Need help with sound issues on my system

[ematthews]

Hello
I have had my system for a while now. I am really into my Hifi 2 channel stuff but this surround sound has me at a loss. Here is the problem.
My system
Onkyo TX-sr805 rec
PS3 as my media source
Klipsch rf 82 towers
Klipsch rf 62 center
Martin Logan Grotto sub
Panasonic 54 Plasma
Large room is about 28x18 or so. Tile floors but has a lot of thick throw rugs. Semi vaulted ceilings.

I have done the automated sound calibration as well as a self set up.
Problem is with Blue ray movies. Although its also a smaller problem on DVD as well.
The sound is so loud that I can not hear them talking too much. Example is on the latest Batman movie last night.. I had to keep turning the volume up to hear them talk and then back down with the scenes got loud. Its an issue because the contrast is so big it makes watching a movie less enjoyable..
I have tried different settings on both the PS3 and the 805.
Any advise? Just looking for a more balanced sound. Thanks
Maybe it's time to upgrade the old receiver.

 

[jotham]

I have the same receiver and I don't think the issue is in the receiver. I think the levels on some Blu-Rays are just too dynamic for the typical setup and room plan. My room is poorly designed so lots of speaker output reflects everywhere.

The first thing you could try is the Re-EQ function (thx?) which may take some of the harshness out of the soundtrack but probably won't address the dialogue level issues you are referring to.

The next thing I would try is a temporary change of your center channel (see page 68 of the manual) in a offending blu-ray. The majority of dialogue typically comes from the center channel so boosting that level up might bring the dialogue more in level with the other sound effects improving intelligibility while maintaining bombast.

If the boost in center channel helps the overall levels, then you can make that change universal by adjusting the speaker level permanently via page 90 of your manual. Truthfully, there are so many ways to change the sound it's easier to screw things up then improve them You can get super fine-tuned in terms of changing levels for each kind of input but I think if the center channel change helps, that may be the way to go.

Lastly, you could follow one of the room setup guides here on Audioholics and that may control reverberation which probably contributes to the level problems. That's too "audiophile" for me at the moment

There is also a late night mode but that only works with dolby digital sources and lots of blu-rays are encoded with DTS so that's of less utility.

good luck!

Jotham

 

[hizzaah]

Yup, what he said. I've grown used to bumping my center up a few dB after the auto setup has finished. Just enough to bring dialog up in movies/tv. Too much and yore center sound will start to stick out and it will ruin your immersion.

Good luck!

 

[TLS Guy]

You have what I know to be a common problem.

The HT environment is a very difficult one for speakers. I think your issue is probably multifactrorial.

From your description, I suspect your room is live, and may well benefit from acoustic treatment.

By far the biggest issue is speakers, especially the center speaker. Frankly, I'm yet the hear any commercial center speaker that I would rate even passable.

I have agonized and spent more time on my center speaker than I care to admit to.

Now your speakers all have their crossovers right in a key part of the speech discrimination band. Especially for a center speaker, 1500 Hz is absolutely the worst place to put a crossover. Also I do not buy that turning an MTM on its side is innocent. I have been investigatig, and I will state categorically that placing an MTM on its side should never be tolerated. The polar response has absolutely everything wrong about it. It maximizes room ceiling reflections and interactions, and gives very poor uneven sound distribution to the listening area. I'm going to stick, my neck out and say categorically if you do that, you have a compromised set up and seriously so.

The next issue is one I have been highlighting of late, is Q. Unfortunately speakers with high Q and even those with a what has been previously Q in an acceptable range are not ideal for HT. It really requires speakers to be truly highly damped to not interfere with speech discrimination. It really covers speech if speakers are of the resonant variety, which ported speakers are by definition.

Now I'm going to really upset people, but I don't think you can make a truly great reference HT system using ported speakers and that includes the subs,

In my reference system I have no reflex loaded ported speakers, and I think that is a crucial design parameter.

The next issue is that I think the mix of many BD discs may well not be optimal. That may well be because a lot of those very expensive speakers systems in the Hollywood production studios, may not actually be very good. I suspect from the pictures I have seen of them, a lot may be very nasty shouty speakers. I have had a film critic who gets to premier events in these studios on a regular basis. He prefers what he hears here by a big margin. I have a suspicion, the dialog may be mixed a bit low because of shouty monitors.

I have this rig set so that dialog is natural and intelligible with a natural balance. This has been a big undertaking. Even so I can have visitors who are a little hard of hearing. One of our close friends has meniere's disease.

Since I use my rig more for music and especially opera, I do not want my center loud even by 1 db. I hate having to go the menu to alter this, so I have a cheater knob on one of my main control panels that allows me to alter the center channel instantly at will, without out going to any menus or set up screens

This issue is not confined to home HT either. My son and daughter in law recently went to Skyfall at the Odeon Leicester Square. This has always been the UK's flagship theater for audio. They paid extra for seats that were said to have the best audio in the theater. They told me they could not hear most of the dialog. They said is was covered by over resonant sound. My son is well familiar with my obsession with non resonant reproduction, and is certain those were not low Q speakers.

This whole issue needs looking at with much more rigor and science. It is an issue that in my book makes the vast majority of home and professional systems poor for a really good movie experience.

I know this is a harsh verdict and will prove controversial, but I really believe it to be the current and unacceptable state of affairs.

 

[lsiberian]

The 05 series version of autosetup did seem to struggle with getting the center at the right level. I suggest you run it 3 db hot and see if that fixes it for you.

I think ported systems can be excellent and have heard numerous setups that were ported and sounded terrific. Of course I say that running a sealed system, but the last speakers I had a friend buy were ported ones that were very well engineered.

 

[ImcLoud]

I agree with boosting the center, I balance dont use the eq software with my avr's I just balance everything with my spl meter, then boost the center 2-4db to taste, and I run the sub -3-5 with tv and +3 to 5 with movies and some tv {action-e stuff}

 

[hrtprblms]

Bravo sir. I have been in disarray since the arrival of my 5.1 turned into a 7.1 recently and always swapping center speakers and dual center speakers in series/and or parallel. The drastic difference in volume from voice to booming FX sounds has plagued me as well.

Something I would like to comment on is sound at Disney World. For anyone who has been on any ride or specifically The American Adventure; the voices are lifelike very natural and balanced. Horned tweeters for me personally feel to sharp and on the high side. While dome tweeters feel to warm. Not sure what Disney has as a set up I'm left searching.

 

[bobnegi]

My personnal axe to grind is all about the centre channel as well. You would think a movie with a budget of $200 Million would spend a little on making sure you can here the dialogue! Drives me crazy. But, through much trail and error concerning center channel speakers, angle speaker is at, vertical or horizontal position, nearer to me or further...

Can they just hire sound tech's that have not spent their collective lives listening to music at ear bleeding levels. And remember Mr. Sound engineer, just because it sounds good to your half deaf ears, and perpetually stoned mind, does not mean that it actually sounds good to the rest of us

There, I feel better already

 

[Nestor]

Some receivers have dynamic range compression, sometimes called "night mode". If yours has it, give it a try. Obviously, it won't cure acoustic issues presented by your room, but it may help.

 

[TLS Guy]

My personnal axe to grind is all about the centre channel as well. You would think a movie with a budget of $200 Million would spend a little on making sure you can here the dialogue! Drives me crazy. But, through much trail and error concerning center channel speakers, angle speaker is at, vertical or horizontal position, nearer to me or further...

Can they just hire sound tech's that have not spent their collective lives listening to music at ear bleeding levels. And remember Mr. Sound engineer, just because it sounds good to your half deaf ears, and perpetually stoned mind, does not mean that it actually sounds good to the rest of us

There, I feel better already

There is nothing wrong with the sound techs. You have a lousy center, like most. I have zero problems with understanding dialog. There is no shout and speech and music are excellent. This is on both my systems that use a center, and there is no boost of the dialog. For that matter I have no issues with my 2.0 system either.

One of my systems uses a single 4" full range driver that is a 53 year old design!

Fuzz has just installed one I sold him.

 

[Pyrrho]

There is nothing wrong with the sound techs. You have a lousy center, like most. I have zero problems with understanding dialog. There is no shout and speech and music are excellent. This is on both my systems that use a center, and there is no boost of the dialog. For that matter I have no issues with my 2.0 system either.

One of my systems uses a single 4" full range driver that is a 53 year old design!

Fuzz has just installed one I sold him.

I agree that the problem is likely speakers. But I don't think one needs to go with a full range speaker (though if people want to do that, they can). I use Aurum Cantus Leisure 2SE speakers (original U.S. version) for all channels other than subwoofer. I have properly set the levels and have sensibly located the speakers. The dialog is crystal clear, unless the actor mumbles. Then his mumbling is crystal clear.

There are a couple of things. First, most people don't spend enough of their budget on speakers. They waste it on electronics that don't improve the sound, or on wires that don't do anything extra for them. They also don't usually bother buying a speaker for the center that is the equal of the other front speakers. I use identical speakers, identically oriented. So other than being in a different location in the room, they sound identical. I will never go back to a speaker that is "voice matched" and designed for center channel use.

And, of course, if people's preferred speakers are not good at reproducing sound clearly, then the dialog will not be clear, along with everything else. If one's preferred speaker is unable to reproduce dialog accurately, it isn't reproducing music accurately either.

I never need to compress the dynamic range and I never need to alter the proper channel balance. The dialog is crystal clear. If it is not in someone else's case, they probably have done a poor job of selecting speakers.

 

[Nestor]

FWIW, in a THX theatre, I found the dialogue in Dark Knight Rises to be less than optimal.

 

[bobnegi]

Right you are of course, it must be a bad centre channel that is the only explanation why movie A has clear dialogue, and movie B does not. Must be the equipment

Cheers

 

[hyghwayman]

Adding a quality sub and raising my crossover from 80 to 100 made a big difference for me.

 

[Pyrrho]

Right you are of course, it must be a bad centre channel that is the only explanation why movie A has clear dialogue, and movie B does not. Must be the equipment

Cheers

It can be a variety of things, such as improper settings, which can matter more with some movies than others, depending on how the soundtrack is done. Or it can be speaker placement or room acoustics, as different frequencies can be affected more than others, and different movies have different combinations of frequencies from other movies. And this also explains why it can be speakers, as some irregularities in frequency response can affect some voices more than others (as a bass voice, for example, is quite different from a soprano), or differences in distortion at different frequencies can make one voice unclear while another one is clear.

But if a particular movie has clear dialog on another person's system, it cannot be the movie that is the problem.