Are todays receivers better then those from 5+ years ago???

[DD66000]

I expected a lot more from Anthem. That's why I'm hard on them.

I wouldn't care if EMO weighs 150 lbs and Bryston weighs 15 lbs; I would take Bryston any day.

And add Parasound, ATI to Bryston. I would never waste my money on EMO.

And I notice none of the avrs listed even come close to doubling power >4Ω. The only amp I've ever had that did is my HK Citation19.

 

[PENG]

The thing is with Onkyo, starting around 2008 due to the heat induced rate fiasco with the xx5 series, they started putting chip limiters on power output, that's probably why even though they are behemoths that weigh 40% more than the competition, their ACD numbers don't look that great. Also Yamaha is the same, it's clear they artificially limit ACD on their 40lb RX-A3020 to 60 watts even though they are capable of much more peak output, otherwise it doesn't make sense how a 20-some pound Denon that definitely isn't using a switch mode power supply can beat 40 or 55lb monsters in ACD tests but can't even get within 50% of the big Yamaha/Onkyos in stereo output.

I think Onkyo is letting up a bit in the built-in ACD limitations, if you look at the TX-NR3010 review, it manages to put out a bit more power, and it has smaller caps than the 5xxx series.

Onkyo TX-NR3010 A/V Receiver HT Labs Measures | Home Theater

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 114.1 watts
1% distortion at 127.2 watts

Yes I agree with your assumptions on the Onkyo ACD/heat thing and it would likely be the same reason in the case of the Denon AVR-4810 because there are no other reasons for that 44 pounders to put out 5X123.5W yet only around 7X35W other than some artificial (perhaps overly aggressive) is at work. May be they wanted to insure against warranty claims from people who are stupid enough to play rock and roll music all day long with volume in the + territories. Looking only at the 2 channel numbers, I do feel Denon and Marantz has the most balanced approach; and in doing they are able to limit the weights to under 40 lbs so that most adults can handle them without hurting their backs. My educated guess is that they did it by using more plastic and Aluminum, more light weight perforated sheet metal that helps heat dissipation hence less heat sinks are needed, and custom designed transformers for higher kVA to weight ratio. All that costs money too but probably get offset by the resulting lighter heat sinks and lower packaging/shipping costs.

I would not say the same about Yamaha because of their seemingly smaller transformer sizes. I know power consumption figures are all over the map, but if you read them carefully including the verbiage and fine prints you will find that they typically use smaller kVA rating transformers. I recall a few years ago, AH had mentioned that Yamaha claimed they emphasized more on dynamic capabilities while playing down the importance of ACD capability. So I think they maximize their amp capability to deliver more power for 2 channel music enjoyment while taking advantage of the fact that most (obviously there are exceptions) MCH applications (e.g. movies) just don't fire all channels to high levels simultaneously. In doing so, they might have spent their budgeted amount on a certain product on the amps, caps, but cut back a little on the transformer. It is all a balancing act in trying to put money in where it counts most. I actually think Yamaha is right, look at where HK is today with their emphasis on ACD capability that resulted in significantly lower 2 channel numbers when compared to other brands within the same price group. It is better to put money where it counts, instead of just trying to claim the so called "honest HK watts".

 

[surveyor]

In addition, the Denon AVR-4520 utilizes custom-made massive capacitors and Selected Schottky Barrier Diodes which provide high burst power.

 

[slipperybidness]

I wouldn't call it dirty game as that seems harsh, but more like organized confusion kind of games. Now take a look of a topic that I brought up a few times recently, that transformer ratings (output kVA) and power consumption figures do not always support their so called continuous rated output. Just look at Emotiva's specs, their rated output watts per kVA are all over the map across their product lines (I mean within their class A/B design lines). The only models I have faith in them coming close theoretically to their continuous rated outputs are the XPA-2 and the top XPR models. Anthem's MCA lines are pretty bad too in that regard. Another thing, weight within the A/B design class, up to a point, does not seem to have much correlation to power output any more. Again, Emos are heavier than Bryston and Anthem but they don't offer more power per lb for sure. All sorts of games being played, intentional or not.

Personally, I'm put more stock in the KVA rating than the output power rating.

 

[lsiberian]

If you need more power use an external amp for the front channels. Then you can use the receiver to drive the surrounds.

 

[DD66000]

Yes I agree with your assumptions on the Onkyo ACD/heat thing and it would likely be the same reason in the case of the Denon AVR-4810 because there are no other reasons for that 44 pounders to put out 5X123.5W yet only around 7X35W other than some artificial (perhaps overly aggressive) is at work. May be they wanted to insure against warranty claims from people who are stupid enough to play rock and roll music all day long with volume in the + territories. Looking only at the 2 channel numbers, I do feel Denon and Marantz has the most balanced approach; and in doing they are able to limit the weights to under 40 lbs so that most adults can handle them without hurting their backs. My educated guess is that they did it by using more plastic and Aluminum, more light weight perforated sheet metal that helps heat dissipation hence less heat sinks are needed, and custom designed transformers for higher kVA to weight ratio. All that costs money too but probably get offset by the resulting lighter heat sinks and lower packaging/shipping costs.

I would not say the same about Yamaha because of their seemingly smaller transformer sizes. I know power consumption figures are all over the map, but if you read them carefully including the verbiage and fine prints you will find that they typically use smaller kVA rating transformers. I recall a few years ago, AH had mentioned that Yamaha claimed they emphasized more on dynamic capabilities while playing down the importance of ACD capability. So I think they maximize their amp capability to deliver more power for 2 channel music enjoyment while taking advantage of the fact that most (obviously there are exceptions) MCH applications (e.g. movies) just don't fire all channels to high levels simultaneously. In doing so, they might have spent their budgeted amount on a certain product on the amps, caps, but cut back a little on the transformer. It is all a balancing act in trying to put money in where it counts most. I actually think Yamaha is right, look at where HK is today with their emphasis on ACD capability that resulted in significantly lower 2 channel numbers when compared to other brands within the same price group. It is better to put money where it counts, instead of just trying to claim the so called "honest HK watts".

I can say I have driven a Yamaha amp into protection mode (and that was with a sub in the mix). But I have never even come close to doing so with a HK, Parasound amp. A HK amp will outperform any Yamaha amp. As I said previously, a 90w HK (no more than two generations back) will be at least as much as 120~150w Yamaha.
I'm not sure about the latest generation of HK...heard they are now rated about the same as the rest of the pack.

 

[allargon]

[/B]
I can say I have driven a Yamaha amp into protection mode (and that was with a sub in the mix). But I have never even come close to doing so with a HK, Parasound amp. A HK amp will outperform any Yamaha amp. As I said previously, a 90w HK (no more than two generations back) will be at least as much as 120~150w Yamaha.
I'm not sure about the latest generation of HK...heard they are now rated about the same as the rest of the pack.

The latest generation of HK will still run circles around Yammy. I already notice the difference b/w the HK 2650 I returned to Fry's and this Yamaha A720.

My wife loves the Yammy though.

 

[DD66000]

The latest generation of HK will still run circles around Yammy. I already notice the difference b/w the HK 2650 I returned to Fry's and this Yamaha A720.

My wife loves the Yammy though.

Back in the '70s, I thought my Yamaha CA2010 was quite good...until I hooked up a HK Citation 11, 19 combo. Much better upper end, not as edgy and better midrange.
So I have a hard time understanding why your wife would prefer a Yamy over HK.
I currently have HK3390, HK3600, Citation 19; Parasound P7, HCA2205A

 

[ichigo]

Another big thing from mid 2000s is capacitance on flagship AVRs has been dropping significantly.

At the dawn of HDMI, 60,000-100,000uF (or more) was not uncommon in flagships.

By HDMI 1.3 40,000-50,000uF more common

Now in HDMI 1.4+ era, most flagships are runnning between 24,000-30,000uF

 

[PENG]

Personally, I'm put more stock in the KVA rating than the output power rating.

Agree, I always wonder why Emo amps are so heavy yet the transformer kVA rating are so low, relatively speaking. I don't suppose they put lead (or cast iron) for HSE reasons plates in them to boost the weight. The XPR series do have larger transformers but not the XPAs below the XPA1&2 or the UPAs.

 

[PENG]

Back in the '70s, I thought my Yamaha CA2010 was quite good...until I hooked up a HK Citation 11, 19 combo. Much better upper end, not as edgy and better midrange.
So I have a hard time understanding why your wife would prefer a Yamy over HK.
I currently have HK3390, HK3600, Citation 19; Parasound P7, HCA2205A

If you are talking about the Citation amps I will have to agree with you, but I thought some vintage Yamaha amps are real monsters too.

 

[M Code]

Next time someone says that to you remind them that amplifier power specifications are regulated by law. Everybody has to provide a rating for power with a bandwidth of 20 hz to 20 khz at less than 1% distortion, both channels driven. That's the power rating you should use. It is accurate because it has to be by law.

There may be a statue in place but there is no enforcement...
So there are multiple misleading disclosures, regarding the 20Hz-20kHz bandwidth is required that is incorrect...
Bandwidth can be specified in many ways; 10Hz-20kHz or 50Hz-15kHz or even 1KHz.. As long as THD % and load impedance are stated. Here is an example of a brand that spreads its BS and fraudulent specs..

Amazon.com: Pyle Home PT3300 3000-Watt Power Amplifier: Electronics

3000 watts for $99...
Best to stay with established brands, they may stretch certain specs but are somewhat more reliable..

Just my $0.02...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

And add Parasound, ATI to Bryston. I would never waste my money on EMO.

Why, some folks might even consider us vainglorious and haughty-taughty.

McIntosh, Mark Levinson, Lexicon, Theta Digital, Cary Audio, Classe, B+K, ATI, Parasound, Bryston, JBL Synthesis, Krell, etc.

Anthem, Adcom, Sunfire, NAD, Arcam, Rotel also?

EMO is good, don't get wrong. But when I see some of these guys on AVS Revel and B+W threads compare their EMO to $10K+ amps, I have laugh.

 

[Irvrobinson]

regarding the 20Hz-20kHz bandwidth is required that is incorrect...
Bandwidth can be specified in many ways; 10Hz-20kHz or 50Hz-15kHz or even 1KHz.. As long as THD % and load impedance are stated.

Correct. The FTC rule on advertising amplifier power is simply that you must state the frequency range over which the power is delivered, the power must be measured using the RMS method, and you must include the maximum distortion level, how many channels are driven, and the rated impedance for that output level.

While I'm not expert on the latest rulings for AVRs, the last discussion I read on the topic was that the FTC was still requiring AVRs to be measured with at least two channels driven, stereo equipment had to measured with both channels driven, and no one was allowed to advertise power that was the sum of all channels' power.

The FTC rule is actually quite specific and covers such things as pre-conditioning the amplifier at 1/3 power prior to testing, and I remember a rather heated discussion several years ago about what to do with subwoofers and active loudspeakers.

 

[allargon]

What about the Pioneer SC line? I had the opportunity to spend more and buy a SC-1222-k for another $150 over this Yammy A720. I know it has oodles and oodles of class D power.

I know the regular VSX line is so-so, but the SC's and Elite's should be good, eh?

 

[padgman1]

Here is a slightly different turn on the original OP's question...........are today's AV receivers ADEQUATE for HT/music use in the average 5.1/7.1 ( 5.2/7.2) setup in an "average" size room ( 2000-3000 cu ft)? Do you need a more expensive AV receiver ( >$800) to adequately power these systems, or do you even need to go to separates ( preamp/ power amp)?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Here is a slightly different turn on the original OP's question...........are today's AV receivers ADEQUATE for HT/music use in the average 5.1/7.1 ( 5.2/7.2) setup in an "average" size room ( 2000-3000 cu ft)? Do you need a more expensive AV receiver ( >$800) to adequately power these systems, or do you even need to go to separates ( preamp/ power amp)?

Based on my definition of "average", yes I think the average AVRs are adequate, especially since on average most people will set their speakers to small and let their subs handle all the power-hungry bass.

 

[ichigo]

In addition, the Denon AVR-4520 utilizes custom-made massive capacitors and Selected Schottky Barrier Diodes which provide high burst power.

How big are these massive capacitors? 15,000uF?

 

[ichigo]

There may be a statue in place but there is no enforcement...
So there are multiple misleading disclosures, regarding the 20Hz-20kHz bandwidth is required that is incorrect...
Bandwidth can be specified in many ways; 10Hz-20kHz or 50Hz-15kHz or even 1KHz.. As long as THD % and load impedance are stated. Here is an example of a brand that spreads its BS and fraudulent specs..

Amazon.com: Pyle Home PT3300 3000-Watt Power Amplifier: Electronics

3000 watts for $99...
Best to stay with established brands, they may stretch certain specs but are somewhat more reliable..

Just my $0.02...

3000 Watts? Must be the "PMPO watts" they used to advertise computer speakers with...it does say 300 watts @ 8 ohms so I guess at best you are looking at 150 x 2.

 

[cpp]

3000 Watts? Must be the "PMPO watts" they used to advertise computer speakers with...it does say 300 watts @ 8 ohms so I guess at best you are looking at 150 x 2.

I wonder what Pyle is doing their spec's show 800 watts @ 2 ohms

So where is the 3000 coming from