Too much treble - Help! I'm over my head

[DannyA]

I really need some help. I am very overwhelmed and have many questions but I'll post one at a time. I'm trying to get my music to sound better and louder. I'm not too concerned about movies or TV. The problem is I have the treble turned all the way down and it is still ahs way too much treble. I would also like more volume. My receiver sounds really good until I hit -14db. At that point I start getting some distortion. The receiver actually shuts down when the volume is just pass half.
Here is my setup:

Receiver: Yamaha RX-V3800 - 140w per channel
Front x2: Definitive Technology BP7006 - 250w, 8ohm
Center (Sub crossover is connected to internal powered sub): Definitive Technology CS-8060HD - 250w, 8ohm
Surround x2: Definitive Technology Pro Monitor 1000 - 200w, 8ohm
Samsung DVD Player (connected through HDMI)
USB Drive (connected directly to receiver)

What I have tried:
1. I have moved the speakers around the room a million different ways.
2. I change the impedance to 8ohms on the receiver (definitive support tech recommended).
3. Replaced 16 gauge cable with 14 gauge and gold banana connectors.
4. Tried all presets. 7ch stereo, 7ch enhanced, etc.
5. Bypassed CD player by playing MP3s directly from USB through receiver.

Questions:
1. Do I simply have the wrong receiver for these speakers?
2. If the receiver is fine, is there a setting on the receiver I'm not aware of the would resolve the issue?
3. Would an Amplifier help with the treble issue in addition to adding more volume?

Thank you for any help!

DannyA

 

[slipperybidness]

I really need some help. I am very overwhelmed and have many questions but I'll post one at a time. I'm trying to get my music to sound better and louder. I'm not too concerned about movies or TV. The problem is I have the treble turned all the way down and it is still ahs way too much treble. I would also like more volume. My receiver sounds really good until I hit -14db. At that point I start getting some distortion. The receiver actually shuts down when the volume is just pass half.
Here is my setup:

Receiver: Yamaha RX-V3800 - 140w per channel
Front x2: Definitive Technology BP7006 - 250w, 8ohm
Center (Sub crossover is connected to internal powered sub): Definitive Technology CS-8060HD - 250w, 8ohm
Surround x2: Definitive Technology Pro Monitor 1000 - 200w, 8ohm
Samsung DVD Player (connected through HDMI)
USB Drive (connected directly to receiver)

What I have tried:
1. I have moved the speakers around the room a million different ways.
2. I change the impedance to 8ohms on the receiver (definitive support tech recommended).
3. Replaced 16 gauge cable with 14 gauge and gold banana connectors.
4. Tried all presets. 7ch stereo, 7ch enhanced, etc.
5. Bypassed CD player by playing MP3s directly from USB through receiver.

Questions:
1. Do I simply have the wrong receiver for these speakers?
2. If the receiver is fine, is there a setting on the receiver I'm not aware of the would resolve the issue?
3. Would an Amplifier help with the treble issue in addition to adding more volume?

Thank you for any help!

DannyA

That receiver shouldn't really have a problem with your DTs. One item, you are saying that you have the sub out (LFE) from the Yammy going to the center speaker? That is kind of odd.

Did you plug in the 7006 towers into the wall power (and the center too for that matter)? Those have built in amps for the built in subs.

In all honesty, it sounds to me like you might have some DSP mode activated (those are usually garbage). Can you put the Yammy in direct or pure direct mode?

I'm really suspecting that you have a setup or config problem and not a hardware problem, so that is mostly good news. Did you buy the Yammy new? Did you run through the setup/config menus on the Yammy?

 

[DannyA]

That receiver shouldn't really have a problem with your DTs. One item, you are saying that you have the sub out (LFE) from the Yammy going to the center speaker? That is kind of odd.
The Center has a sub crossover input for the powered sub.

Did you plug in the 7006 towers into the wall power (and the center too for that matter)? Those have built in amps for the built in subs.
The 7006s are plugged in. I have messed with the sub volume but I feel like I'm trying to over compensate a bit with the bas there.

In all honesty, it sounds to me like you might have some DSP mode activated (those are usually garbage). Can you put the Yammy in direct or pure direct mode?
I'm not sure. Being a newbie I need to try and navigate the manual and see what those settings are. Now that I know what to look for I can focus on that.

I'm really suspecting that you have a setup or config problem and not a hardware problem, so that is mostly good news. Did you buy the Yammy new? Did you run through the setup/config menus on the Yammy?

I did buy the unit brand new. It has been a few years so I can't really remember how I set it up initially.

 

[markw]

Honsetly, it sounds like you've got something or so,me things hooked up drastically wrong. What, I don't know.

Grab the owners manuals for the speakers and the receiver and start again at ground zero.

 

[Ponzio]

Call Yamaha tech support [(714) 522-9105 Select Option 5 (Open 24 hours-a-day)] and ask for the default reset procedure for the 3800. I own 3 different Yamaha RX-V AVR's (4600, 2700, 2600) and never had a problem. Something/someone has obviously screwed the pooch somewhere and you're best bet is to start from scratch with a factory reset. Good luck.

 

[Ponzio]

Silly question. What happens when you use 'Pure Direct' or 'Straight' analog mode?

 

[j_garcia]

Treble doesn't just show up, so I'd also have to say something is configured wrong.

 

[DannyA]

I spent a few hours last night going through all of the different options including Pure Direct and Straight analog mode. I even re-ran YPAO auto setup several times. Two problems with Pure Direct mode. First you can't adjust treble and bass. Second it only outputs to the front L/R speakers. No center or surround. Straight analog only outputs to the front L/R as well. I did make a small improvement but I had to adjust the settings for each speaker separately. I also was able to make adjustments to the treble and bass range however it only made a small difference. Treble is still turn all the way down and it still has too much high end. To be clear the sound is very clear, crisp. The bass sounds good as well. I simply cannot tone down the treble. I triple checked my cables, connectors and polarity. All is good there. I am going take "ponzio's" advice and call Yamaha. I'll re-set to default and start over. I'll post my results.

 

[jcl]

I read the manual for your center speaker and found the following, which I agree seems counter intuitive, why put an input if you're not supposed to use it?

Your CS Speaker contains a built-in, powered woofer designed to extend the
frequency response and dynamic range of the center channel. Do not connect
the Low Level input to your receiver’s LFE output. The CS speakers are not
designed to be a dedicated subwoofer.

I'm only guessing that part of the problem is that your setup might be such that it thinks there is an external sub, and it's sending that signal to lfe input of the center. I would suggest making sure that your front three are being run full range, and disconnecting the lfe from the center.

I don't think that's going to fix your issue, but hopefully it will help.

 

[DannyA]

You are correct. I failed to mention that I disconnected the sub input from the center. It made no difference.

 

[j_garcia]

The point of Pure Direct is that it does not allow any processing or tone controls, thus the "Pure". If you configure LFE for "both" I believe you will still get the sub in the mix even in Pure Direct, but don't quote me on that. In order to get the other speakers working in this mode, you would need an analog source with mutiple channels connected (7.1ch input), playing multichannel audio since it only recognizes the channels that are present. So if playing a stereo track you will only get output from the main channels in this mode.

Could also be that these are simply not the right speakers for you, but the amount of treble you describe seems excessive for any speaker. Just curious how you have the mains connected? I presume they are bi-wirable - do you have the original jumpers in place and if not, which set of binding posts are you connecting to?

*Edit - all the images I am finding only show a single input on the built in amp, is there another input?

 

[slipperybidness]

I think there is still some missing info to this puzzle.

Is this equipment new, just setting it up? Did it work correctly before and now it doesn't.

OP tried to squeeze a bunch of questions in first post, but didn't give a bunch of details really.

 

[Ponzio]

Pure Direct on the Yamaha's is just that; L-R fronts only. Straight analog on the other hand will add the sub; think of it as Pure Direct with a sub.

I don't think their bi-wirable, from the pic's I saw on Google images but I did notice some sort of volume/level (?) control on each speaker (BP7006 fronts). My money is on one or two of those Def Tech's having a problem (short/open) with their internal control/cross-over's. Why else would it trip the Yamaha at -14dB? A reset will reveal a lot and help in troubleshooting & resolving his issue.

 

[DannyA]

Problem solved! After working with Yamaha and DT tech support we identified the problem. The mid-range speakers in my BP7006s are blown. They still produce sound but the coils are shot. They are sending free replacements. That caused both problems. The treble and shutting down. Now here is WHY it happened.
The RX-V3800 specs indicate 140w per channel however the actual "true" output is considerably less (maybe 60 - 80) when running across all speakers. This means I have to turn the volume up higher to get the loudness I desire. When I turned up the volume to get the loudness I was actually producing much higher distortion as well. The distortion is what damaged the speakers. It was my fault. I didn't understand how the volume adjustment works. The receiver's lowest volume starts at -75.0db and is near the saturation point at 0.0db. In the old days I could turn the volume to full or almost full on most stereos (yeah. stereo. I'm that old). I just didn't understand I could not do that on the system. I also realized I probably could have chosen a better receiver match for my speakers.

I have more questions now but I'll save those for a new post.

Thank you all very much for your help!

 

[tracieisz]

I think are some of their best features.

 

[Ponzio]

Problem solved! After working with Yamaha and DT tech support we identified the problem. The mid-range speakers in my BP7006s are blown. They still produce sound but the coils are shot. They are sending free replacements. That caused both problems. The treble and shutting down. Now here is WHY it happened.
The RX-V3800 specs indicate 140w per channel however the actual "true" output is considerably less (maybe 60 - 80) when running across all speakers. This means I have to turn the volume up higher to get the loudness I desire. When I turned up the volume to get the loudness I was actually producing much higher distortion as well. The distortion is what damaged the speakers. It was my fault. I didn't understand how the volume adjustment works. The receiver's lowest volume starts at -75.0db and is near the saturation point at 0.0db. In the old days I could turn the volume to full or almost full on most stereos (yeah. stereo. I'm that old). I just didn't understand I could not do that on the system. I also realized I probably could have chosen a better receiver match for my speakers.

Danny, why is the Yamaha RX-V3800 to blame if the Def Tech's BP7006 supposedly can handle 250WPC at 8ohm?

 

[markw]

Danny, why is the Yamaha RX-V3800 to blame if the Def Tech's BP7006 supposedly can handle 250WPC at 8ohm?

This is a very good question.

Here's a copy of your owners manual. That's quite a powerhouse. If, I assume, you say you were overdriving the bejeezus out of that amp, how loud were you playiing it?

 

[Ponzio]

Why do I feel that Def Tech is doing some tap dancing here? Why else would they replace the mid's gratis? Because they're a bunch of swell guys?

 

[Ponzio]

If, I assume, you say you were overdriving the bejeezus out of that amp, how loud were you playiing it?

He stated that they would fizzle out at -14dB, which on that model is not extremely loud by any stretch. While not quiet, it's no where close to the -8dB I drive my KEF LS50's (Amplifier requirements: 25 - 100 W) on my RX-V2700, the previous similar series model, also rated at 140WPC, on a daily basis.

 

[markw]

In any case, if it was determined that the amp'sdistorting was blosing the speakers, it had to be driven fairly hard. Either that, or the amp malfunctioned drasticaly and silently enough to take out two midrange spekaers (not tweeters?) with no warning at all, which is highly unusual.