Receiver trips with 18 speaker setup... need equipment advice

[tmman]

Hi All,

Let me start by saying I am fairly new to the world of audio equipment. I am attempting to replace some equipment in a restaurant and need a little advice. The restaurant was wired years ago in the following manner:

Current setup:
-6 speakers split into one channel (up in the attic somewhere)
-2 speakers on a channel
-2 speakers on a channel
-2 speakers on a channel
-2 speakers on a channel
-4 speakers split into one channel (up in the attic somewhere)
-Sony STR-DH740 Receiver
-6 channel impedance matching speaker selector with volume control (channel A connecting to receiver)
-Grace Digital Audio player (digital optical cable connecting to receiver)

I realize this is probably not a good or ideal setup, save the lecturing! My belief is that the current receiver is being pushed awfully hard and because of such it intermittently switches into "Protector" mode and turns off.

Using the current wiring setup, what is the best manner to make sure the speakers are receiving enough power to hopefully not trip the receiver? Should I look for a larger/more powerful receiver? Do I need some other piece of equipment to help power all of these?

Again, I want to keep this as simple as possible and hopefully receive some advice from professionals here on what receiver/amp I should be using.

Any help is greatly appreciated!!

Best!

 

[markw]

Seriously, you've got all those speakers being driven by that one receiver?

How are the speaker wired? Series or parallel?

 

[tmman]

haha, I know... its terrible. Unfortunately, that's how it was wired long ago by whoever. Anything listed as 2 speakers in the aforementioned list is wired straight from the speaker to the speaker selector. The 6 speaker split and the 4 speaker split go into some type of non-powered piece of equipment in the attic. There is no name on it, unfortunately. So in the 6 speaker example, 6 speakers independently plug into the unknown "wiring strip" in the attic and one output wire runs to the speaker selector. The same happens for the 4 speaker split example.

The speaker selector has on/off and a/b for each channel.

Should I be looking for a much beefier receiver? Perhaps there is some other type of equipment/amp that I could attach to help? Would it be better to utilize multiple receivers and the a/b selection on the speaker selector in some creative manner to still maintain the same music output on all speakers?

As you can see I am incredibly new to this and I really appreciate you taking the time!

 

[markw]

It sounds like you have a professionally installed system there. Odds are that it's gonna take more than a receiver to do what you want. I'd seriously consider involving another professional to look at what you have and go from there.

 

[tmman]

Without having to hire professionals, in the name of time, could you recommend any stronger equipment? Could I switch to a receiver with preouts and employ an external amp? Any further info or product suggestions would be extremely helpful!

 

[slipperybidness]

Without having to hire professionals, in the name of time, could you recommend any stronger equipment? Could I switch to a receiver with preouts and employ an external amp? Any further info or product suggestions would be extremely helpful!

Without knowing the equipment, and how it is wired (series/parallel), you are really taking a shot in the dark any way you look at it. That is why he suggested getting a pro's opinion.

If you are determined to DIY, you might get more help if you post pics. Nobody online is gonna be able to give you a quick and easy answer to a complex problem like this.

 

[tmman]

I totally understand the need for a professional and that this is not an easy problem. I will try to obtain some pictures and make a diagram in hopes of receiving further help from the professionals here in this forum.

 

[BMXTRIX]

The biggest issue we all have is that nobody here can tell you how things were wired and what the impedance is of the multiple speakers which are being landed on one channel of amplification. It's fine to throw an impedance matching volume control in when you have a reasonable setup, but this isn't it.

I would, off the cuff, recommend something like a good multi-channel dedicated amplifier such as this one:
Sonance Sonamp 1250 12 Channel Power Amplifier Low Bin | eBay

It has 12 individual channels of amplification so the speaker pairs out there can all be run individually. You can take a single source in and the amplifier can be directed to use that single source for the entire distribution system, and that leaves you the very random 4 speakers and 6 speakers which are magically wired elsewhere do deal with. Those speakers are what will bring down a system rather easily if not wired properly, and since they are all wired in the ceiling... somewhere... It's an issue and the ohm load needs to be checked to ensure that isn't what is bringing it all down.

 

[tmman]

Thanks for taking the time! I am attempting to build a list of actual model numbers. So far, I can provide this:
AVR: Sony STR-Dh740
Speaker Selector: Amazon.com: 2X6 Matrix Speaker Selector Switch Switcher Volume Level Control, 2-AMP 6-ZONE 900-Watt: Electronics
Speakers: Klipsch speaker (working on getting details)
Speaker Splitter (up in attic): Getting details
Media Player (not important, I imagine): Grace Digital Tuner Pro

I will update as soon as I get the rest of the information.

Thank you all very much!

 

[tmman]

My other thought was connecting the media player to a more powerful amp (Pyle 3201 or 3001...I dont know the quality
of these products) and connecting the speaker selector Receiver 'A' to the Pyle. I could then turn on half of
the speakers on the selector to Channel 'A'. Then maybe I connect Receiver 'B' on the speaker selector to the STR-DH740
and turn the other half of the speakers on the selector to Channel 'B'. Then maybe I could connect the pre-out on the
pyle to an input on the STR-DH740...? Is this crazy and/or stupid? This is just a random solution I was hoping may provide
enough power. Thoughts?

 

[slipperybidness]

My other thought was connecting the media player to a more powerful amp (Pyle 3201 or 3001...I dont know the quality
of these products) and connecting the speaker selector Receiver 'A' to the Pyle. I could then turn on half of
the speakers on the selector to Channel 'A'. Then maybe I connect Receiver 'B' on the speaker selector to the STR-DH740
and turn the other half of the speakers on the selector to Channel 'B'. Then maybe I could connect the pre-out on the
pyle to an input on the STR-DH740...? Is this crazy and/or stupid? This is just a random solution I was hoping may provide
enough power. Thoughts?

The thing is, just like BMX said, you don't know the speaker impedance or how they are wired.

You could have these things wired up to where the amp will see a 1ohm load or worse. Not many amps are gonna be able to put out that kind of power.

If you don't know what the speaker impedance is and the series/parallel configuration of each speaker, then any way you look at it you proceed at your own risk.

That is step #1. What is the impedance of each and every speaker and how are they wired. When you know that, then you can figure out what amp (if any) might be appropriate. If it were my equipment, I would be 100% on this, or rewire them myself into an acceptable setup, or pay someone that is 100% confident.

 

[Speedskater]

Most pro multi-speaker big rooms like this use what is known as a 70 Volt system. Each speaker has an adjustable matching transformer. You might look at one of the ceiling speaker's and gather information.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Hi All,

Let me start by saying I am fairly new to the world of audio equipment. I am attempting to replace some equipment in a restaurant and need a little advice. The restaurant was wired years ago in the following manner:

Current setup:
-6 speakers split into one channel (up in the attic somewhere)
-2 speakers on a channel
-2 speakers on a channel
-2 speakers on a channel
-2 speakers on a channel
-4 speakers split into one channel (up in the attic somewhere)
-Sony STR-DH740 Receiver
-6 channel impedance matching speaker selector with volume control (channel A connecting to receiver)
-Grace Digital Audio player (digital optical cable connecting to receiver)

I realize this is probably not a good or ideal setup, save the lecturing! My belief is that the current receiver is being pushed awfully hard and because of such it intermittently switches into "Protector" mode and turns off.

Using the current wiring setup, what is the best manner to make sure the speakers are receiving enough power to hopefully not trip the receiver? Should I look for a larger/more powerful receiver? Do I need some other piece of equipment to help power all of these?

Again, I want to keep this as simple as possible and hopefully receive some advice from professionals here on what receiver/amp I should be using.

Any help is greatly appreciated!!

Best!

If I am understanding your setup, you have 6 speaker wires coming from the attic to your 7 channel receiver.
To start, if you know how and have an ohm meter, you could measure the DC resistance of each pair of speaker wires without being connected to the receiver. This would give some idea what you are up against. Regardless, two sets of speaker wires have 10 speakers combined. This would have to be rewired in the attic and more wire run to the location where the receiver is.

Does the receiver trip with very low volume? More volume?
If you know which two sets of wires have the 10 speakers connected, disconnect those two and see if it still trips?
Is that impedance matching volume control in the attic or by the receiver?
The 4 speaker configuration, any impedance matching? One pair of wires for them coming down from the attic?
Is the 4 speaker wire and the 6 speaker wire connected to different channels on the receiver?
What do you know about the speakers, can you get their brand names and model?

You still have a 90 watt receiver trying to drive 18 speakers so in is audible. Depending on the answers, that Sonance might help but you may still need help to rewire the setup.

 

[BMXTRIX]

Yeah, I would REALLY jump on that Sonance I linked to. It's a phenomenal price and certainly will be usable at the end of all this no matter what. Unlike the Sony, it delivers about 600 true watts of power into an 8 ohm system and is easily 4 ohm stable. It provides 12 discrete channels which means you can really feed the speakers as you need to with only a few doubling up here and there... No speaker selector is necessary with it, no impedance matching either. I generally see that amp sell for $600+ on eBay, and it has a MSRP of about $2,000.

 

[tmman]

Unfortunately, the volume and on/off must be easy to change and it looks rather difficult on the Sonance unit. I have to be able to expect waitstaff to easily adjust volume levels among different channels (rooms). That is the reason I have employed the speaker selector... which seems to work great for the staff. I am attempting to draw a Visio diagram that shows all connections and details for the setup, which will hopefully shed some more light on the situation. I am really hoping that the solution will be around purchasing of a new receiver with preouts and using external amps to power this beast.

Again, thank you all very much for taking an interest in my situation! All this help is great!

 

[markw]

Now I'm confused: You begged for help, specifically from professionals, for free, and now you are getting it from one of the best on the board and yet you still think you know better than him how to solve this problem?

Did you really think that amp was the total answer to all your problems? No, it's just a start. Did it ever occur to you that that Sonance just might be the ideal external amp for your situation, and he knows that?

There ain't no quick and easy way to solve your problems. Well, there is but you don't want to pay a professional to come out there and do it.

 

[tmman]

Hi MarkW, I didn't mean to come off that way. I was taking a look at the product and it appeared that you needed a screwdriver and/or needed to get to the back of the unit to adjust volume per channel. I was afraid that this may make things too difficult for restaurant staff that knows even less about audio than I do.

I just want to make sure that whatever money I spend, the equipment has an end use. All this stuff is very expensive, as you well know.

Perhaps a new AVR (that has a preout, mine does not) with a preout that goes to the sonance unit and then each channel could go from the sonance to a volume control of some type and then to the speaker?

I have made the following diagram (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4UrCT385LKldmNGeTU3OU9VMFk/edit?usp=sharing) and will update it later once I receive the model numbers and technical details for the speakers and splitters. But I thought it may help.

Again, MarcW, I really do appreciate all the help and didn't mean to come off negatively.

Best!

 

[BMXTRIX]

Unfortunately, the volume and on/off must be easy to change and it looks rather difficult on the Sonance unit. I have to be able to expect waitstaff to easily adjust volume levels among different channels (rooms). That is the reason I have employed the speaker selector... which seems to work great for the staff. I am attempting to draw a Visio diagram that shows all connections and details for the setup, which will hopefully shed some more light on the situation. I am really hoping that the solution will be around purchasing of a new receiver with preouts and using external amps to power this beast.

You definitely don't want to use an A/V receiver in a professional situation as that will lead to headaches and more failures down the line. The proper amplification for this setup, especially as I believe that you will find the speakers to all be 8 ohm is by using a multi-channel amplifier to properly power them. Short of a 70v system (which should have been installed) the best, and proper way to power multiple 8-ohm speakers is with a multi-channel amplifier.

For volume controls, they can then be placed in-line between the amplifier and the speakers as necessary. This way you can maintain speaker level volume control and still have the proper power necessary so that the amp doesn't shut down.

If your priority is reliability, then this is step two. Step ONE is making sure that you are in fact dealing with 8 ohm speakers (which I suspect you are).

The need for additional controls, perhaps source selection, etc. is all easily obtainable as well in the long run. Please note that the Sonance can be installed with their attenuators (volume) facing outward and that full volume control will be available, but it may not be the final desired setup that is wanted. What it will be is reliable.

 

[tmman]

Would I be looking at: Media Player --> some kind of source selection (similar to AVR) --> preout --> sonance 12 channel amplifier --> volume control --> speaker ?

Based on my diagram, will I have enough channels to run everything or will I need another unit as well? It's tough for me to discern, but it appears it all may JUST fit.

On the note about inline volume control... does anyone produce a box that can handle all of these, so I don't have 6-8 separate knobs hanging about?

 

[BMXTRIX]

More or less... If you don't have more than one source, you don't need a source selector.
SOURCE (Media Player)
to
Amplifier
to
VC #1, VC #2, VC #3, VC #4, etc.
to
Speakers

You want to spend some time properly zoning up the different speakers so that the volume controls properly affect them in stereo groups that make sense. This will typically be between 2 and four speakers per volume control. I would shoot to put the volume controls in a single long low-voltage box in the wall and then label them so that staff knows which speakers they are affecting.

Generally, you WANT to adjust volume individually for different sections within a restaurant space so that areas which are crowded may get a bit more volume, and areas which you want quiet or aren't in use, don't get that audio sent to them. If you want to adjust the entire area as a 'single' space, then you can put a volume control ahead of the amplifier to adjust the source itself down.

Source (Media Player)
to
Pre-amp (volume control)
to
Amplifier
to
Speakers (properly zoned)

if you want both...
Source (Media Player)
to
Pre-amp
to
Amplifier
to
VC #1, VC #2, etc
to
Speakers

A pre-amp can be from any number of products out there, but this one is nice and basic...
Amazon.com: TCC TC-780LC Stereo Line Level Amp / Booster with iPod Jack; BLACK VERSION: Electronics

A really nice one would be more like this:
USP-1 Stereo Preamp | Emotiva Audio | High-end audio components for audiophiles and videophiles, spanning 2-channel music systems, as well as 5.1 and 7.1 home theaters. Products include multichannel amplifiers, stereo amplifiers, and monoblock amplif
Which gives you both source selection and volume control across whichever source is selected.

Often we use mic mixers and products of that nature in our installations which then run through a digital signal processor and a control system with iPad or other touchpanel control so that individual areas can be tweaked while walking through a space, and hostess microphone can be mixed into the audio appropriately. What you are talking about really is 'cheap' comparatively.