Emotiva UPA 200 or XPA 200 to drive Sierra Towers

[Goliath]

if you want to find some interesting reading google "avr gets hot" or "avr running hot", or "avr quit again" I can go on for ever, there are tons of threads with people dealing with all kinds of problems with avr's.. Which sucks, but they are a part of HT and you can not do much with out a processor or an avr, but with 2 ch music systems, you don't need it, so why burden yourself?

I've read plenty of those threads. It could be due to people abusing their amplifiers. It could also be due to people shorting out their amplifiers. Who actually knows. I can't say that all receivers run hot. I used to own an Onkyo SR-876 receiver which got very hot to the touch, but never shut down under any conditions that I threw at it. Then again, I don't listen at close to reference level. I've currently own a Denon X4000 which, while not cool to the touch, won't be able to fry eggs either, like my old Onkyo could. Then again I also live in a flat now, whereas before I lived in a house, which may have contributed to the additional heat from the Onkyo, given the average level in the house was louder than it is now.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

My brother has 500 SF living room, 15ft ceiling. He has five NHT SuperZero + one SW2P sub and power by a HK 50WPC 5.1 AVR. Loud volume like I am used to. Never clips. Never goes into protection mode. 50 watts per channel.

Perhaps if I could see an AVR actually go into protection mode, I may change my tune.

 

[j_garcia]

If you clipped your receiver, as in actually clipped it into gross distortion, then your conditions are most likely atypical - not representative of how most reasonable people use their systems. How much power is "enough" is really dependent on listening habits, for the most part, and since everyone has different listening habits everyone's power requirements will be different, even if every person had the same system!

People also tend to use things like bass management and subwoofers which would significantly reduce the power requirements in their system, so the idea that one needs 200-250 watts in their systems is just absurd. That may apply to one or two people, in certain conditions, but I would argue those conditions are atypical and not reflective of how most people use their systems.

I agree with this, but I am also more like ImcLoud in my system usage. I like it less complicated and geared toward performance not features. While I don't listen at the limit of the system all the time, I want those limits to be tolerated without question when I DO crank the heck out of it.

I agree too that listening to a bunch of amps doesn't tell you specifics about what they are doing, but it DOES tell you whether or not it has the cojones to deliver proper sound levels and that is ultimately the point of an amp IMO. "Getting the speakers to open up" is not

 

[Goliath]

I know it sounds rude, but I find it very difficult to believe people who routinely clip their amplifiers especially those who use bass management and subwoofers. There are so many things that could appear to be clipping but unrelated - it could have been the program material, or something distorting in the living room space, or distortion in the ear itself.

I know people who have told me that their amplifiers were too weak after comparing them to other receivers only to find out that the trim levels on one receiver was set close to zero. Who actually knows exactly what is going on when people use their systems.

 

[Goliath]

I agree too that listening to a bunch of amps doesn't tell you specifics about what they are doing, but it DOES tell you whether or not it has the cojones to deliver proper sound levels and that is ultimately the point of an amp IMO. "Getting the speakers to open up" is not

Sure, but what if the levels aren't matched? If you don't account for that, then a louder gain will sound louder and you may not perceive a louder sound as just that - given the equal loudness curves and our sensitivity to loudness across the frequency range it may be that the sound takes on a punchy, more dynamic, powerful presentation. Bass sounds fuller, has more impact etc. All this from mismatched levels.

This is why people recommend that you level-match amplifiers at the speaker terminals to ensure an apples to apples comparison. I realise most people don't have the equipment or the inclination to do this, but if you want fairness, then that's really what is required, in my opinion.

 

[RichB]

I agree with this, but I am also more like ImcLoud in my system usage. I like it less complicated and geared toward performance not features. While I don't listen at the limit of the system all the time, I want those limits to be tolerated without question when I DO crank the heck out of it.

I agree too that listening to a bunch of amps doesn't tell you specifics about what they are doing, but it DOES tell you whether or not it has the cojones to deliver proper sound levels and that is ultimately the point of an amp IMO. "Getting the speakers to open up" is not

I have had a number of amplifiers and I never felt the problem was clipping.
Although, there are tracks that I could sound harsh when cranked using the Sunfire 7400 (400 WPC).
Neither the ATI3000 nor with the Parasound A51 ever sound like that.

I would not look for an amp that Opens up the sound, but I would like one that delivers to current to avoid compression.
I am running the Salons full range in a 2-channel system so it is more demanding than using cross-over and sub(s).

By the time you hear an amplifier clip, it has been compressing; not providing the power to properly deliver the power to the speakers.

I listened to my Friends Pioneer SC-07 ICE amp (140 WPC) and we upgraded him to a BDP-105 using two Outlaw M2200 mono-blocks and there was no comparison. The M2200 was much more dynamic.
In this case, that is the design. Soft-clipping means, never mind, I think I'll skip that note.

No Audyssey, but this is a killer system.

- Rich

 

[ImcLoud]

My brother has 500 SF living room, 15ft ceiling. He has five NHT SuperZero + one SW2P sub and power by a HK 50WPC 5.1 AVR. Loud volume like I am used to. Never clips. Never goes into protection mode. 50 watts per channel.

Perhaps if I could see an AVR actually go into protection mode, I may change my tune.

Now I see the problem, what you think is loud is different than what I think is loud...
Since 1 nht running with 50watts going to it and a listening position 15 feet away {easy in a 500sq ft living room} , will only give you 87db {with 3 db headroom}, thats if he had it turned all the way up with all the trims all the way up and the avr was actually pushing a real 50w... I watch Ellen at 90db, lol, never mind music in the big room....

The other issue is I don't know if you ever ran an avr at full tilt, but they sound terrible, I don't care what anyone says, get a 20w amp and run it full volume through a speaker and it sounds like sh!t, then get a 100watt amp and run it to that same db level and it will sound fine... I don't know why, and I don't really care why, its just a fact... You want proof get a lepai 2020 and run it full blast through a pair of polk bookshelfs you get around 85db on the spl meter and it doesn't sound great, next plug it into an r700 and play it at 85db, sounds great....

Headroom makes a difference, in component life, sound quality, and sound level, if not why don't a;; avr's just come through with 50watts....

And Im not sure if I read the posts rite, but if anyone thinks more watts don't make a difference, they are nuts, then why don't we all have 50x5 avr's? I know why, because they are not loud enough... its simple rocket surgery, more watts means a bigger smile a bigger smile means more happy guy holding the remote...
here is the math if you are interested..

(2X50w=)<(2X100w=)<(2X200w=)<(2x400w=)<(2X1000w=) see its, easy when you draw it out as a math problem...

heres the math for acu's brothers room 500 square ' X 87db X 5 square route of 50w =

 

[Goliath]

The other issue is I don't know if you ever ran an avr at full tilt, but they sound terrible, I don't care what anyone says, get a 20w amp and run it full volume through a speaker and it sounds like sh!t, then get a 100watt amp and run it to that same db level and it will sound fine... I don't know why, and I don't really care why, its just a fact... You want proof get a lepai 2020 and run it full blast through a pair of polk bookshelfs you get around 85db on the spl meter and it doesn't sound great, next plug it into an r700 and play it at 85db, sounds great....

I don't think anyone is disputing that clean power is preferable over distorted power. But there is a limit to how much clean power you need before it turns into a redundant numbers game.

Headroom makes a difference, in component life, sound quality, and sound level, if not why don't a;; avr's just come through with 50watts....

Headroom can make a difference assuming you push a system beyond the norm. Or it could be redundant, if you never need to use the additional headroom. All depends on how the system is used.

And Im not sure if I read the posts rite, but if anyone thinks more watts don't make a difference, they are nuts, then why don't we all have 50x5 avr's?

More power can be beneficial if you need it. But throwing watts around won't necessarily do anything unless the speakers actually draw more power. Moving from one receiver to another, or one power amp to another could result in the very same voltage swings - ie speakers don't necessarily draw any more power from the amplifier.

If you only need 50 watts to handle the SPL in your room then you only need 50 watts - adding 500 watts is not going to do *anything* but increase headroom, which would be useless, since you would never be in a position to use it.

 

[RichB]

Wilejoe,

Here is another option:

BDP-105 used as a BD Player, HDMI input, network playback, USB DAC.
Use it as a preamp connected directly to an amp of your choosing.

The downside: No room correction, no volume knob, You must be careful on firmware upgrades because the volume resets to 100%.

Depending on the amp, there is little risk since everything is returnable.

- Rich

 

[ImcLoud]

I don't think anyone is disputing that clean power is preferable over distorted power. But there is a limit to how much clean power you need before it turns into a redundant numbers game.



Headroom can make a difference assuming you push a system beyond the norm. Or it could be redundant, if you never need to use the additional headroom. All depends on how the system is used.



More power can be beneficial if you need it. But throwing watts around won't necessarily do anything unless the speakers actually draw more power. Moving from one receiver to another, or one power amp to another could result in the very same voltage swings - ie speakers don't necessarily draw any more power from the amplifier.

If you only need 50 watts to handle the SPL in your room then you only need 50 watts - adding 500 watts is not going to do *anything* but increase headroom, which would be useless, since you would never be in a position to use it.

So what is that limit? for surround sound, I think 200x3 for the fronts and 80x2 for the rears and you will never need more unless the room is huge and loud.... I can tell you with the fireplace going in my house and the kids running around an avr was always 85% volume just to watch tv...
For music the sky is the limit, but I can get by with 200wx2 as long as I have subs with it... my 2.2 system with the towers is 300x2 and two 300 watt subs so 1200 watts, and I play it loud, I would say if the volume is in percent I am at 70 for normal listening and have turned it to 85% to show off the output... my 2.2 with the bookshelfs is 200x2 for the mains and 400x2 for the subs, in a smaller room, and I also push that to around 80% once and a while... so 100x2 would not do it for me...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Now I see the problem, what you think is loud is different than what I think is loud... I watch Ellen at 90db...

Okay, I thought I made it clear that the TOTAL SPL max I listen to is 108dB.

You don't consider 108dB loud?

The 87dB is only when I turn the Subs off just to measure the speakers alone w/o the subs. But I listen with the seven subs 100% of the time.

How loud do you listen to music? Louder than 108dB?

BTW, I gave my brother the little NHT/HK system. I had it in my 18' x 20' family room years ago.

They can play to loud enough in his 500SF room to cause your ears to go into protection mode.

As many systems as I've had over the years, it's funny I have NEVER EVER had anything go into protection mode or "clip" or sound bad because I was using just an AVR.

I have also used the Denon 3312 to drive the B&W 802D2 & Phil3, which are supposed to be difficult loads.

I have used the 60WPC ATI amp to drive my Salon2.

If I had experienced even one protecting mode or clipping, I would be singing that tune by now.

 

[ImcLoud]

That is weird that you never clipped an amp 108db, because I can put Roger waters amused to death on my HT system and switch to the upa200 and clip with my front left and right 340se's... Im not sure how many db since I don't make a habit out of it, but the amp will clip when I get around 75..

And I listen at 108.1 db for your information, lol...

 

[RichB]

^^^

It won't take long before you'll need 108 DB to hear it

I do not ink it is possible that a 60 watt amp was not compressing or altering the sound driving the Salon 2s.

Protection mode and distortion are easier to detect than the sound that was not produced.

- Rich

 

[Goliath]

That is weird that you never clipped an amp 108db, because I can put Roger waters amused to death on my HT system and switch to the upa200 and clip with my front left and right 340se's... Im not sure how many db since I don't make a habit out of it, but the amp will clip when I get around 75..

I think you have misunderstood. His speakers have reached a peak SPL of 87 dB, so his amplifiers are probably only delivering a handful of watts. His subwoofers are providing the rest of the juice, as it were. An extra 20 dB louder, so he probably likes his bass a tad bit hot. His main amplifiers aren't contributing in this case.

 

[Goliath]

[QUOTE="RichB]I do not ink it is possible that a 60 watt amp was not compressing or altering the sound driving the Salon 2s.[/QUOTE]

If the speakers were high-passed at some frequency and a subwoofer was used then I can believe it. Bass management FTW! However if the speakers were run full-range, listening to "Bass I love you", at high SPL levels, then I can imagine that 60 watts probably wouldn't be ideal to handle the content cleanly.

 

[Steve81]

Is there a difference in quality of those two amps or are you just getting an extra 25w !50w compared to 125w.

To nudge things back on track a bit...

In terms of basic audio quality, probably not. However, in addition to the marginal bump in output, the XPA-200 does feature a few minor perks over the UPA-200: better binding posts & RCA jacks, balanced inputs, and passive cooling versus the pair of fans in the UPA.

 

[RichB]

If the speakers were high-passed at some frequency and a subwoofer was used then I can believe it. Bass management FTW! However if the speakers were run full-range, listening to "Bass I love you", at high SPL levels, then I can imagine that 60 watts probably wouldn't be ideal to handle the content cleanly.

When I had the ATI3000 driving my Salons (full range and no sub), I lit up the clipping indicators on some of the Piano solos.
This is not something, that would normally involve the sub. I was surprised by that.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That is weird that you never clipped an amp 108db, because I can put Roger waters amused to death on my HT system and switch to the upa200 and clip with my front left and right 340se's... Im not sure how many db since I don't make a habit out of it, but the amp will clip when I get around 75..

And I listen at 108.1 db for your information, lol...

That does it. I'm cranking it up to 108.15dB when I get home.

But seriously though, I think my point (reading my own mind) is that if the amp/AVR are driving the speakers to the tune of 108dB, they may clip.

But because the subs are doing all the heavy lifting (I did not do any experiment to see how loud the subs are playing w/o the speakers), the amp/AVR are not driving the speakers to 108dB.

The Amp/AVR are driving the speakers to only to 87dB, even though the TOTAL VOLUME is 108dB.

Does that make sense?

Total volume (speakers + subs) = 108dB
Speaker Only Volume = 87dB

So while I listen to an ACTUAL MEASURED VOLUME 108dB, the amp/AVR is not driving this total 108dB; it is driving < 87dB (2 speakers, room gain).

I know that I can tolerate BASS volume more than midrange and treble volume. So there is no way I can tolerate the volume of 108dB from just midrange and treble.

So just as an estimation, I would say that I can tolerate a midrange/treble max volume of 92dB. Beyond that would have to be bass volume up to a total of 108dB.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think you have misunderstood. His speakers have reached a peak SPL of 87 dB, so his amplifiers are probably only delivering a handful of watts. His subwoofers are providing the rest of the juice, as it were. An extra 20 dB louder, so he probably likes his bass a tad bit hot. His main amplifiers aren't contributing in this case.

Well, and I was listening to bass-heavy music like Lindsey Stirling and some other bass-test music.

But overall, I can tolerate louder bass frequencies, but I cannot tolerate louder midrange/treble frequencies.

And I did one of those online hearing test that had test tones from 10Hz to 22kHz. And I passed!

I could actually hear the high frequencies up to 22kHz. I also heard the 10Hz tones, but maybe it was my walls or something else vibrating.

But I actually heard those 22kHz high pitch noise.

A long time ago I did the same thing, but it was on a laptop, which was probably limited in dynamic range. That's why I couldn't hear anything above 16kHz back then. It was the damn laptop.

This time I did it on my KEF 201/2 + Funk 18.0 subs.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

When I had the ATI3000 driving my Salons (full range and no sub), I lit up the clipping indicators on some of the Piano solos.
This is not something, that would normally involve the sub. I was surprised by that.

- Rich

I used my AT6012 (60WPC) amp with the Salon2 in 2.0 Pure Direct mode (no Sub/LFE) to a max volume of 94dB without any clipping or audible distortion.

Home Theater Magazine used an ATI 150 WPC amp to drive the entire Ultima2 system (Salon2, Voice2, Gem2) without any kind of problem.

So I don't see how an ATI 300 WPC amp could have issue unless there was something wrong somewhere. But my perspective is based on my own experience as well as others (Home Theater Magazine, other forum members).