum the big Denon thread has increasing numbers of legitimate complaints and reports of failure. It's starting to look like an Onkyo thread.

 

[Marshall_Guthrie]

I have noticed it appears that there is an uptick in failure rates or warranty issues for the current line of Denons, this model included. Looks like Denon's move to Chinese production wasn't without some less than desirable outcomes. On AVS forum the big Denon thread has increasing numbers of legitimate complaints and reports of failure. It's starting to look like an Onkyo thread.

Could you link to examples or list some of those complaints? Right now, this AVR is sitting at the top of my "upgrade someday" list.

 

[sharkman]

Could you link to examples or list some of those complaints? Right now, this AVR is sitting at the top of my "upgrade someday" list.

On reading the thread linked here, or at least the last week of it perhaps I was too hasty in suggesting what I did. There are some incidents, like random shut downs or a bad internal connection causing distortion to a single speaker, but on the whole most of the concerns raised are to do with feature implementation or how to change an operation. It's on my short list too.

 

[Darkwing_duck]

I have given up on debating the technical merits of passive biamping and biwiring, and with this link (the first post by DonH50) I won't have to anyway as the guy summed it up quite well in a relatively short post, the best I have read on this topic. So the conclusion could be: most likely no audible benefits, but there are some technical advantages, theoretically speaking only. He mentioned the potential negatives too but that's mostly on the efficiency side of things.

The majority (i.e. not all) posts I found on the internet that tried to explain why there are not even any technical/electrical differences probably originated from a few posts by some self proclaimed experts who really did not have a good enough understanding of electrical circuit theories. Knowing there is no audible benefits but since I have the extra wires, I biwire one of my system just for that little theoretical benefits. That's no difference than why I tend to spend more (unnecessarily) on stuffs that offer lower THD,N,IMD, and trully differential schemes.

I wasnt looking for a debate or argument or even a discussion for that matter. I just didn't know even after my research ( Avs forums wasnt much help ) and wanted a straight up answer. I even emailed Denon suport and asked them and they claimed that it would be an enormous benefit that would be audible.

But, I really wanted to know if it had any positive effect on the wattage delivered....i will check out that link. Thanks man!

 

[Darkwing_duck]

Passive Bi-amping 1. Nope, see point #3 in linked post. 2. Nope, see point #2.

Wow...i just read the link....by far the BEST information about passive bi amping I found on the web. This should be stickied!

 

[Marshall_Guthrie]

On reading the thread linked here, or at least the last week of it perhaps I was too hasty in suggesting what I did. There are some incidents, like random shut downs or a bad internal connection causing distortion to a single speaker, but on the whole most of the concerns raised are to do with feature implementation or how to change an operation. It's on my short list too.

Thanks for the thread link. I'll take a look.

 

[shoek]

Hi... new here, hopefully not a newbie question. I'm considering this AVR for my entertainment room and wonder if it can handle my whole home audio needs as well. I have 2 other zones, and as I understand it the X4000 requires an external amp to handle zone 3. My question is about how this works specifically. If I get a Denon POA-3012ci, would I take the zone 3 pre-out from the X4000 into the bus-in of the 3012ci? Would this allow me to use all 12 speakers off of the 3012ci with the same source coming from the X4000?

Thanks in advance
-Steve

 

[adk highlander]

Yes that will work. Just remember you will need analog connections for the exta zones as you cannot use hdmi sources.

 

[agarwalro]

The X4000 can send HDMI audio to Zones. If playing the same source in multiple zones, one is restricted by the number of channels in the other zones. So if Zone 2 HDMI is going to a TV, Main Zone will be restricted to 2.0 as well. That said, with different sources playing in different zones, there is no restriction.

If the other zone has an AVR, the main zone can play a 7.1 DB while the other zone watches a cable show in 5.1.

 

[shoek]

I primarily want to use Airplay and Spotify in the 2/3 zone, just stereo. As I understand it, this will limit me to 5.1 in the main zone when Zone 2 or 3 is active at the same time, correct?

 

[agarwalro]

I primarily want to use Airplay and Spotify in the 2/3 zone, just stereo. As I understand it, this will limit me to 5.1 in the main zone when Zone 2 or 3 is active at the same time, correct?

That limitation pertains to the use of the AVR amplifiers and not to signal distribution/ pre-pro capabilities.

 

[agarwalro]

Here is the page in the manual that says HDMI In 1-6 can be routed to Zone 2 for video or audio.

 

[Darkwing_duck]

Passive Bi-amping 1. Nope, see point #3 in linked post. 2. Nope, see point #2.

Wouldnt bring this up again if I didnt have to but...

Ive found several instances of conflicting info about passive bi amping. Source? Several review completed by Gene and crew way back where they all reviewed certain receivers with passive bi amping capabilites AND even used it to conduct their 2 ch & 5 ch audit on the receivers performance. I dont have the links atm because I was just browsing by but I will find them and produce them together so everyone can see....Even the grand wizard of pursuing the truth in audio and video uses passive bi amping

I dont know why Gene or crew would consider using that feature if it didnt have any technical merit behind it. In fact, Gene raved about Denon being the first to use the feature. I know im turning this into a larger ordeal but there isnt just sufficient cut and dry material on this matter. I sent Gene a PM about this hoping he could make a primer/article on this matter and prove once and for all ( like with all other audio myths....ie speaker cables, hdmi cables, power cords, etc ) if passive bi amping is beneficial

Lets see what he decides to do. After all, his articles are essentially reference material and smacking proof that can put an end to even the most tenacious forum troll who claims he/she can hear a difference with his cryogencially treated speaker cable risers Haha

Man, i feel like i should explain how much money his articles have helped me save when purchasing all my gear and cables

 

[PENG]

Wouldnt bring this up again if I didnt have to but...

Ive found several instances of conflicting info about passive bi amping. Source? Several review completed by Gene and crew way back where they all reviewed certain receivers with passive bi amping capabilites AND even used it to conduct their 2 ch & 5 ch audit on the receivers performance. I dont have the links atm because I was just browsing by but I will find them and produce them together so everyone can see....Even the grand wizard of pursuing the truth in audio and video uses passive bi amping

I dont know why Gene or crew would consider using that feature if it didnt have any technical merit behind it. In fact, Gene raved about Denon being the first to use the feature. I know im turning this into a larger ordeal but there isnt just sufficient cut and dry material on this matter. I sent Gene a PM about this hoping he could make a primer/article on this matter and prove once and for all ( like with all other audio myths....ie speaker cables, hdmi cables, power cords, etc ) if passive bi amping is beneficial

Lets see what he decides to do. After all, his articles are essentially reference material and smacking proof that can put an end to even the most tenacious forum troll who claims he/she can hear a difference with his cryogencially treated speaker cable risers Haha

Man, i feel like i should explain how much money his articles have helped me save when purchasing all my gear and cables

And I would say that again, the technical differences (or one may even call those benefits) are mathematically provable facts. Sonic differences could be subjective, I would think but IMHO definitely not audible by human when compared to single amping with adequately sized wires and equivalent amp power, except for the golden ears/or maybe placebo proned ears. Gene would likely have different opinion but I am entitle to mine, except the technical part that is factual, i.e. not an opinion.

 

[agarwalro]

Wouldnt bring this up again if I didnt have to but...

Why not? That's what this forum's about .

Several review completed by Gene and crew way back where they all reviewed certain receivers with passive bi amping capabilites AND even used it to conduct their 2 ch & 5 ch audit on the receivers performance.

This doesn't particularly bother me. The website needs to cater to folks that believe in the merits of passive bi-amping too. The feature is there and it needed to be covered for those that care. I just skip over that kind of stuff.

Even the grand wizard of pursuing the truth in audio and video uses passive bi amping

I believe not since he acquired the Status 8T speakers.

I sent Gene a PM about this hoping he could make a primer/article on this matter and prove once and for all ( like with all other audio myths....ie speaker cables, hdmi cables, power cords, etc ) if passive bi amping is beneficial

A scientific approach based writeup would be excellent. Thanks for the request.

 

[Darkwing_duck]

I asked this in another thread but I'll ask here to since different users are subscribed to each.....


I'm currently on the fence between the Denon X4000 and the Denon 4520ci. I'm worried about quality control issues since my X4000 has a small very small bugaboo with its usb dongle which isn't perfectly aligned with the front plate.

I know the 4520 is more costlier but it's made in japan. What would I get from a receiver being made in Japan?

 

[agarwalro]

If you scroll down on the first post in this thread, you'll find a comparison of the X4000 and 4520,

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1465528/the-official-2013-denon-e-series-x-series-avr-model-owners-thread-faq