Bryston Model T Floorstanding Speakers

[Stedanko]

LOL take Barton on then. The Synchrony One and Platinum T8 both punched well above their price points too guess he doesn't have a clue either. Maybe you can teach him a trick or two?
Thanks for the laughs!

 

[MinusTheBear]

LOL take Barton on then. The Synchrony One and Platinum T8 both punched well above their price points too guess he doesn't have a clue either. Maybe you can teach him a trick or two?
Thanks for the laughs!

Copying and pasting experts in a field when you yourself don't even have a clue of what they are even saying doesn't do you any favors or make you look smarter. It's the opposite.

 

[monkish54]

Firstly, I find it absolutely humorous that you (Stedanko) keep mentioning designers who are pro wide polar pattern, tapered power response, and flat listening window--yet you don't like the Salon 2...the speaker that was literally designed around the idea of tapered power response, flat listening window, very wide polar to ensure VER, and lack of compression.

The irony of the argument between you and Bear is that I, and I'm pretty sure Bear, agree that all of the above (wide polar, flat listening window, etc) are good goals, but you keep posting a listening window response and calling it a power response. These are two different measurements. The listening window is a total of 5 measurments summed: On-axis, 15 degrees off-axis left, 15 degrees off-axis right, 15 degrees off-axis in verticle plane upwards, 15 degrees off-axis in vertical plane downwards. This is supposed to give the user an idea of how the speaker performs as far as direct sound is concerned.

Power response is a series of measurements taken 360 degrees around the speaker. This is the total sound radiated into the room. The research shows people find a tapered power response to sound most realistic. This is supposed to determine how the speaker performs if the user is listening in the extreme farfield where a great deal of reflected sound will be heard by the user. If I sit 2 feet from my speakers, I couldn't care less about the power response as I will be hearing mostly direct sound. If anything, from 2 feet away I care about first reflection.

 

[Stedanko]

Firstly, I find it absolutely humorous that you (Stedanko) keep mentioning designers who are pro wide polar pattern, tapered power response, and flat listening window--yet you don't like the Salon 2...

The Salon measures impeccably but as I mentioned it is a very sterile and emotionless speaker. I respect it very much and admire it but it's "sound" was not for me. Most amplifiers may measure extremely well but I am sure we can agree they do not all sound the same. While the Bryston and Revel et al may have similar design goals they certainly do not all sound the same.

Power response is a series of measurements taken 360 degrees around the speaker. This is the total sound radiated into the room. The research shows people find a tapered power response to sound most realistic. This is supposed to determine how the speaker performs if the user is listening in the extreme farfield where a great deal of reflected sound will be heard by the user. If I sit 2 feet from my speakers, I couldn't care less about the power response as I will be hearing mostly direct sound. If anything, from 2 feet away I care about first reflection.

Of course sitting nearfield will lower the importance of off-axis response as long as the first reflection point is treated but one would most certainly not sit 2 feet away from a large multispeaker system as the FR would not sum properly that is you will not get flat summation. Neither of the 2 speakers being discussed here sound optimal until one is least 8 feet from them.
The most "realistic" sounding speaker will have reduced off-axis frequency response variations.

This is supposed to determine how the speaker performs if the user is listening in the extreme farfield where a great deal of reflected sound will be heard by the user.

No not in the extreme farfield but even at the minimum distance for flat summation reflected sound will have as great an impact on what you hear as the on-axis sound will. Floyd Toole has gone so far as to say a stereo recording listened to on speakers outside with no reflections or reverberant sound cannot sound realistic. You are sorely underestimating the importance of reflections contribution to what will sound realistic and what will not.

The research shows people find a tapered power response to sound most realistic.

No this statement is quite right. The research shows the most realistic sounding speaker to have
smooth, extended frequency response and without exaggerated high frequencies, both on-axis and off-axis as well as minimal roll-off in power response. The smoothness is a very important factor speakers that change amount of output at different frequencies, very common, will sound disturbingly coloured.
The original Salon required a rear tweeter in order to have a "proper" power response whilst the newer Salon did not require this. Measurements out to 75 degrees that I have posted will give a very good indication of typical in room response. I have emailed Bryston to see if they have further graphs not yet published. One would think so since they had unfettered access to an anechoic chamber.

 

[Stedanko]

Just received this graph. 400 measurements were taken 200 horizontal and 200 vertical.

 

[PENG]

It's personal preference. Nothing more. Some will like and some will dislike. It's the same with any brand of speakers.

The Klipsch KL650-THX has a listening window of +/-1dB (AH and HTM), which is better than just about any speaker out there, except the NHT Absolute Zero, which is also about +/-1dB (HTM), but +/-3dB (S+V). The KL650 is also THX Ultra2 certified, which means it has smooth off-axis response.

But measurements are not everything, especially from just a single 3rd party. Let's wait for another source like AH or Stereophile.

One person's opinion about the Bryston sounding better than anything else is just personal opinion, nothing more.

I agree with that to a point. Now wonder I like the 802D so much.

 

[PENG]

No the Bryston do not sound better than everything else. Of course there are better speakers but I have not owned or heard anything remotely close to their price range that can do what they do. I would take them in a hearbeat over the Revels or Aerial 20T but the KEF 207/2 would require quite a bit of thought but then the KEFs are much more expensive than $6495.
Many people do not trust their own ears and require the validation a TAS or Stereophile review can bring. Let's hope there are reviews in the works.
We can also hope that some folks stating their perceived truth might actually someday get to hear these. Pretty hard to take someone seriously deriving an opinion from measurements rather than actually living with the speakers being discussed.

That's fair, first people need to see some measurements by a credible 3rd party, then they need to see more than just one review and need to see reviews that compare them to those people learnt to trust as accurate, or neutral/transparent, or just nice sounding speakers, subjective or not. I would think $ wise once it gets over the couple thousand dollar mark, it is possible for a speaker to sound as good as a 10,000 one.

 

[PENG]

Firstly, I find it absolutely humorous that you (Stedanko) keep mentioning designers who are pro wide polar pattern, tapered power response, and flat listening window--yet you don't like the Salon 2...the speaker that was literally designed around the idea of tapered power response, flat listening window, very wide polar to ensure VER, and lack of compression.

The irony of the argument between you and Bear is that I, and I'm pretty sure Bear, agree that all of the above (wide polar, flat listening window, etc) are good goals, but you keep posting a listening window response and calling it a power response. These are two different measurements. The listening window is a total of 5 measurments summed: On-axis, 15 degrees off-axis left, 15 degrees off-axis right, 15 degrees off-axis in verticle plane upwards, 15 degrees off-axis in vertical plane downwards. This is supposed to give the user an idea of how the speaker performs as far as direct sound is concerned.

Power response is a series of measurements taken 360 degrees around the speaker. This is the total sound radiated into the room. The research shows people find a tapered power response to sound most realistic. This is supposed to determine how the speaker performs if the user is listening in the extreme farfield where a great deal of reflected sound will be heard by the user. If I sit 2 feet from my speakers, I couldn't care less about the power response as I will be hearing mostly direct sound. If anything, from 2 feet away I care about first reflection.

Guess you and bear are not pleased and reacting to it when someone is telling you certain things you guys and other knowledgeable people had already stated or even emphasized in the past while not addressing some of the stuff pointed out to him that he might have misunderstood, mistaken or simply incorrectly stated.. To me, lots of those published stuff are somewhere between provable facts and opinions, including those authored by reputable people in the field with relevant PhD degrees, so one has to read carefully for sure.

 

[Irvrobinson]

The Salon measures impeccably but as I mentioned it is a very sterile and emotionless speaker. I respect it very much and admire it but it's "sound" was not for me. Most amplifiers may measure extremely well but I am sure we can agree they do not all sound the same. While the Bryston and Revel et al may have similar design goals they certainly do not all sound the same.

Actually, we have a lot of problems proving that solid state amplifiers operating within their design parameters sound different, so much so that a lot of people around here think they do indeed sound the same. Personally, I lean towards the feeling that they are different, but those differences manifest themselves more in listening fatigue that any ability to pick them out in even a single-blinded comparison test. But we all agree that speakers are another matter.

What does "very sterile and emotionless" mean? Your statement implies that there is a loss somewhere in the spectrum, and that loss should be measurable, otherwise you could just be experiencing a room or set-up artifact. What sort of loss would result in lack of emotion - a lack of a bump in the 80Hz range? Or perhaps an in-room dip of some sort?

 

[Irvrobinson]

To me, lots of those published stuff are somewhere between provable facts and opinions, including those authored by reputable people in the field with relevant PhD degrees, so one has to read carefully for sure.

I agree, the way data is interpreted is sometimes as important as the presentation. Research projects have agendas too.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Now wonder I like the 802D so much.

Because there's actually a lot to like? The 802D2 is not my favorite speaker, but it has some very strong points. I can easily see that to a person with different preferences than mine it could be viewed as awesome, and I know someone who feels exactly that way.

 

[gene]

LOL take Barton on then. The Synchrony One and Platinum T8 both punched well above their price points too guess he doesn't have a clue either. Maybe you can teach him a trick or two?
Thanks for the laughs!

2nd request, please post some images of your room and your speakers. It would help give people a clearer picture of your experiences. Thanks.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I agree with that to a point. Now wonder I like the 802D so much.

Because there's actually a lot to like? The 802D2 is not my favorite speaker, but it has some very strong points. I can easily see that to a person with different preferences than mine it could be viewed as awesome, and I know someone who feels exactly that way.

It is simply just a one guys's subjective opinion. It's perfectly okay.

No more gravitas than some guy saying he thinks the DefTech BP7000SC and RBH T2 sound better than the 802D.

No more gravitas than another guy saying he heard the Bryston and saying his $600 EMP or $300 P363 sound "more neutral" or "more accurate" the $10,000 Bryston.

No more gravitas than some guys saying JTR/Seaton/HE speakers sounding better than Bryston, Revel, KEF, TAD, etc, even without a single 3rd party measurement to account for.

It is simply just some guys' subjective opinions. Nothing more.

 

[exlabdriver]

Many thanks to 3db & Stedanko for bringing some balance & first hand knowledge & experiences of the M Ts to this thread.

Sted: Unfortunately it seems that your posts are not to be believed as photos providing proof of your ownership of these fine units are now required to establish credibility here...

TAM

 

[Stedanko]

Many thanks to 3db & Stedanko for bringing some balance & first hand knowledge & experiences of the M Ts to this thread.

Sted: Unfortunately it seems that your posts are not to be believed as photos providing proof of your ownership of these fine units are now required to establish credibility here...

TAM

That's quite funny having to prove ownership. Yes I own them.

 

[fuzz092888]

Why's that? This is the internet. Any Joe Schmoe can jump online and claim just about anything. It shouldn't come as a surprise that when making claims in just about any medium, some form of proof or credibility needs to be established.

Also, thanks for the pic. Cheers.

That's quite funny having to prove ownership. Yes I own them.

 

[Stedanko]

Why's that? This is the internet. Any Joe Schmoe can jump online and claim just about anything. It shouldn't come as a surprise that when making claims in just about any medium, some form of proof or credibility needs to be established.

Also, thanks for the pic. Cheers.

You are most welcome.

 

[fredk]

That's quite funny having to prove ownership. Yes I own them.

Welcome to audioholics. I don't recall many other threads in which the poster was required to prove ownership via pictures. There was some ugliness between Axiom and Audioholics and you are seeing the fallout here.

Hope you enjoy your Brystons.

Don't expect any love here...

 

[gtpsuper24]

Many thanks to 3db & Stedanko for bringing some balance & first hand knowledge & experiences of the M Ts to this thread.

Sted: Unfortunately it seems that your posts are not to be believed as photos providing proof of your ownership of these fine units are now required to establish credibility here..

I wonder if you would even care about "balance and first hand knowledge" if this was some other speaker that had no association with Axiom?

This is a Bryston speaker not a Axiom speaker so i'm not sure why the Axiom guys give a damn about whats being discussed here. Theres plenty of bashing threads with many other brands but I don't see you guys chiming in on those asking for balance and experiences. Even if they have experience with something you guys still complain if someone gives a negative opinion.

I wonder if you all would attack the poster if he had negatives to say about the Bryston. You would just acuse him of being a troll and creating a thread just to bash a wonderful company, blah blah.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

A few years ago when I first auditioned the B+W 800D and 802D, I posted on AH that I thought my Definitive BP7000SC sounded much better than the 800D + 802D.

It was just my personal opinion, nothing more.

Obviously, it does not mean that the BP7000SC is better than the 800D + 802D.

Yet most people seemed offended by my personal opinion. It was just one personal opinion, nothing more.

It's the same thing here with one person saying he thinks the Bryston sounds better to him than the Revel and KEF, etc.

Obviously, it does not mean that the Bryston is better than the Salon2 + 207/2. It was just one personal opinion, nothing more. It's really no big deal.