How good is the DACs that come with the receiver/pre for music?

[sjcguy]

Hi guys.
I may sound like a new kid in town and I know you guys have very impressive setup so please don't laugh.

I recently got an used Marantz NA7004 just because I want its flexibility to play music from any source: from NAS, thumb drive, or streaming from itune if I happen to use a pc for doing work or photo editing. Normally I used the optical out to the receiver and it sound not much different from what I had before: broken netbook <-> usbtospdif <-> receiver. One day, I was curious and hooked up the analog output from the Marantz to the HK receiver and wow and I feel like I finally got what I have been searching for. I am also impressed when I tried its headphone output with my ATH-900X.

Then I hooked up the NA7004 on both systems:
1. HK AV635-Polk RT116, Velydyne Impact 10 (after read the review from Audioholics)
2. Sony 5ES, RMB-1075, Polk Lsi15, Velodyne 3750 sub/
In both cases, the music sounds smooth and open up, vocal is clear and warm, the instrumental is more distinct. With internal DAC from the HK and Sony, the music sounds good but a little bit compressed and the high is not as smooth.

Is the DAC quality overlooked when people are trying to get a better amp, receiver and speakers? I don't think the Sony 5ES was cheap I bought new with employee discount but it doesn't have what I wanted. The same to many new receivers which are very fancy and have so many bells and whistles, do they have a decent DAC for music? I don't think the sampling rate, bit rate tell the whole story anymore.

I never thought about it when I bought my receiver and now I really don't know what to get in case I want to replace the sony 5ES. I have limited budget and there is no space for another external DAC. Any comment and suggestion?
Thang.

 

[j_garcia]

The biggest improvement for your money is speakers, period. When it comes to DACs however, I do feel they play role and it sounds like the Marantz is doing a better job than either receiver OR it uses a much different algorithm outputting via digital. Neither of those receivers are slouches, so I'd have to guess it is one of those. Some are going to disagree with me on that, but that's my opinion.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

"The biggest improvement for your money is speakers, period." +1
but my opinion OP's HK AVR DAC should do job as good as any marantz and I doubt than that sony avr dac is any worse.
If OP is interested in in improving the sound there are only three things to do: a) speakers b) room treatments c) possibly room correct system (I guess OP's AVRs lack that, but it's c) for the reason)

The rest is truly insignificant

 

[Irvrobinson]

It's possible that there is an audible difference between using the Marantz and the internal DACs. Unlikely, but possible. Receivers can include a lot of circuit compromises for reducing power dissipation and cost, especially power dissipation, and that would mean that the Marantz on a line-level input could be better in some way than the internal DAC path. The Marantz uses a far more extravagantly designed DAC section than any receiver I'm aware of.

On the other hand, you're still running this through the same line-level driver stage and amplifier stages in the receivers, and those sections typically are more subject to cost-cutting limitations than the DAC circuitry.

I'm also wondering, did you precisely match the output levels when you were doing these comparisons? If not, who knows what could have caused your preferences, or they could still be all in your head.

What, exactly, was your source material?

 

[j_garcia]

but my opinion OP's HK AVR DAC should do job as good as any marantz and I doubt than that sony avr dac is any worse.

Those older Sony ESs have decent amp sections and DACs and the H/Ks typically do as well, but I'd be surprised if either didn't sound good as is. Listening mode can greatly affect the results of the sound as well. The Marantz unit is performing post-processing on the media so produces a slightly different sound, so it could be any number of things that would need to be looked at.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Those older Sony ESs have decent amp sections and DACs and the H/Ks typically do as well, but I'd be surprised if either didn't sound good as is. Listening mode can greatly affect the results of the sound as well. The Marantz unit is performing post-processing on the media so produces a slightly different sound, so it could be any number of things that would need to be looked at.

all very true

 

[ImcLoud]

I always say that marantz dac is a good value MARANTZ NA7004 NETWORK ENABLED DAC at Music Direct maybe best full sized next to the xda2 {it has more features}...

Anyway if you are listening to music and can't tell the difference between an internal dac from an avr and even a small audioengine d1 dac there is something wrong with your ears... For me when I switched to the i20 dock digitally plugged into the dac then directly to the amplifier it was like night and day when playing an ipod... I always preach "most Direct path possible" taking the digital signal from your ipod, feeding it to your dac and then analog out into your amplifier {useing either a dac with volume control or an integrated amplifier} is about as direct as you will get... I have tried a few ipod docks, the cambridge audio {own 1] the wadia, and the i20, the cheapest pure i20 is my favorite.... For music, why clutter everything up with video circuits and all that other stuff, the more you remove the better the sound will be...

 

[ImcLoud]

What happens when you already have speakers you like and just want to clean up the signal, sure speakers make the biggest difference, but when you already have a decent speaker, spending $400 on a dac to clean up the sound, or $200 on a integrated amp for music, is going to make a bigger difference than spending that money on speakers if you already own an $800 set...

 

[Pyrrho]

What happens when you already have speakers you like and just want to clean up the signal, sure speakers make the biggest difference, but when you already have a decent speaker, spending $400 on a dac to clean up the sound, or $200 on a integrated amp for music, is going to make a bigger difference than spending that money on speakers if you already own an $800 set...

Better speakers "clean up" the signal. All speakers distort the sound, though in different ways and in different amounts. I have never "cleaned up" a system better than by replacing speakers with something significantly better. Usually, this involves speakers that cost significantly more.

If you doubt this, I recommend taking your favorite CD (if it is well recorded) to your local audio stores and listening to it with their best speakers.

It is a sad fact of life that it often costs quite a lot to get things right. A long time ago, I tried to improve the sound of my LPs by upgrading my cartridge. I could never compete with my brother's turntable, even with a cheaper cartridge. Money put in the wrong place is money that is wasted.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Hi guys.
I may sound like a new kid in town and I know you guys have very impressive setup so please don't laugh.

I recently got an used Marantz NA7004 just because I want its flexibility to play music from any source: from NAS, thumb drive, or streaming from itune if I happen to use a pc for doing work or photo editing. Normally I used the optical out to the receiver and it sound not much different from what I had before: broken netbook <-> usbtospdif <-> receiver. One day, I was curious and hooked up the analog output from the Marantz to the HK receiver and wow and I feel like I finally got what I have been searching for. I am also impressed when I tried its headphone output with my ATH-900X.

Then I hooked up the NA7004 on both systems:
1. HK AV635-Polk RT116, Velydyne Impact 10 (after read the review from Audioholics)
2. Sony 5ES, RMB-1075, Polk Lsi15, Velodyne 3750 sub/
In both cases, the music sounds smooth and open up, vocal is clear and warm, the instrumental is more distinct. With internal DAC from the HK and Sony, the music sounds good but a little bit compressed and the high is not as smooth.

Is the DAC quality overlooked when people are trying to get a better amp, receiver and speakers? I don't think the Sony 5ES was cheap I bought new with employee discount but it doesn't have what I wanted. The same to many new receivers which are very fancy and have so many bells and whistles, do they have a decent DAC for music? I don't think the sampling rate, bit rate tell the whole story anymore.

I never thought about it when I bought my receiver and now I really don't know what to get in case I want to replace the sony 5ES. I have limited budget and there is no space for another external DAC. Any comment and suggestion?
Thang.

How good are the DAC in today's AVR?
In a word - superb.

 

[RichB]

How good are the DAC in today's AVR?
In a word - superb.

Agreed, but the circuitry feeding the DAC and the analog stages after are not created equal.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Agreed, but the circuitry feeding the DAC and the analog stages after are not created equal.

- Rich

The $300 AVR don't measure any differently than the high end pre-pro (SNR, XTalk, THX, FR). So they should sound the same, especially in PD mode.
Not that I buy $300AVR or anything.

 

[RichB]

The $300 AVR don't measure any differently than the high end pre-pro (SNR, XTalk, THX, FR). So they should sound the same, especially in PD mode.
Not that I buy $300AVR or anything.

I don't either.
At 1 watt they measure the similarly but less or more, it depends
Students have been taught the test

- Rich

 

[sjcguy]

Agreed, but the circuitry feeding the DAC and the analog stages after are not created equal.

- Rich

I think I need to rephrase my question. It's not just about the DACs but the whole signal path.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think I need to rephrase my question. It's not just about the DACs but the whole signal path.

And when they measure the AVR & pre-pro THD, FR, SNR, XTalk, they measure the whole signal path from input to output.
Even a $300 AVR looks clean from input to output.

 

[PENG]

And when they measure the AVR & pre-pro THD, FR, SNR, XTalk, they measure the whole signal path from input to output.
Even a $300 AVR looks clean from input to output.

I don't have much doubt that you are right about a $300 AVR because over the years I have had cheap DVD players like $39.99 through to $99.99 (equivalent to around $19.99 to $39.99 nowadays) that sounded great as long as the quality of the media sources were great.

At least 3 of them that I can remember, only one, the most expensive one sounded terrible via it's analog out. The other two real cheap ones sounded as good as any of my more expensive system including the Oppo 105 and Marantz AV8801. I believe Rich has very good ears but if we do a simple single blind test together I would bet he could pick out the Oppo from my cheap Philips 50% of the time. I don't have the Salon2's resolution but I also bet aside from bass my Electra's Be tweeters are just as revealing. Now I am quite sure he will bet the opposite.

 

[RichB]

I don't have much doubt that you are right about a $300 AVR because over the years I have had cheap DVD players like $39.99 through to $99.99 (equivalent to around $19.99 to $39.99 nowadays) that sounded great as long as the quality of the media sources were great.

At least 3 of them that I can remember, only one, the most expensive one sounded terrible via it's analog out. The other two real cheap ones sounded as good as any of my more expensive system including the Oppo 105 and Marantz AV8801. I believe Rich has very good ears but if we do a simple single blind test together I would bet he could pick out the Oppo from my cheap Philips 50% of the time. I don't have the Salon2's resolution but I also bet aside from bass my Electra's Be tweeters are just as revealing. Now I am quite sure he will bet the opposite.

I'll bet I could do better than that.
Next time your in Boston, bring it along

BTW, I pulled out my old Sony DVD S7700 player a while back and compared it to the Oppo and it sounded pretty good.
Both used analog outs. The bass was not as tight and the top end was not as resolved. I am sure you could hear the difference with your Focal's Be's excellent tweeters.

I am not a big fan of the blind-test thing but it is ok so long as you can instantaneously switch between sources. That is an requirement since auditory memory is so short.

I don't have Salon 2's either, just the lowly old Salons (1's)

- Rich

 

[PENG]

I'll bet I could do better than that.
Next time your in Boston, bring it along

BTW, I pulled out my old Sony DVD S7700 player a while back and compared it to the Oppo and it sounded pretty good.
Both used analog outs. The bass was not as tight and the top end was not as resolved. I am sure you could hear the difference with your Focal's Be's excellent tweeters.

I am not a big fan of the blind-test thing but it is ok so long as you can instantaneously switch between sources. That is an requirement since auditory memory is so short.

No kidding, I have to agree with you that instantaneously switching is key. That's why I always thought you and Irv's claims of hearing the differences between gear are highly believable because you guys are not talking about night and day, huge, and kind of fluff stuff. Also that's why I only said I bet, because I know I may lose, or win, just a bet.

I don't have Salon 2's either, just the lowly old Salons (1's)

Okay then may be we can get invited to ADTG's, but seriously I recognize even the lowly 1's are highly regarded and my Focal can't really compute with them.

 

[Irvrobinson]

No kidding, I have to agree with you that instantaneously switching is key. That's why I always thought you and Irv's claims of hearing the differences between gear are highly believable because you guys are not talking about night and day, huge, and kind of fluff stuff. Also that's why I only said I bet, because I know I may lose, or win, just a bet.

I often can't hear a difference between electronics either, even with instantaneous switching. For example, I couldn't hear the difference between the Mark Levinson No39 CD player in DAC mode and the Benchmark DAC1-HDR in DAC mode, switched through a Levinson pre-amp, or an Accuphase pre-amp for that matter. No matter how hard I tried I couldn't develop a preference for either the No39 or the DAC1 while both were in pre-amp mode either. I found that pretty fascinating, because when I bought the No39 in 1997 it just blew me away. My top-of-the-line Sony CD player was history, as was the pre-amp I was using. Even though the price for the Levinson was beyond ridiculous, $5900 in 1997, I couldn't live without it. Of course, the cool part of owning the No39 was that I sold it in 2011 for $2700. Try that trick with another piece of digital gear.

I think IC-based audio has just gotten so good that most differences are moot these days, so long as the designers don't skimp on power supplies, or skimp on the current capabilities of the line stages. I still don't trust inexpensive AVRs for that reason. If you put your hand on the Levinson or the Benchmark after an hour of operation they are very warm to the touch. There's a reason for that, and it isn't the digital circuitry. I think most of the AVR guys must be skimping, unless you're spending a lot of dollars, and then I'd rather have separates.

I have wondered what my Outlaw PrePro would sound like compared to the Benchmark, but I'm too lazy to take it out of the video system, put in the audio system, and then put the video system back together.

 

[PENG]

I often can't hear a difference between electronics either, even with instantaneous switching. For example, I couldn't hear the difference between the Mark Levinson No39 CD player in DAC mode and the Benchmark DAC1-HDR in DAC mode, switched through a Levinson pre-amp, or an Accuphase pre-amp for that matter. No matter how hard I tried I couldn't develop a preference for either the No39 or the DAC1 while both were in pre-amp mode either. I found that pretty fascinating, because when I bought the No39 in 1997 it just blew me away. My top-of-the-line Sony CD player was history, as was the pre-amp I was using. Even though the price for the Levinson was beyond ridiculous, $5900 in 1997, I couldn't live without it. Of course, the cool part of owning the No39 was that I sold it in 2011 for $2700. Try that trick with another piece of digital gear.

But I remember you talked about the long term effects so in the last couple of weeks I have been listening to the same 60 to 80 pieces of assorted music from 16/44.1 through 24/192 all on an USB thumb drive and almost the same contents on a DVD disc over and over again comparing the AV8801 USB input direct, Oppo 105 USB direct via HDMI output to the AV8801 and using the same USB thumb drive but via analog output to AV8801. After almost two weeks I still have not developed a clear preference except at one point I thought I preferred the sound of the Oppo 105 playing the DVD disc instead of the USB thumb drive but I was never sure about that either.

I have wondered what my Outlaw PrePro would sound like compared to the Benchmark, but I'm too lazy to take it out of the video system, put in the audio system, and then put the video system back together.

Talk about being lazy, so far I have only done serious long term comparative listening as described above, using my HT system but playing two channel music only. I would really want to do the same to compare my other two channel system components but I highly doubt I can overcome my "laziness". As to short term A/B switching tests I have done enough in the past and already know that I have no chance of scoring better than 50%.