How would I connect 5.1 surround and separate stereo speakers to the same sub?

[Yoss15]

I've been doing a lot of reading and things are starting to make more sense but I'm still very new to AV so please bear with me because I'm probably making this way more complicated than it really is.

What I'm trying to accomplish:
Running a 5.1 surround system for movies and then switching to a separate set of larger stereo speakers for music. I'd like to use the same subwoofer for both sets of speakers.

My equipment:
Receiver - Sony DA5ES
Surround - One of the Dayton theater sets from partsexpress. They're fairly small bookshelf units so a little weak for music.
Subwoofer - 10" active sub, part of the Dayton set. Connected to receiver's sub pre-out via 1 RCA cable.
Stereo speakers - I don't have these yet, but I've got a line on some nice vintage Genesis 1+ speakers. 8 ohms, same as surround.
CD Player - I've been playing them through my DVD player (digital coax out) but I've been thinking of getting a separate multi-disc unit.

Possible options that have occurred to me according to my novice understanding:
#1) Wire large speakers in with L/R fronts and use a speaker switch to manually turn off one set or the other as needed. I'd like to avoid this if I can make my existing equipment handle it. Plus I might not always feel like getting up off the couch!

#2) My receiver has outputs for 2nd and 3rd rooms. My sub has RCA inputs and high level input/outputs. The right RCA input is already connected to surround. I could run speaker wires from the 3rd room receiver outputs to the sub's high level inputs and then connect the large speakers to the high level outputs.

Here's the back of my sub and receiver for reference. Is there an easier or better way to do this? Anything I'm overlooking? Thanks!

 

[Adam]

Welcome to the forum!

The option that I'd consider first is to replace the front left/right Dayton speakers with the Genesis 1+ speakers when/if you get them. You Sony is really nice in that it lets you set a crossover frequency separately for the front speakers, center channel, and surround speakers. So, if you swap out your current front speakers with the Genesis, you can adjust the crossover (if appropriate) without affecting your settings for the other speakers.

The one issue that I can think of with that option is the voice matching between the Genesis and your other speakers, primarily the center channel. Newer receivers have auto calibration and equalizer systems that do a (IMO) really nice job of compensating for differences between speakers. Your Sony doesn't have that, so you might notice a change as things in shows move from the left, though the center, and then to the right. Then again, you might not notice.

That's the option that I'd try first. It reduces the number of speakers setting around, and if the voice matching is close enough that you're happy, then you don't have to do anything more complicated with your setup.

Another option is get a separate power amp for the Genesis...but that's more costly, for sure, unless you have one around or have an older receiver around that you could use. You can use the front "PRE OUT" jacks to feed a signal to another amp, connect the Genesis to the amp, turn the speakers on the Sony off with the switch on the front panel, and the subwoofer signal should continue to be sent to your sub. However, and this is also the case if you use a speaker switch that you mentioned above, the crossover setting for your front speakers won't change when you switch back and forth - and you might want a different crossover for the Genesis versus the Dayton.

Did that make sense?

 

[Yoss15]

Hey thanks for the welcome and reply! You've given me more to think about. I'm still on the ground floor (maybe even in the basement) when it comes to understanding all the different factors involved. I hadn't even considered the crossover points. I'm going to pick up those Genesis speakers on Saturday. I've heard them play before and they sound very good — to my untrained ear at least. From what I understand, they've already got a surprising amount of low end for their size so the crossover should probably change between small bookshelves and larger stereos. Depending on how I hook them up, I suppose I could look into programming some kind of macro to adjust the crossover for the different modes.

My set up offers a few additional complications that make using the Genesis speakers in place of my fronts problematic. My TV is a 36" HD CRT so I can't put unshielded speakers very close to it. Also, my set up is flanked by a door on either side so putting the speakers further out blocks doors or gets into the flow of foot traffic. I would upgrade my TV, but another hobby of mine is old video game systems and most of them don't play nice with modern flat panels.

I'm starting to think that the 3rd room connection might be my best option. Because if I understand correctly, the sub crossover point is managed inside my receiver if the RCA connection is used. If speakers are connected to the high level connections, crossover is controlled by the knob on the back of the sub. That way I can set them separately for 5.1 and stereo and then leave them alone. The other plus is that it would be simpler for my wife. She'll generally run the other way if the process gets too complicated, but I think she can manage switching it to 3rd room for music.

Hopefully the sub doesn't somehow lock out the high level connections if the RCA is already connected.

Then I guess the other thing is, I'd need to make it clear to everyone that they shouldn't play a CD at the same time the 5.1 is active. At least I'm assuming that would be bad for the sub.

 

[Adam]

I wouldn't say that you're on the ground floor - you've clearly been giving this a lot of thought!

I've got to think more about a good setup, but I wanted to add some info on your sub and the crossover points. Do you have the SUB-1000? If so, then the following applies...if not, let us know which sub you have and we can look it up. According to the manual for the SUB-1000, the crossover setting on the sub itself is NOT applied to the high-level outputs. It's only used with the line-level inputs (and for those connections, you'll want to set it to the highest value to effectively eliminate it so that your receiver is handling all of the bass management). Therefore, the Genesis speakers and sub will surely be playing the same frequencies within some band (the sub is spec'd to 140 Hz, and the Genesis surely go below well below that), and it might sound muddy to you. You might actually prefer the Genesis speakers without the sub in the loop. Sometimes the best way to find out is to try it out different ways and decide for yourself what you like best. Well, what your wife likes best.

Out of curiosity, what is it about newer flat panels that don't play nice with the game systems that you use?

 

[Yoss15]

It is indeed the SUB-1000. I have the surround hooked up to test it out, but I haven't calibrated it yet because the speaker wire supplied with the kit is woefully inadequate. I have some monoprice wire on order. Thanks for the information on the crossover settings on this sub. I should have read the instructions more carefully. Maybe it would be for the best to forget about using the sub for both sets. I don't listen to a lot of bass heavy music anyway. I just figured I'd incorporate the sub if I could. It's something to tinker with anyway.

My game systems range as far back as Pong, Atari 2600, Intellivision, Colecovison and there on up. You can usually make everything display with current screens but things tend to not look quite right. Whether it's artifacting in the display or that some old games depend somewhat on the phosphorescent effect of a CRT for their graphics. Sometimes it's just that things look almost too sharp. This is particularly true of the Nintendo 64 era games where the graphics actually benefit from a little blur. Too sharp of a display and things get pretty jaggy looking. There is also input lag since the display has to process a non-native resolution. It can throw the timing off a little. That's not usually terribly significant though.

The HD CRT is sort of a middle ground compromise. I still get a decent hi-def picture, and the more authentic CRT look for the old games. It still suffers from a tiny bit of input lag but it's almost undetectable save for the very fastest of games. The deep blacks on a CRT are nice too. The main drawback is that it doesn't work for lightgun games. It seems that no HD displays do, not even the CRTs. They don't have the right scan lines for the light gun to detect. (OK, maybe the main drawback is that it may actually weigh more than my car. )

 

[Swerd]

Welcome to AH.

I agree with Adam when he says to use the larger Genesis speakers in place of the smaller left and right front speakers. If I understand, you have a set of 5 small Dayton speakers plus a subwoofer, and you will soon have pair of larger Genesis speakers. You plan on using them in the same room, and want them both to make use of one subwoofer. Correct? Why do you want to use two different sets of speakers in the same room?

Yes, it’s easy to make things way more complicated than they need to be. When I first switched to a modern digital AV receiver, even though I thought I understood the receiver’s manual, it took me several months of trial and error before I had a sense of what was going on.

If you use your Genesis speakers as left and right front speakers, you can easily switch back and forth from 2-channel to 5-channel audio, depending on what you are listening to and what you prefer. You are not required to use any of those digitally simulated playback (DSP) modes. In fact, I avoid them.

Look over your receiver manual, and pay attention to where it describes:

2CH: Outputs the sound in stereo. Standard 2-channel sources completely bypass the sound field processing. Multi-channel surround formats are downmixed to 2-channels.

Direct: Outputs the analog signals without digital processing.
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Any other way of wiring things, such as a 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] room connection, becomes more complex and might restrict what your choices are.

3-room/3-source Capability: This unit is equipped with stereo RCA jacks and an RCA composite video jack to send an A/V signal to a receiver or amplifier in a second room. A set of speaker outputs allows you to power stereo speakers in a third room. The same source or different sources may be played in the main room, the 2nd room, and the 3rd room.

Note: The 3rd room speaker outputs are powered using the surround back channel and the center channel amplifiers. If a surround sound mode is selected for the main room and the 3rd room speaker outputs are used, no output will be heard from the center and surround back channels in the main room; the signals that might normally go to the center and surround back channels will be distributed among the remaining speakers, so no information will be lost during playback.
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CD Player - I've been playing them through my DVD player (digital coax out) but I've been thinking of getting a separate multi-disc unit.

Keep it simple. Any DVD or Blue Ray player can easily play music off a CD. Why have multiple players, and multiple remote controls? I’m not sure new multi-disc CD players are available anymore. Most people who want access to multiple tracks of music rely on a computer coupled with a digital media server for that.

Then I guess the other thing is, I'd need to make it clear to everyone that they shouldn't play a CD at the same time the 5.1 is active. At least I'm assuming that would be bad for the sub.

I’m not aware of such a problem. EDIT: Never mind, I hadn't understood what you meant. Of course, this could be a problem. But if I understand your receiver (see above), you could not operate speakers by the 3rd room option at the same time as running the 5.1 system.

My TV is a 36" HD CRT so I can't put unshielded speakers very close to it.

If I recall, the general advice was to keep unshielded speakers at least 1½ feet away from a CRT TV.

 

[Adam]

I was going to make a joke about, "What are you using? Pong?" Right on. I still remember playing that when I was a kid. We also had a stand alone tank game console (like Atari Combat, or maybe that was it) that had two levers for each player - all it played was the tank game, but man, my brothers and I loved that game.

Do you have an Atari Jaguar? If so, do you have Alien Vs. Predator? I remember that game scaring the c**p out of me in the 90s when I was playing it with headphones in the dark. Okay, okay...it still scares me...in the daytime.

 

[Yoss15]

Hi Swerd, thanks for weighing in. I'm considering two separate sets mainly because the 5.1 set up is pretty weak for music and I figured I'd try to work in some larger speakers elsewhere. I've seen so much emphasis on never mismatching the fronts and centers that I was trying to avoid including them in the surround. It's entirely possible that my ears aren't sophisticated enough to really notice if they're off though. I could try seeing how close I can get them before I start seeing funny colors on the sides of the screen. This TV is supposed to degauss itself when it cycles on so I'd probably be OK. One of them would still be awfully close to the room's entryway and I've got some crazy little people that live in my house and they're not always that great at crash avoidance.

I've been over some of those setting you mentioned but I think it's like you said, it can be more beneficial to just try out the capabilities firsthand to really understand how it all works together. It's all new territory for me.

At this point I'm not planning on tying my computer to the system. I haven't ruled it out either though. The separate CD player thing was just to be able to have several discs loaded at once. If you couldn't tell, I'm craigslist and thrift store scrounger so I'd be looking at picking up used stuff. Actually I'd be content with even a 5 disc changer. I see plenty of 5 disc non-progressive scan DVD players around and they should do a slightly better job reading CDs than many dedicated CD players. I know, I know, I'm the kind of guy that makes a more sophisticated audiophile cringe.

 

[Yoss15]

I was going to make a joke about, "What are you using? Pong?" Right on. I still remember playing that when I was a kid. We also had a stand alone tank game console (like Atari Combat, or maybe that was it) that had two levers for each player - all it played was the tank game, but man, my brothers and I loved that game.

Do you have an Atari Jaguar? If so, do you have Alien Vs. Predator? I remember that game scaring the c**p out of me in the 90s when I was playing it with headphones in the dark. Okay, okay...it still scares me...in the daytime.

Yep, the official Pong along with a few other weird Pong clones. Sounds like you probably had a Coleco Telstar Combat game. Never seen one of those in person.

The Jaguar is the only Atari console I don't have. I still regret passing on one with the rare toilet-looking CD attachment. Those things almost never still work so didn't buy it. A few weeks later at the same flea market I happened to run into another video game guy that did buy it and he told me that it worked just fine. Oh well. I do my best to exercise my discretion in such a way that I don't wake up with a controller cord wrapped around my neck.

 

[Swerd]

I'm considering two separate sets mainly because the 5.1 set up is pretty weak for music and I figured I'd try to work in some larger speakers elsewhere. I've seen so much emphasis on never mismatching the fronts and centers that I was trying to avoid including them in the surround.

I think the emphasis on never mismatching front and center speakers has confused people as much as it has helped them. Having weak or puny front speakers is far worse than having a mismatch.

I'm not familiar with Genesis speakers. Which model are you getting? Please tell us what they're like when you've gotten them up and running.

I've been over some of those settings you mentioned but I think it's like you said, it can be more beneficial to just try out the capabilities firsthand to really understand how it all works together. It's all new territory for me.

At this point I'm not planning on tying my computer to the system. I haven't ruled it out either though. The separate CD player thing was just to be able to have several discs loaded at once. If you couldn't tell, I'm craigslist and thrift store scrounger so I'd be looking at picking up used stuff. Actually I'd be content with even a 5 disc changer. I see plenty of 5 disc non-progressive scan DVD players around and they should do a slightly better job reading CDs than many dedicated CD players. I know, I know, I'm the kind of guy that makes a more sophisticated audiophile cringe.

Remember that the moving parts of those used 5-disc players are usually the first things to jam and fail.

Also remember that most all modern AV receivers get a digital audio signal when connected via optical or coaxial cable to a DVD or CD player. The DAC chip on the receiver decodes it to analog audio. So with a digital connection, all CD or DVD players are merely digital disc readers, and have little or no effect on the sound quality.

 

[Yoss15]

They're Genesis 1+ speakers made by Genesis Physics, 8 inch woofer, inverted dome tweeter. They're virtually the same as EPI speakers of the same time period. Another cool thing is they're still supported by one of the former employees. They were the budget audiophile speaker of their day and still seem to have a pretty good following. I'll be glad to tell you how they sound, but I probably lack the experience to convey it in a meaningful way.

I was thinking DVD player because they tend to have better stabilization and are more forgiving about reading a questionable disc without skipping. I'll try my hand at repair if need be, but they can be had for $20 or less so I'm not out much if one croaks. I'm not too much of a stranger at digging around inside of old electronics.

 

[Yoss15]

Well I have the Genesis speakers now. I don't have a lot to compare them to, but I'd say they're very clear and slightly on the warm side. They sound good to me. When playing old familiar music I was able to detect greater range and little nuances that I never noticed before. I tried them with and without the subwoofer. While having the subwoofer included was nice, I didn't miss it all that much without it so figuring out how to do multi connections to the sub has slid down the scale of importance a little. The walnut finish on the cabinets is in exceptionally good shape. The color and grain are a close match for what I have on the floor so they don't even look as dated as they could. I need to build a couple short stands to raise them up a little.

I also tried them out with the surround sound in place of the fronts. I didn't think they sounded bad and they weren't distracting in comparison with the other speakers. However, it wasn't quite as good as with the matched speakers. I'm not even sure how to quantify it other than to say that it wasn't quite as immersive — just a little more flattened out.

 

[Swerd]

Well I have the Genesis speakers now. I don't have a lot to compare them to, but I'd say they're very clear and slightly on the warm side. They sound good to me. When playing old familiar music I was able to detect greater range and little nuances that I never noticed before. I tried them with and without the subwoofer. While having the subwoofer included was nice, I didn't miss it all that much without it so figuring out how to do multi connections to the sub has slid down the scale of importance a little. The walnut finish on the cabinets is in exceptionally good shape. The color and grain are a close match for what I have on the floor so they don't even look as dated as they could. I need to build a couple short stands to raise them up a little.

Glad you like them. An 8" woofer ought to go deep enough to play most music without requiring a subwoofer. I don't remember if these speakers are in sealed cabinets or have reflex ports.

Stands that lift them up from the floor will make for a bit less bass, making them a bit less warm sounding. But that may also improve the overall balance. Look for stands that put the tweeters about as high as face level while you're sitting.

I also tried them out with the surround sound in place of the fronts. I didn't think they sounded bad and they weren't distracting in comparison with the other speakers. However, it wasn't quite as good as with the matched speakers. I'm not even sure how to quantify it other than to say that it wasn't quite as immersive — just a little more flattened out.

Try listening to a movie with just the two Genesis speakers, and then again with the small center speaker handling the dialog. Compare how clear the dialog sounds both ways.