**Lightning took out my TV and Receiver...Questions!**

[lsiberian]

Put it this way, the temperature of a typical lightning bolt can reach 50,000 F degrees and some people think a little surge protector is going to stop current that reaches from 10,000 amps and higher . The famous strike just before the Apollo 15 launch in 1971 was measured at 100,000 amperes. Sure break out that little surge protector... I say screw with mother nature and she will win sooner or later.

That's why my APC units come with lightning insurance. They've been burying power lines for years in our area so lightning is not the issue it once was.

 

[westom]

Fully qualified electricians did all the power wiring for the mains in all out installations and all plugs were properly grounded.

And again, safety ground in a wall receptacle is not earth ground. No matter how many times that is said, some just know more than engineers. If a modem is earthed, then 1) you have violated electrical codes for safety, and 2) you have made modem damage easier.

Earth a surge - not modems. I do not understand why you find this so hard. And then post insults. You did not even know the difference between safety ground and earth ground. And still hope modems are protected because they are earthed. Earthing a modem makes surge damage easier. Instead, earth the surge.

Electricians do almost nothing for transistor safety. Code only defines wiring for human safety. Transistor safety is always about both meeting and exceeding code requirements. Homes properly wired (and grounded) by electricians typically do not have effective protection. Effective protection means no damage even from direct lightning strikes. Even the protector is unharmed. Why are properly sized protectors rates at least 50,000 amps. Because direct lightning strikes should cause no damage even to the protector.

Posted many times previously were examples. And numbers that define lightning protection by a properly earthed 'whole house' protector.

Orange County FL repeatedly had damage due to direct lightning strikes. Damage from lightning means a human made a mistake. In their case, the telco failed to install proper earthing. An analysis always starts by inspection of what does the protection - single point earth ground. Orange County finally stopped damage to 911 response centers by fixing the only reason for their lightning damage. They fixed what does protection - earth ground:
Case Study: Florida 911 Center Upgrades Lightning Protection System for Maximum Safety

Only the naive install a UPS or some magic box that will stop a surge. Informed consumers know the only item that does protection is single point earth ground. Effective protectors are obvious. They make that low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth ground.

UPS has no such connection and avoids discussing it. UPS (that costs many times more money) does not claim to protect from typically destructive surges such as lightning.

As for APC's warranty - good luck getting it honored. Many have tried. APC does not claim protection from destructive surges. Its warranty is full of exemptions. In free markets, products with a 'best' warranty are often inferior. GM has a best auto warranty. Does that prove GM is better than Honda, Toyota, and Hyundai? Of course not.

 

[markw]

Wasty, I'm just sorry that giving you any more reddies now would be a waste of my ammo. I'll just save 'em until they would do some good.

 

[3db]

The famous strike just before the Apollo 15 launch in 1971 was measured at 100,000 amperes. .

Geeze!! My speakers are barely warming up at that point.



Seriously, unless the power cables are buried deep enough, there's not much that will lightening from damage. Mother nature ALWAYS wins.

 

[lsiberian]

Wasty, I'm just sorry that giving you any more reddies now would be a waste of my ammo. I'll just save 'em until they would do some good.

With all the lies he's spread on the forum he better be lightning proof.

 

[westom]

Seriously, unless the power cables are buried deep enough, there's not much that will lightening from damage.

Buried cables do not avert damage from lightning strikes. A professional Tech Note demonstrates two structures. Any wire entering either structure must first connect to that structure's single point earth ground. This applies even to underground telephone wires.
http://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/technotes/tncr002.pdf

If any wire (overhead or underground) is not properly earthed to single point earth ground (directly or via a protector), then surge damage can result. Even buried wires can connect destructive surges into a building.

 

[3db]

Buried cables do not avert damage from lightning strikes.

I agree but I never said that. It sure reduces the chance of a lightening strike compared to wires held up in the air by poles. That's my point.

A professional Tech Note demonstrates two structures. Any wire entering either structure must first connect to that structure's single point earth ground. This applies even to underground telephone wires.
http://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/technotes/tncr002.pdf

If any wire (overhead or underground) is not properly earthed to single point earth ground (directly or via a protector), then surge damage can result. Even buried wires can connect destructive surges into a building.

Surge protectors are next to useless even when properly grounded by a direct lightening hit. They burn just like the rest of the copper conductor connected to it.

 

[Rickster71]

And again, safety ground in a wall receptacle is not earth ground. No matter how many times that is said, some just know more than engineers. If a modem is earthed, then 1) you have violated electrical codes for safety, and 2) you have made modem damage easier.

Earth a surge - not modems. I do not understand why you find this so hard. And then post insults. You did not even know the difference between safety ground and earth ground. And still hope modems are protected because they are earthed. Earthing a modem makes surge damage easier. Instead, earth the surge.

Electricians do almost nothing for transistor safety. Code only defines wiring for human safety. Transistor safety is always about both meeting and exceeding code requirements. Homes properly wired (and grounded) by electricians typically do not have effective protection. Effective protection means no damage even from direct lightning strikes. Even the protector is unharmed. Why are properly sized protectors rates at least 50,000 amps. Because direct lightning strikes should cause no damage even to the protector.

Posted many times previously were examples. And numbers that define lightning protection by a properly earthed 'whole house' protector.

Orange County FL repeatedly had damage due to direct lightning strikes. Damage from lightning means a human made a mistake. In their case, the telco failed to install proper earthing. An analysis always starts by inspection of what does the protection - single point earth ground. Orange County finally stopped damage to 911 response centers by fixing the only reason for their lightning damage. They fixed what does protection - earth ground:
Case Study: Florida 911 Center Upgrades Lightning Protection System for Maximum Safety

Only the naive install a UPS or some magic box that will stop a surge. Informed consumers know the only item that does protection is single point earth ground. Effective protectors are obvious. They make that low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth ground.

UPS has no such connection and avoids discussing it. UPS (that costs many times more money) does not claim to protect from typically destructive surges such as lightning.

As for APC's warranty - good luck getting it honored. Many have tried. APC does not claim protection from destructive surges. Its warranty is full of exemptions. In free markets, products with a 'best' warranty are often inferior. GM has a best auto warranty. Does that prove GM is better than Honda, Toyota, and Hyundai? Of course not.

I don't usually drink this early in the morning.
But when I do..... westom is posting.

 

[Adam]

I don't usually drink this early in the morning.
But when I do..... westcom is posting.

I see that you've already started.

Luckily, I don't have such restrictions. But, if I did, I'd just start a thread about lightning, crack open a cold one, and sit back.

 

[lsiberian]

I don't usually drink this early in the morning.
But when I do..... westom is posting.

I see that you've already started.

Luckily, I don't have such restrictions. But, if I did, I'd just start a thread about lightning, crack open a cold one, and sit back.

Lucky for you both I've combined the two.

 

[Ampdog]

It would seem that some agreement on terminology is required. By a "surge" one refers (at least down here in the RSA) to a voltage surge on the mains supply. That is caused by a disturbance in the field pattern surrounding an electrical grid, say in a town. (The electrical network normally causes a more or less even field as a result of all the grounded electricity poles where overhead wiring still exists. That also mercifully prevents a rapid field intensity from building up inside itself, making a down strike in a town relatively uncommon. I say relatively; one must always keep in mind that lightning has - er - "a mind of its own".) That is why town house damage largely results from a surge wave travelling back and forth down the mains grid when a down strike has 'upset' the field somewhere in the vicinity. Standing waves result; it may be your bad luck to have the peak of such on the network at the position of your house.

That can be 'shorted' mostly by surge protectors, depending on their design. As said, such peaks may be milli-seconds in duration with hopefully less energy than the protector is able to handle.

Direct strikes as said are 'unhandleable' by man-made measures. Several thousands of amps, millions of volts before the strike ..... The solution to that is easy: There is nothing man can do. As is often said in treatises on lightning: The only way to safeguard your house is to have it inside a hole in the ground of sufficient size that nothing sticks out, and then cover the hole with a wire mesh.

 

[westom]

Direct strikes without damage are routine in most every town. Why so many examples of direct strikes without damage? Many 'feel' lightning damage is inevitable. Some even believe lightning is capricious. Nonsense. Franklin showed how damage is averted in 1752. And still many know otherwise because feelings prove superiority over history and science.

According to research from the US Forestry Service, well over 95% of trees directly struck by lightning have no appreciable indication. Why so many strikes to trees without damage? How can this be when millions of volts destroy everything? Lightning damage is traceable to human ignorance and inaction. Even a million volt number is only the naive rationalizing. Solutions means near zero voltage. Damage is easily averted as demonstrated even in 1752.

Lightning seeks earth ground. A path for a 20,000 amp electric surge is via a wooden church steeple destructively to earth. Wood is not a good conductor. So 20,000 amps creates a high voltage. 20,000 amps times a high voltage is high energy. Church steeple damaged.

Franklin installed a lightning rod. 20,000 amps is via a wire to an earthing electrode. High current creates near zero voltage. 20,000 amps times a near zero voltage is near zero energy. Nothing damaged.

Lightning seeks earth ground. A lightning strike to utility wires far down the street is a direct strike, incoming to every household appliance, destructively to earth. Appliances are not good conductors. So lightning creates a high voltage. Lightning current times a high voltage is high energy. Appliances damaged.

For over 100 years, facilities that cannot have damage installed superior earthing connected low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') via one 'whole house' protector. Then high current creates near zero voltage. 20,000 amps times a near zero voltage is near zero energy. No appliance is damaged.

Above describes simple and well proven protection for structures and appliances. Based in over 100 years of experience. When properly earthed, then a 20,000 amp current creates near zero voltage. Surge protection is about connecting significant currents harmlessly to earth. The emotional post profanity and insults to justify their ignorance and inaction. The informed suffer direct lightning strikes without damage.

The OP can avert future appliance damage by implementing well proven technology - that typically costs about $1 per protected appliance.

 

[cpp]

Direct strikes without damage are routine in most every town. Why so many examples of direct strikes without damage? Many 'feel' lightning damage is inevitable. Some even believe lightning is capricious. Nonsense. Franklin showed how damage is averted in 1752. And still many know otherwise because feelings prove superiority over history and science.

According to research from the US Forestry Service, well over 95% of trees directly struck by lightning have no appreciable indication. Why so many strikes to trees without damage? How can this be when millions of volts destroy everything? Lightning damage is traceable to human ignorance and inaction. Even a million volt number is only the naive rationalizing. Solutions means near zero voltage. Damage is easily averted as demonstrated even in 1752.

Lightning seeks earth ground. A path for a 20,000 amp electric surge is via a wooden church steeple destructively to earth. Wood is not a good conductor. So 20,000 amps creates a high voltage. 20,000 amps times a high voltage is high energy. Church steeple damaged.

Franklin installed a lightning rod. 20,000 amps is via a wire to an earthing electrode. High current creates near zero voltage. 20,000 amps times a near zero voltage is near zero energy. Nothing damaged.

Lightning seeks earth ground. A lightning strike to utility wires far down the street is a direct strike, incoming to every household appliance, destructively to earth. Appliances are not good conductors. So lightning creates a high voltage. Lightning current times a high voltage is high energy. Appliances damaged.

For over 100 years, facilities that cannot have damage installed superior earthing connected low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') via one 'whole house' protector. Then high current creates near zero voltage. 20,000 amps times a near zero voltage is near zero energy. No appliance is damaged.

Above describes simple and well proven protection for structures and appliances. Based in over 100 years of experience. When properly earthed, then a 20,000 amp current creates near zero voltage. Surge protection is about connecting significant currents harmlessly to earth. The emotional post profanity and insults to justify their ignorance and inaction. The informed suffer direct lightning strikes without damage.

The OP can avert future appliance damage by implementing well proven technology - that typically costs about $1 per protected appliance.

Can you provide the link from the US Forestry Service that states "well over 95% of trees directly struck by lightning have no appreciable indication" you appear to have posted this all over the forums in 2009

Not to mention this statement " An 18 gauge (electric lamp) wire can handle up to 60,000 amps. So even small ground wires are sized three or four times larger."

 

[markw]

Can you provide the link from the US Forestry Service that states "well over 95% of trees directly struck by lightning have no appreciable indication" you appear to have posted this all over the forums in 2009.

Not too many trees have sensitive electrical equipment in them, excepting perhaps the Keebler Elves.

 

[westom]

Can you provide the link from the US Forestry Service that states "well over 95% of trees directly struck by lightning have no appreciable indication"

The research was done many decades ago by Alan Taylor of the US Forestry Service. I believe Dr Uman discusses this in his 1970s books.

 

[westom]

" An 18 gauge (electric lamp) wire can handle up to 60,000 amps. So even small ground wires are sized three or four times larger."

A front page title article in EE Times entitled "Protecting Electrical Devices from Lightning Transients" in Oct 2007 discussed this. A bare 18 AWG (1 mm diameter) copper wire, in air, is rated to conducts 10 amperes safely. And will conduct continuous currents even up to 60 amps continuous without damage. That same wire will conduct something less than 60,000 amps surge current.

A 20,000 amps surge currents will not damage that wire. So we earth via a bare 6 AWG wire - many times thicker. Meaning surge currents exceeding 200,000 amps will not damage that wire.

A ten amp lamp cord wire can conduct currents over 50 amps continuous. Do not confuse continuous currents with surge currents. That same lamp cord wire will conduct tens of thousands of amps - a surge current.

 

[westom]

Not too many trees have sensitive electrical equipment in them, excepting perhaps the Keebler Elves.

How do you thnk they make those magical chocolate chips?

 

[cpp]

A front page title article in EE Times entitled "Protecting Electrical Devices from Lightning Transients" in Oct 2007 discussed this. A bare 18 AWG (1 mm diameter) copper wire, in air, is rated to conducts 10 amperes safely. And will conduct continuous currents even up to 60 amps continuous without damage. That same wire will conduct something less than 60,000 amps surge current.

A 20,000 amps surge currents will not damage that wire. So we earth via a bare 6 AWG wire - many times thicker. Meaning surge currents exceeding 200,000 amps will not damage that wire.

A ten amp lamp cord wire can conduct currents over 50 amps continuous. Do not confuse continuous currents with surge currents. That same lamp cord wire will conduct tens of thousands of amps - a surge current.

Using that very same article : "" consider that a bare 18 AWG (1 mm diameter) copper wire, in air, normally will conduct at least 10 amperes safely, with very low self-heating temperature rise. If the current slowly rises, the temperature will increase until the melting temperature of 1065° C (1950° F) is achieved at about 83 A" Get grounded: protecting electrical devices from lightning transients (Part 1 of 2) | EE Times

 

[westom]

Using that very same article : "" consider that a bare 18 AWG (1 mm diameter) copper wire, in air, normally will conduct at least 10 amperes safely, with very low self-heating temperature rise. If the current slowly rises, the temperature will increase until the melting temperature of 1065° C (1950° F) is achieved at about 83 A"

Why intentionally delete a most important sentence in that paragraph. Why intentionally distort the entire point of that engineering article?

He says

This same temperature could be reached "instantly" by an 8x20 µs pulse at a current of 61 kA.

His point is obvious. Small wires easily carry tens of thousands of surge amps to earth without damage. Even a lamp cord can carry tens of thousands of amps. He said it. You intentionally deleted it.

Also posted is this so that a mistake could only be intentional deceit:

Do not confuse continuous currents with surge currents. That same lamp cord wire will conduct tens of thousands of amps - a surge current.

Why does a 'whole house' protector earth direct lightning strikes without damage? It also uses sufficiently sized (12 AWG or 2 mm) wires to connect 50,000 amps harmlessly to earth. Do they lie when their spec numbers states 50,000 amps? Of course not. They make a claim with numbers. So they are not using junk science reasoning to deceive. Numbers provide perspective and the resulting honesty.

Many assume 2 and 4 mm wires cannot earth direct lightning strikes when it was routine even 100 years ago.

Apparently those church steeples protected by earthing a Franklin lightning rod were really destroyed. Since fables prove nothing can protect from direct lightning. Honesty provided by numbers shows why a 1 mm (ten amp) wire can even earth lightning.

At least have the decency to accurately quote the author and honestly represent his points.

The author then provides other numbers that define direct lightning strikes without damage.

Another aspect of impedance ... of a wire is predominately related to its length and weakly related to its diameter. ... The length of the cable increases the impedance dramatically.

Length of a wire to earth (as short as possible) is essential to effective protection.

... wire should have at least a 10 inch or 30 cm radius.

More important than wire thickness is eliminating sharp wire bends. More reasons why adjacent protectors do no protect from and can even make lightning damage to appliances easier. And then the naïve assume nothing can protect from lightning. After all, feelings, deception, and misquotes prove it.

 

[cpp]

Why intentionally delete a most important sentence in that paragraph. Why intentionally distort the entire point of that engineering article?

He says His point is obvious. Small wires easily carry tens of thousands of surge amps to earth without damage. Even a lamp cord can carry tens of thousands of amps. He said it. You intentionally deleted it.

Also posted is this so that a mistake could only be intentional deceit:
Why does a 'whole house' protector earth direct lightning strikes without damage? It also uses sufficiently sized (12 AWG or 2 mm) wires to connect 50,000 amps harmlessly to earth. Do they lie when their spec numbers states 50,000 amps? Of course not. They make a claim with numbers. So they are not using junk science reasoning to deceive. Numbers provide perspective and the resulting honesty.

Many assume 2 and 4 mm wires cannot earth direct lightning strikes when it was routine even 100 years ago.

Apparently those church steeples protected by earthing a Franklin lightning rod were really destroyed. Since fables prove nothing can protect from direct lightning. Honesty provided by numbers shows why a 1 mm (ten amp) wire can even earth lightning.

At least have the decency to accurately quote the author and honestly represent his points.

The author then provides other numbers that define direct lightning strikes without damage. Length of a wire to earth (as short as possible) is essential to effective protection. More important than wire thickness is eliminating sharp wire bends. More reasons why adjacent protectors do no protect from and can even make lightning damage to appliances easier. And then the naïve assume nothing can protect from lightning. After all, feelings, deception, and misquotes prove it.

Your saying a 18awg wire carrying 60,000 amps of current will not result in wire damage...