Towers vs Bookshelf/subs

[fmw]

I've done pretty well with sub/sat setups. I still have the 12" B&W sub I used to match with a pair of 805's. They always sounded great but my crossover point was around 100 hz. I agree with Irv that 250hz sounds like an unusual place to crossover. But if works, hey........

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think a lot of guys are in the $2K budget or similar.

1. $1500 for dual subs + $500 for monitors?

2. Or $2,000 for just a pair of towers?

3. Some people think $1,500 for towers + $500 for a single sub is more like it.

I just think given the budget, option #1 is the best.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I've done pretty well with sub/sat setups. I still have the 12" B&W sub I used to match with a pair of 805's. They always sounded great but my crossover point was around 100 hz. I agree with Irv that 250hz sounds like an unusual place to crossover. But if works, hey........

I agree 80-100Hz XO would probably be the norm. Every case is different. I went "down" to 200Hz.

 

[fuzz092888]

I've done pretty well with sub/sat setups. I still have the 12" B&W sub I used to match with a pair of 805's. They always sounded great but my crossover point was around 100 hz. I agree with Irv that 250hz sounds like an unusual place to crossover. But if works, hey........

But you wouldn't say that about a 3 way tower, most likely. It all depends on what the bookshelf can do in the room and how the two interact within the room. That should be what dictates the crossover. However, if the bookshelf dictates a high crossover for the flattest response then the sub must be able to keep up, which many may not be able to as you creep higher. Plus, as irv said, you'll start running into directionality problems which creates placement problems. This all has to be taken into account when matching bookshelves to subwoofers to get the best sound from them, if we're keeping this in the context of having them go toe to toe with a well designed tower, which should have already taken this crossover business into account.

 

[Steve81]

I think a lot of guys are in the $2K budget or similar. And the dilemma is to go w/ a pair of towers w/o subs vs monitors w/ subs. Dual subs for $1500 + monitors for $500? Or $2,000 for just a pair of towers?

One fun example would be the NHT Fours (2400/pr) versus the Classic Threes ($900/pr). The Fours look to cross basically a Three top section to a 10" woofer in a bass reflex box at 125Hz. Conversely you could get the Classic Threes with a Rythmik E15 in gloss black and still have enough left over for some nice looking stands. I'd probably pick the latter and experiment with crossovers in the 80-125Hz range.

 

[Irvrobinson]

One thing is for sure, I can't push the crossover point much above 100Hz with the DD18+, because much to my surprise (when I saw the test data) its frequency response drops like a rock above about 120Hz. Not very impressive, Velodyne. I don't personally see any ill-effects from the roll-off, since I'm using a low-pass filter setting of 80Hz with a 24db/oct slope, but the big Velodyne looks like it's a poor candidate for a small satellite configuration.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

One fun example would be the NHT Fours (2400/pr) versus the Classic Threes ($900/pr). The Fours look to cross basically a Three top section to a 10" woofer in a bass reflex box at 125Hz. Conversely you could get the Classic Threes with a Rythmik E15 in gloss black and still have enough left over for some nice looking stands. I'd probably pick the latter and experiment with crossovers in the 80-125Hz range.

Exactly. This kind of reminds me of building HTPCs. Except easier. Select the best parts and integrate them.

 

[Pyrrho]

Today I have been listening to my TAD 2201 + Funk 18.0.

AVP-A1HD setting: Pure Direct 2.2, 250Hz XO (instead of 80Hz).
Music: Breaking Bad original score (Dave Porter).

There may have been other threads discussing towers vs bookshelf/subs. But I don't think anyone has talked about Pure Direct 2.2 using bookshelf+subs, especially crossing over high @ 250Hz.

We all know that the bass from towers will never compete w/ the likes of Funk Audio, JTR, Seaton, Rythmik, PSA, HSU, Velodyne, JL, etc.

So some people may ask, would bookshelf + dual subs be actually BETTER than using full-range towers?

Could bookshelf+subs be the ultimate "modular" (like RBH's modular) full-range tower?

What about output and dynamics, some may ask? Wouldn't towers have more dynamics/output? Not necessarily especially from 100Hz-20kHz.

So anyway, I am utterly enjoying my bookshelf + subs "modular full-range tower" setup.

I think if someone had a budget of $2.5-3K, it may be best if they spent $2K on dual subs (HSU or PSA) and $500-$1000 on bookshelf, instead of $3K on a pair of towers.

Why placing bookshelf on top of tall subs even make them look like giant towers. For example, the tall PSA XV30f.

I think your principle is fundamentally right, if one sets it up properly. It is most obvious in cases where one is thinking about a set of tower speakers, and then looks at the voice matched bookshelf speakers from the same line, and considers how much cheaper they are, and what sort of subwoofers one can get for the difference. That was my thinking when setting up my home theater, that the tower models of my chosen speaker retailed for $3k, where the bookshelf retailed for only $1.5k. Same tweeter, same midbass driver. The tower had an additional (and larger) woofer that added significantly to the bass, but not as well as $1.5k worth of subwoofers.

 

[fuzz092888]

One thing is for sure, I can't push the crossover point much above 100Hz with the DD18+, because much to my surprise (when I saw the test data) its frequency response drops like a rock above about 120Hz. Not very impressive, Velodyne. I don't personally see any ill-effects from the roll-off, since I'm using a low-pass filter setting of 80Hz with a 24db/oct slope, but the big Velodyne looks like it's a poor candidate for a small satellite configuration.

I remember seeing that on data-bass awhile back. 100hz is actually the F3 for the top end during the 2m ground plane test from the peak at 40. Looking at the graph again, that is extremely disappointing how hard that rolls off above 100hz for a sub that expensive. Not that it isn't excellent within its operating bandwidth.

 

[GranteedEV]

1) If you're using a sub up to 200hz+ you sure as hell better be able to measure and CORRECTLY dial in a crossover
2) Does using $2000 speakers with 8" midwoofers really qualify this?

 

[Irvrobinson]

I remember seeing that on data-bass awhile back. 100hz is actually the F3 for the top end during the 2m ground plane test from the peak at 40. Looking at the graph again, that is extremely disappointing how hard that rolls off above 100hz for a sub that expensive. Not that it isn't excellent within its operating bandwidth.

The DD15 Plus did the same thing, perhaps worse, in the AH review, but I'll be honest and say I didn't pay close attention until I read the DD18 Plus review. In actual use it probably doesn't matter, because either sub has so much headroom at 100Hz you can just EQ the problem away, if you want to, but it does point to GranteedEV's advice that getting the crossover right is critical. I happen to have a set of JBL mini-monitors I use for video. If I get bored sometime soon I'll connect them to the music system in place of the Salon2s, set up the OmniMic V2, and see what I can do. I'm guessing that even if the DD18 Plus needs +6db of boost at 150Hz to make things work it'll still out-loud the JBLs.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

1) If you're using a sub up to 200hz+ you sure as hell better be able to measure and CORRECTLY dial in a crossover
2) Does using $2000 speakers with 8" midwoofers really qualify this?

Okay, fine, I'll use 125Hz XO then.

 

[TLS Guy]

Today I have been listening to my TAD 2201 + Funk 18.0.

AVP-A1HD setting: Pure Direct 2.2, 250Hz XO (instead of 80Hz).
Music: Breaking Bad original score (Dave Porter).

There may have been other threads discussing towers vs bookshelf/subs. But I don't think anyone has talked about Pure Direct 2.2 using bookshelf+subs, especially crossing over high @ 250Hz.

We all know that the bass from towers will never compete w/ the likes of Funk Audio, JTR, Seaton, Rythmik, PSA, HSU, Velodyne, JL, etc.

So some people may ask, would bookshelf + dual subs be actually BETTER than using full-range towers?

Could bookshelf+subs be the ultimate "modular" (like RBH's modular) full-range tower?

What about output and dynamics, some may ask? Wouldn't towers have more dynamics/output? Not necessarily especially from 100Hz-20kHz.

So anyway, I am utterly enjoying my bookshelf + subs "modular full-range tower" setup.

I think if someone had a budget of $2.5-3K, it may be best if they spent $2K on dual subs (HSU or PSA) and $500-$1000 on bookshelf, instead of $3K on a pair of towers.

Why placing bookshelf on top of tall subs even make them look like giant towers. For example, the tall PSA XV30f.

There are a host of problems with that plan.

At 250 Hz you are in the range where the ear is sensitive to response aberration.

A crossover in that range needs to be custom. For one thing you are right in the middle of the area of baffle step compensation. So imposing another crossover there really upsets the apple cart.

In a small room small bookshelves crossed over at the F3 point should work well. For instance your sealed ATC bookshelves should give an excellent account, crossed over at 90 Hz, with second order high pass and fourth order low pass. However the small driver will still be power limited but no severely so at that cross over.

In essence you are making the case for true full range speakers, of which there are precious few good examples.

In my system I limit the power to the 7" mid drivers, by having one of the 10" drivers carry the baffle step compensation in an active arrangement. Both 10" drivers share duties equally below 60 Hz. One of the nice things about an active set up is that you can send more than one signal to an individual driver.

My best advice for subs, is to always set the crossover at the -3db point of the main speakers. That will work best in most situations. If the main speakers have second order roll off like a sealed alignment so much the better.

If the mains are capable just fill in the lower end and don't roll off the mains with a crossover. In other words set them to full range.

I have now played with quite a few systems with subs. To me those systems are incapable of delivering that perfect true to life bass.

If you want do pursue higher crossovers, assuming the sub is capable, then you need to get acquainted with mini DSP or design custom active crossovers. There is no good passive solution for what you are trying to do.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I have now played with quite a few systems with subs. To me those systems are incapable of delivering that perfect true to life bass.

What subwoofers exactly have you heard?

Have you experienced any of the true-to-life-bass subs from Funk, Seaton, JTR, Rythmik, PSA, SVS, etc?

I bet five Funk high-efficiency monitors atop five Funk 18.0 unpowered subs would sound quite true-to-life. I might just do that when I get my new house.

 

[3db]

I think budget considerations, room acoustics, and room correction facilities need to be taken into account to say one combo is better than another. I love the sound of my PSB towers for two channel music and I run them full range while listening to music in 2 channel mode, no sub. They are very coherent and image extremely well.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think budget considerations, room acoustics, and room correction facilities need to be taken into account to say one combo is better than another. I love the sound of my PSB towers for two channel music and I run them full range while listening to music in 2 channel mode, no sub. They are very coherent and image extremely well.

Case to case for sure. Some people prefer more and some prefer less bass.

 

[cpp]

Case to case for sure. Some people prefer more and some prefer less bass.

got that right, that's way we are all different, have difference taste in music, movies and different rooms not to mention budget or wife's

 

[connieflyer]

Agree with 3db about listenening to 2 channel music but run mine towers crossed over at 80hz to sub. I have lived with the PSB's for quite awhile and they do sound quite good to me. Shopped for PSB Golds with a friend and found them better but not much considering the price difference. A purist I am not, (if I had the funds would probably be one). I have spent many an hour visiting speaker shops and can say that at the end of the day coming home and listening to these psb's I don't regret spending less.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Case to case for sure. Some people prefer more and some prefer less bass.

This is actually a point worth discussing. For most pop, rock, and some jazz recordings there never was a live performance to compare to. All bets are off about "accuracy" for movies. Anyone who has the slightest knowledge about how sound mixing and foley work is done for movies knows "accuracy" is a meaningless concept. Even for live acoustic music, unless the music was played in a very large venue you still get a different sound by simply sitting in different places in the venue. When listening to live acoustic jazz in night clubs I've been known to force my wife to change tables, because I didn't like the sound at the original one. Fortunately for me she's a musician, so she doesn't think I'm daft. Even with supposedly purist recordings, something as minor as mic placement can affect the spectral balance, and recording engineers know that. Unless you made the recording, unless you know the original venue, "accuracy" is just an audiophile dream. My point is that preference is not a dirty word.

That said, I still am a big proponent of going for as flat a frequency response curve as one can achieve at one's listening seat. Otherwise you are coloring every recording. If that's your preference, whatever, it's your system.

 

[lsiberian]

You're plan is not unfounded. Chris used this approach for his grand speaker design. I know it was never delivered, but he used the JL Audio 8w7 with the Infinity MRS and HiVi RTIII ribbon. It does give me a fun idea for my next speaker build though. I'm thinking I'll use an 8" sub build and couple it with my top two drivers in my current build(which is nearly complete).