There's no such thing as digital

[haraldo]

There's no such thing as digital: some interesting reading here

There's no such thing as digital: A conversation with Charles Hansen, Gordon Rankin, and Steve Silberman | AudioStream

 

[fmw]

I thought we finished with this jitter nonsense 15 years ago. Some people just can't give it up.

 

[shadyJ]

It will never be finished as long as there is money that can be made off of it.

 

[ratso]

I thought we finished with this jitter nonsense 15 years ago. Some people just can't give it up.

well you are wrong. you can hear jitter from across the room. my wife heard it in the kitchen, with the dishwasher running. just ask anyone over at stereophile.

 

[fmw]

well you are wrong. you can hear jitter from across the room. my wife heard it in the kitchen, with the dishwasher running. just ask anyone over at stereophile.

You are preaching to someone who has actually done the bias controlled listening tests. Jitter isn't audible except to anyone except believers like Stereophile. Neither Stereophile nor your wife would be able to detect it in a bias controlled test. I'm not wrong.

 

[ratso]

You are preaching to someone who has actually done the bias controlled listening tests. Jitter isn't audible except to anyone except believers like Stereophile. Neither Stereophile nor your wife would be able to detect it in a bias controlled test. I'm not wrong.

sorry. i would have thought the mile wide sarcasm would have freed me from the internet required smiley when making a joke.

edit: but i guess i do actually sound like everyone that actually believes that nonsense come to think of it.

 

[lsiberian]

You are preaching to someone who has actually done the bias controlled listening tests. Jitter isn't audible except to anyone except believers like Stereophile. Neither Stereophile nor your wife would be able to detect it in a bias controlled test. I'm not wrong.

With "proper" bias control I could actually demonstrate jitter. Where are all my jittery friends at now. I guess all that work in digital logic was for not.

 

[fmw]

"Demonstrating" jitter was the hard part. We had a physicist in our group that figured out how to measure it and wrote some software to do it. We were able to measure it. We weren't able to hear it, though. The numbers are in pico seconds. That is a very small slice of time and, according to the physicist, beyond the time required for our nerves to fire. He predicted it would be inaudible for that reason before we ran the listening tests.

 

[fmw]

sorry. i would have thought the mile wide sarcasm would have freed me from the internet required smiley when making a joke.

edit: but i guess i do actually sound like everyone that actually believes that nonsense come to think of it.

Sorry, I misunderstood. The beginning of the end of audiophilia for me was a review in Stereophile magazine comparing the "sound" of small collection of digital cables. Since the transmission of digital data is such a mature technology, it was so counter intutitive to me I just had to test it. We started a two year bias controlled testing project with the digital cables, followed by analog cables. By the time we were finished with the project, there wasn't a speck of audiophilia left in me. I guess it shows.

 

[lsiberian]

Sorry, I misunderstood. The beginning of the end of audiophilia for me was a review in Stereophile magazine comparing the "sound" of small collection of digital cables. Since the transmission of digital data is such a mature technology, it was so counter intutitive to me I just had to test it. We started a two year bias controlled testing project with the digital cables, followed by analog cables. By the time we were finished with the project, there wasn't a speck of audiophilia left in me. I guess it shows.

You're still an audiophile. If you weren't you wouldn't care.

 

[ratso]

Sorry, I misunderstood. The beginning of the end of audiophilia for me was a review in Stereophile magazine comparing the "sound" of small collection of digital cables. Since the transmission of digital data is such a mature technology, it was so counter intutitive to me I just had to test it. We started a two year bias controlled testing project with the digital cables, followed by analog cables. By the time we were finished with the project, there wasn't a speck of audiophilia left in me. I guess it shows.

couldn't agree more. when i list the things i'm proud NOT to be (racist, homophobe, etc) i always include "audiophile" on that list.

 

[j_garcia]

There is no such thing as time either, yet it often rules much of what we do.

 

[fmw]

You're still an audiophile. If you weren't you wouldn't care.

I'm still a music lover, musician and audio lover. I use my home theater almost every day. I fall asleep every night to the sound of recorded music. But I'm an anti-audiophile. When I hear people talk about the sound of wire or jitter or descriptions of the sound of audio components with words like pace and rhythm, I cringe.

 

[lsiberian]

I'm still a music lover, musician and audio lover. I use my home theater almost every day. I fall asleep every night to the sound of recorded music. But I'm an anti-audiophile. When I hear people talk about the sound of wire or jitter or descriptions of the sound of audio components with words like pace and rhythm, I cringe.

Just understand if you want high highs you must staple the power cable to the ceiling. I recommend brass stapling for better brass sound too.

 

[haraldo]

I'm still a music lover, musician and audio lover. I use my home theater almost every day. I fall asleep every night to the sound of recorded music. But I'm an anti-audiophile. When I hear people talk about the sound of wire or jitter or descriptions of the sound of audio components with words like pace and rhythm, I cringe.

Now you're talking
I honestly only want one thing, to sit down and enjoy the music, and experience those magical moments..... preferably together with my wife
All this technique, constant tweaking, pursuing the gold at the end of the rainbow, speakers that can play louder, better, less distortion... what for.... constantly being unhappy with what you have?

In the end music doesn't matter really, it's the pleasure of music that doesn't count.... better be happy with what you have

If you look to a company like Benchmark media, I believe there's absolutely no snake oil things there.... yes?
With their Benchmark DAC1 they claimed to have a product where jitter was a "non issue" at all
Now with DAC2, they even improved the jitter rejection, and as far as I understand, Benchmark really don't "improve" the products unless they can really perceive an audible difference, at least that's how I understand their engineers.
Or do benchmark improve the jitter rejection just due to marketing purposes?

Honestly I don't know anything anymore, I will just trust my ears....

There's almost always music in our home

 

[cpp]

I saw this on another site that sums it up

Jitter doesnt really exist.

It's just a thought up bogeyman for digital to enable hi-fi dealers to cast doubt in ordinary folks minds to get them to stump up cash for gear they dont need.

Deep down, you know its true but you have to appear to be part of the herd that believes in it, otherwise you will get stoned in the street by the golden eared audio-Taliban.

Just forget about it

 

[3db]

I'm still a music lover, musician and audio lover. I use my home theater almost every day. I fall asleep every night to the sound of recorded music. But I'm an anti-audiophile. When I hear people talk about the sound of wire or jitter or descriptions of the sound of audio components with words like pace and rhythm, I cringe.

You and me both.

 

[ratso]

Now you're talking
I honestly only want one thing, to sit down and enjoy the music, and experience those magical moments..... preferably together with my wife
All this technique, constant tweaking, pursuing the gold at the end of the rainbow, speakers that can play louder, better, less distortion... what for.... constantly being unhappy with what you have?

In the end music doesn't matter really, it's the pleasure of music that doesn't count.... better be happy with what you have

If you look to a company like Benchmark media, I believe there's absolutely no snake oil things there.... yes?
With their Benchmark DAC1 they claimed to have a product where jitter was a "non issue" at all
Now with DAC2, they even improved the jitter rejection, and as far as I understand, Benchmark really don't "improve" the products unless they can really perceive an audible difference, at least that's how I understand their engineers.
Or do benchmark improve the jitter rejection just due to marketing purposes?

Honestly I don't know anything anymore, I will just trust my ears....

There's almost always music in our home

i think the problem with companies like benchmark, who seem to be very engineer driven is that they get trapped into needing to play the same BS marketing game of "higher sampling" and "less jitter" if they want to stay competitive and sell any dac's. for a long time benchmark's dac was 24/96 when everybody else's was 24/192 and it measured just as well as the competition. (so just be smart and buy the older model for less money).

 

[fmw]

Just understand if you want high highs you must staple the power cable to the ceiling. I recommend brass stapling for better brass sound too.

Imagine the advantage of having cathedral ceilings!!!

 

[fmw]

I saw this on another site that sums it up

To be fair, jitter does exist and is measurable. But the delays are in pico seconds and are not even close to being audible. If jitter were audible, it would be bad enough that data transmission would be impossible. The audiophile community has used it to justify things like expensive digital cables.