Want adequate sound for home theater without wiring in the walls

T

TJSmoov

Audiophyte
My wife and I recently purchased a new construction home and we are planning on installing a home theater with a projector. We currently watch movies and television on a Sony Bravia 46" TV and use the built in speakers. The sound isn't great but we're totally ok with it. The home will be ready in February and right now we need to plan for the theater and do any wiring pre drywall so we are planning for months down the road. We want the sound to be better than it is now but we don't need anything amazing. I would prefer to not have to pay for speaker wiring through the walls and instead just place a soundbar and subwoofer underneath the screen for adequate sound. Is this ok? I also considered wireless speakers but someone strongly suggested against them. What are the pros and cons of all these possibilities (soundbar/subwoofer, wireless speakers, speaker wiring through the walls)?

Any help is appreciated.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Well, depending on your definition of "adequate", it might work but I wouldn't be satisfied.

Hopefully, you''ve at least got a game plan as to where you want to place your front three speakers and the screen. I just know you planned ahead and had cable wires run to that location, right? Assuming you keep the receiver on that same plane, or even in/on that same piece of furniture you might be OK on that end. The sub can be on that same plane, too. Those pesky wires shouldn't be too obvious. This is exactly what I've done and it works out fine for us.

Now, as for your surrounds, well, I really think you would benefit from having wires run from that central area to about where each of your surrounds will be. But, hey, it's your house. Who am I to dictate to you.

But, I really, really don't think you'll be satisfied with the soundfield that a soundbar provides. I certainly wouldn't.

I do have some questions, though: How do you propose getting video to your projector on the ceiling without running wires? Likewise, how will you get sound from your sources to your receiver without running wires? Are you planning on any Internet connectivity? It seems to me that worrying about speaker wires would be the least of your worries,
 
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ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
Just run the wires run this to each speaker local HDMI Cable, Home Theater Accessories, HDMI Products, Cables, Adapters, Video/Audio Switch, Networking, USB, Firewire, Printer Toner, and more!
one of these to where the receiver and cables boxes will be Amazon.com: Monoprice 2-Gang 5.1 Surround Sound Distribution Wall Plate: Electronics
one of these at each speaker Amazon.com: Monoprice Banana Binding Post Two-Piece Inset Coupler Wall Plate for 1 Speaker: Electronics
this to wear the sub will be Amazon.com : 50 foot Subwoofer Cable, Tartan Cable brand : Subwoofer Cable Wall : Electronics
one of these at the subwoofer Amazon.com: Single RCA Connector Wall Plate for Subwoofer Speaker (White): Everything Else
one of these on the ceiling near the projector and one at the area where the cable box and receiver will be Amazon.com: Datacomm 45-0031-WH Recessed Low Voltage Media Plate with Duplex Receptacle, White: Electronics
one of these from avr to projector Amazon.com : BlueRigger High Speed HDMI Cable with Ethernet (25 ft) - CL3 Rated - supports 3D and Audio Return [Latest HDMI version] : Electronics

and be done with it, if you are building the house it is the perfect time to do it rite, you can do it your self with a cheap stapler and drill, but most electricians will only charge you $100 or so to run it all before the walls are up when they are there doing there rough in...
You won't regret it, then you can put a decent home theater system in and not have wires strung about and you will not have to deal with a sound bar mounted under a projector screen... I would also run the cables and put a box behind the screen for a wall hung tv in case you ever change your mind on the projector...

Easy to spend $300 now than want to do it later when it will cost thousands or be impossible... I love my wires being all integrated and built in...

You could price it all with the conduit, wires, wall plates, and labor and I don't think you would total over $400, really even with the conduit only around $200 in materials depending on room size, if you buy everything yourself and map it all out yourself you will save a little, then just have your electrician throw it in...
 
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BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
I already responded to this over at Projector Central's forums and recommended you here on this. I think you will get more varied responses which run along the lines of 'prewire now or regret it later' for the thought process. If you do go with front of room, under the screen cabinet, then you have some options which can work nicely with some caveats.

I always recommend (strongly) against putting equipment at the front of the room in a home theater setup, but if you 100% block the blinky lights, then you can put gear up there and you wouldn't need to wire in-wall, but can setup a nice 3.1 audio system locally. It may run $180 to have them install wiring for surround speakers, but that is nothing, truly, in the price of your home. So, I would still advise that. On the cheap, you still have a lot of other wiring and conduit which I have recommended which you really must put in place pre-drywall. Of course, I understand that new home construction comes on some sort of budget, but you actually need to have some equal distribution of that budget for things you may want to enjoy over the long haul. The granite countertops are nice, but it'll save you thousands to go with cheap counters (which still work) and that money can go to things which will cost a great deal more to deal with later on. (as an example only)

Of course, it's your home, so your decision is your alone, but I would still actually develop a budget for proper home wiring as hard wired Ethernet and A/V connections are a requirement for reliable and therefore enjoyable, operation.
 
T

TJSmoov

Audiophyte
Thanks for all the advice. I realize I wasn't entirely clear so let me clarify:

Nothing has been done yet, the builder hasn't even broke ground. We are already intending to get wiring/conduit/outlet/hdmi ports done for the projector. The reason I seem to be splitting hairs over something that might be trivial in the long run (speakers) is that we are required to do our wiring through one specific wiring company and they seem to charge a lot. I have a meeting with them tomorrow to discuss the options but right now I only have a list of packages that they offer. The full home theater package costs about $13K and I have no intention of paying that though it does provide everything necessary including equipment. I missed it before but it looks like they do offer a surround sound wire rough in for about $1K which I think we might end up getting based on the advice you all have given. It is also costing $900 to get a couple hdmi wires put in for a wall mounted TV in the family room and based on these numbers I'm assuming the projector wiring will probably also run close to $1K. So we're talking about $3K right here which could be rolled into the mortgage but nevertheless we want to keep down.

So thanks for the advice everyone, it's been really helpful and hopefully this turns out well.
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
I built a lot of houses and if your electrician won't do it for a fair price talk to your alarm guy, or hire an outside tech for the job, I would not pay more than 300 labor everything, map it yourself, buy all the materials and go from there... If your contractor won't bend on something like this you are in for a long painfull build... The houses we built were all around 175 per sq ft and most over 3500 sq ft so nothing too extravagant and if a homeowner came to my office and asked for us to do something like ht wiring, sprinkler stub outs, hot and cold water hose faucets near the garage, ect. I always threw it in... Too many people looking for work to beat your customers up over the little stuff..
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
I am guessing you are going into a planned community and are dealing with a home builder, and not a 'contractor'. This is often the case that the charges given to you are extremely high and it is something which you can go in hard on. A typical rate may be between $60 and $90 per speaker run. Maybe less, maybe a bit more, but not much more. Unless you are in a very high dollar area and in an extravagant home, then I would negotiate hard on those numbers. Because at $900 you may be better off talking to A/V companies or even a decent electrician who may be able to wire the entire theater and then you can repair the drywall and repaint for less.

I would typically charge about $250 in materials (or so) and about $300 in labor to prewire a unfinished home theater space to a projector and a local equipment rack location. Conduit would be a bit more. So, about half of what you are being quoted and I'm in the DC Metro area which is not an inexpensive place to be.

If I were you, I would nail them down on a per-wire charge, or find out how much ONE Ethernet drop is, and how much ONE pair of speakers is. If you do go with a 'under the screen' equipment location then you can get by with just a piece of conduit run to the projector (don't have them run ANY wires!), have an Ethernet jack put near your equipment rack, and then have power at the projector and power at the equipment rack. You can ask for a 'dedicated circuit' which they will sometimes do at a fair price.

In my experience, many of these guys don't know what they are doing and are making a money grab with significantly overpriced cabling and very high labor rates. They will wire for speakers in your ceiling in a theater which is very bad IMO. They won't consult with you and talk about what you want and where things ought to go. They won't talk about treating the room at all, or how lighting should be placed in the room for best results. So, I lean towards perhaps having them do the most minimal job possible and tell them it is due to their ridiculous rates. You can even tell the builder that you absolutely refuse to let them gouge you with such things and will recommend others avoid them as well while such a pricey company is being used.

You may find that they offer a slight bit of leeway. You may also ask if they have multiple companies they use for this type of wiring and work because you feel that the company they are recommending is ridiculously overpriced. You may even want to call a local A/V company to see how much they would charge for a prewire job in a open frame home. Go in with those numbers.

I would say the same thing with your flat panel television locations - They only need to run conduit from the equipment location to the TV location and put power at both places.

You will need the 'multimedia' drop at the equipment locations. That's usually 2 RG6 cables and 2 cat-6 cables. Insist upon cat-6!

Since you are new at this, the tendency is for companies to take advantage, but if you go in with a requirements list and a budget, and put pressure on them to meet your budget instead of them trying to charge you a flat rate, then you have a certain right to make a fuss.

I did the better part of an entire home as a retrofit with a dozen zones of audio and multiple video drops with added networking keypads, and speakers throughout with 5 guys in a single day. About a ten hour day - so 50 hours or so. We went through thousands of feet of wiring, but I want to say that the total was about $4,000-$5,000 for that level of effort as a RETROFIT! If the walls were open we would have been done with the work in half the time or less. A good $1,000 of cabling would never change, but the labor would have been $2,000 or less I would expect.

Just some numbers to consider and some thoughts.

Hey - do you have floor plans you can post or you can link to?
 
tmurnin

tmurnin

Full Audioholic
Given that you're dealing with a home builder rather than a contractor, you may have better luck getting him to give in on upgrades rather than the actual price. Rather than just a home theater rough-in for $1k, negotiate whole-home audio. You'll probably still overpay compared to what you could find on the open market, but right now you may be in a position of just trying to find the best deal possible - not the overall best deal.
 
T

TJSmoov

Audiophyte
Thanks for all the input.

BMXTRIX, we also currently live in and are moving to the DC metro area, Ashburn, VA to be exact. You are correct, we are dealing with a home builder who has specifically told me that this is the only wiring company allowed in pre-drywall. Do you do this work professionally and work in the Ashburn area? If so, would you be willing to give me an estimate for post-drywall work and maybe figure out exactly where we would have to cut holes in the wall? We could probably get you into the model home so that you could actually see the home beyond the floorplan. Of course, this would also require my wife to sign off on doing the work post-drywall which she may not be interested in.

One question, what is the ethernet jack for?

I have my meeting with wiring company today. I wish I had come to these forums sooner but I will definitely take your advice and try to get them to budge on their prices and maybe ask them to just install conduit.

Here is a link to the floorplan: New Roosevelt Home Model in Stonegate, Ashburn, VA - NVHomes

We are planning on putting the theater in the rec room in the basement.

Thanks again for the help.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
I built a lot of houses and if your electrician won't do it for a fair price talk to your alarm guy, or hire an outside tech for the job, I would not pay more than 300 labor everything, map it yourself, buy all the materials and go from there... If your contractor won't bend on something like this you are in for a long painfull build... The houses we built were all around 175 per sq ft and most over 3500 sq ft so nothing too extravagant and if a homeowner came to my office and asked for us to do something like ht wiring, sprinkler stub outs, hot and cold water hose faucets near the garage, ect. I always threw it in... Too many people looking for work to beat your customers up over the little stuff..
+1

Those prices you are quoting are more like the prices to expect when the house is already built and drywall already up.

In other words, it's a rip-off!
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
I am about 15 minutes from where you will be living. I am happy to come by at some point. NV Homes is a premium builder and their basic wiring should include several phone and Ethernet ports which you can choose locations for throughout your home. When I had my last home built by Ryan (NV Homes little sister company) they included certain wiring already, but they allowed me to specify very exact wiring for my needs and I dropped about $5,000 on wiring my home with them pulling all the wiring, but I was on site with my own wire (no discount from them) and with conduit for them to run. It took a better part of the day for them to do it all, but it was significantly more work than what you are looking at dealing with.

Click on the link in my signature and feel free to give me a call or shoot me a email message so this can be discussed outside of this topic.

They are funny about pressuring you for decisions, but I would recommend that you might want to put them off for a week if you can so you are trying to consider things right then and there while 'on the spot'. You may still want to pressure NV Homes about bringing in a outside licensed A/V technician (not likely) or finding out who else they use for that type of work. I found my home build with Brinks Security running the wiring to be expensive, but not outrageous, and their work was solid. But, they were clueless which was a big drawback. They didn't know the whys and wheres of a good and proper installation. I also gained a lot of knowledge about in-wall vs. in-ceiling speakers and when and where they should be used in these homes.

NV is a very good builder though with good quality in my experience.

Give me a call... But, keep asking questions here.
 
T

TJSmoov

Audiophyte
In case anyone's curious, I had my meeting with the wiring company and they basically would not budge much at all. Apparently the builder gets a cut of the money so there isn't too much wiggle room, or so they say. Thanks for the offer BMXTRIX, but I talked to my wife and she would prefer to pay the extra money to get the wiring done pre drywall.

Once again, thanks for everyone's help.

I am about 15 minutes from where you will be living. I am happy to come by at some point. NV Homes is a premium builder and their basic wiring should include several phone and Ethernet ports which you can choose locations for throughout your home. When I had my last home built by Ryan (NV Homes little sister company) they included certain wiring already, but they allowed me to specify very exact wiring for my needs and I dropped about $5,000 on wiring my home with them pulling all the wiring, but I was on site with my own wire (no discount from them) and with conduit for them to run. It took a better part of the day for them to do it all, but it was significantly more work than what you are looking at dealing with.

Click on the link in my signature and feel free to give me a call or shoot me a email message so this can be discussed outside of this topic.

They are funny about pressuring you for decisions, but I would recommend that you might want to put them off for a week if you can so you are trying to consider things right then and there while 'on the spot'. You may still want to pressure NV Homes about bringing in a outside licensed A/V technician (not likely) or finding out who else they use for that type of work. I found my home build with Brinks Security running the wiring to be expensive, but not outrageous, and their work was solid. But, they were clueless which was a big drawback. They didn't know the whys and wheres of a good and proper installation. I also gained a lot of knowledge about in-wall vs. in-ceiling speakers and when and where they should be used in these homes.

NV is a very good builder though with good quality in my experience.

Give me a call... But, keep asking questions here.
 

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