"Upgraded" from Samsung BD-ES6000 to Sony C222ES CD Player. HDMI vs Analog???

[bizmord]

So .... I am all about quality sound.

I love the sound I get from playing Regular CDs, also files WAV, FLAC and even 320kbp MP3 music....all via USB card in my Samsung BD-ES6000. Through HDMI.

Now .... a friend gave me his old Sony C222ES CD Player that I guess was very good back in the day. He suggests connecting via Analog and through cables he gave me. See pic below.

View attachment 11853

Does this sound right???
Will CDs sound better via Analog Sony CD player vs HDMI Samsung blu ray player???

please advise.

 

[Adam]

At some point, the digital audio stream needs to be converted to analog. You can do that conversion in any component that has a DAC (digital to analog converter). That can be in the source player (e.g. the Sony CD player), in a receiver (or preamp), in an outboard DAC, or in another component.

If the Sony has a DAC that's better than your receiver's (for example) DAC by a big enough margin that you can actually tell, then it's possible that using an analog connection between the Sony and your receiver would actually sound better to you than a digital connection from the BD player. Nowadays, DACs are pretty darn good even in lower end receivers, though.

So, depending on your friend's experiences, it's completely possible that connecting with the analog cables gave him the best overall sound in his system. You may or may not think that. You can always try it and find out.

EDIT: Unrelated to your question, but I'm getting annoyed that every word that has a-m-p in it is getting autolinked to a company that I think ripped me off.

 

[j_garcia]

EDIT: Unrelated to your question, but I'm getting annoyed that every word that has a-m-p in it is getting autolinked to a company that I think ripped me off.

I think that system that was making related links is back on the forum in a new form.

 

[bizmord]

At some point, the digital audio stream needs to be converted to analog. You can do that conversion in any component that has a DAC (digital to analog converter). That can be in the source player (e.g. the Sony CD player), in a receiver (or preamp), in an outboard DAC, or in another component.

If the Sony has a DAC that's better than your receiver's (for example) DAC by a big enough margin that you can actually tell, then it's possible that using an analog connection between the Sony and your receiver would actually sound better to you than a digital connection from the BD player. Nowadays, DACs are pretty darn good even in lower end receivers, though.

So, depending on your friend's experiences, it's completely possible that connecting with the analog cables gave him the best overall sound in his system. You may or may not think that. You can always try it and find out.

Thanks for the info,

But for my situation does one have a better DAC then another?

Sony C222ES CD player
Sony SCD-C222ES Multichannel SACD 5-disc changer at Crutchfield.com

vs

Samsung-BD-ES6000
Samsung BD-ES6000 3D Blu-ray player with Wi-Fi® at Crutchfield.com

 

[j_garcia]

That Samsung doesn't look like it is going to have great DACs, but can't really find info on what it uses. The 222ES DACs should be pretty good. I still have my original version (SCD-222ES SACD) and it still sounds great today. I'd sell those Monster cables on CL and pick up some decent ones though (those will work, but they're Monster).

 

[cpd]

For the benefit of my own education, I'd love to know if this sounds right from those more knowledgeable than me:

Shouldn't the comparison for purposes of interconnect choice be between the DAC in the Yamaha receiver and the Sony SACD? If I am not mistaken the Yamaha 465 uses Burr Brown DAC's, which are well regarded. From what i can find, the Sony uses "3 Super Audio DAC's". Those I cannot find much information on. Although there are 3 DAC's, the Sony is also an older unit. If the Yamaha has better DAC's wouldn't you use the SACD's digital coax or digital optical out, and let the Yamaha do the conversion?

Even if the DAC's produce similar results, wouldn't you opt for one of the digital outs on the SACD just to conserve on cabling and clutter (2-6 analog vs. 1 digital)? I would think the only reason to use the analog outs on the SACD would be if the Sony DAC's produce noticeably better sound.

 

[Pyrrho]

Thanks for the info,

But for my situation does one have a better DAC then another?

Sony C222ES CD player
Sony SCD-C222ES Multichannel SACD 5-disc changer at Crutchfield.com

vs

Samsung-BD-ES6000
Samsung BD-ES6000 3D Blu-ray player with Wi-Fi® at Crutchfield.com

That Samsung doesn't look like it is going to have great DACs, but can't really find info on what it uses. The 222ES DACs should be pretty good. I still have my original version (SCD-222ES SACD) and it still sounds great today. I'd sell those Monster cables on CL and pick up some decent ones though (those will work, but they're Monster).

If the Samsung is hooked up to the receiver via HDMI, then it does not matter what the digital to analog converters are like in the Samsung at all. It would be in the receiver that the conversion would take place, because HDMI is always digital.

 

[bizmord]

...... I'd sell those Monster cables on CL and pick up some decent ones though (those will work, but they're Monster).

Just curious ... why? What cables would be better than what I got right now? Can you share a link or model, anything please. Very curious because I thought these were top of the line.

If the Samsung is hooked up to the receiver via HDMI, then it does not matter what the digital to analog converters are like in the Samsung at all. It would be in the receiver that the conversion would take place, because HDMI is always digital.

Good point ... so then I am comparing Sony CD Player ($600) vs Yamaha rx-v465 ($250). Both of these are about 2-4 years apart in making.

 

[Pyrrho]

For the benefit of my own education, I'd love to know if this sounds right from those more knowledgeable than me:

Shouldn't the comparison for purposes of interconnect choice be between the DAC in the Yamaha receiver and the Sony SACD? If I am not mistaken the Yamaha 465 uses Burr Brown DAC's, which are well regarded. From what i can find, the Sony uses "3 Super Audio DAC's". Those I cannot find much information on. Although there are 3 DAC's, the Sony is also an older unit. If the Yamaha has better DAC's wouldn't you use the SACD's digital coax or digital optical out, and let the Yamaha do the conversion?

Even if the DAC's produce similar results, wouldn't you opt for one of the digital outs on the SACD just to conserve on cabling and clutter (2-6 analog vs. 1 digital)? I would think the only reason to use the analog outs on the SACD would be if the Sony DAC's produce noticeably better sound.

The reason to use the analog connections would be if one is playing SACDs rather than CDs. The digital on SACD cannot be sent via conventional coaxial or optical digital connections (though it can be sent via HDMI, but that would not be available on that old SACD player).

If one is playing CDs, then it is as you say, one would be comparing the DACs in the Sony with the DACs in the receiver, since the BD player is hooked up via HDMI. One would be comparing the DACs in the Sony with the DACs in the BD player ONLY if one hooked up the BD player via analog audio and used that instead of the HDMI connection.

 

[Pyrrho]

So .... I am all about quality sound.

I love the sound I get from playing Regular CDs, also files WAV, FLAC and even 320kbp MP3 music....all via USB card in my Samsung BD-ES6000. Through HDMI.

Now .... a friend gave me his old Sony C222ES CD Player that I guess was very good back in the day. He suggests connecting via Analog and through cables he gave me.

...

Does this sound right???
Will CDs sound better via Analog Sony CD player vs HDMI Samsung blu ray player???

please advise.

Most likely, with CDs, it will sound the same.

In order to properly do a listening test, you need to level match the two for your comparison. That would be done by carefully measuring the voltage at the output of the receiver. If you fail to level match, then the one that is slightly louder will tend to be preferred. This is because human hearing is not linear, and as the volume increases, subjectively there seems to be more bass and more treble. This, by the way, is the true function of "loudness compensation" controls on old stereo gear; it is to boost the bass and the treble for low volume listening, so that it subjectively sounds right. This is briefly discussed at:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_compensation

So, if you don't level match, you are likely to prefer whichever one is slightly louder than the other, but that will not show that there is really any qualitative difference, as one can simply turn up the volume for the one that is a lower level.

It is almost certain that there will be a slight difference in levels coming out of the Sony and coming out of the DAC circuit in the receiver, so you have to level match to have a meaningful test.

 

[j_garcia]

Just curious ... why? What cables would be better than what I got right now? Can you share a link or model, anything please. Very curious because I thought these were top of the line.

Monster is all about hype and name, not performance, and is one of the few companies that I can actually say I HATE for their business practices. "Top of the line" means little when it comes to interconnects too; all you really need is properly built. I've used some exotic, semi-expensive interconnects and some no nonsense ones and the difference was...well I am using the no nonsense ones

I buy cables pretty much exclusively from these guys now. Blue Jeans Cable -- Quality Cables at Reasonable Prices I started using them about 10yrs ago and never should have bothered trying others because it came full circle.

Here is a good example of why not to use Monster: http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/v-interconnects-cables-power-conditioning/50142-blue-jeans-cable-donate-sales-profits-monster-mini-golf-lawsuit.html

If the Samsung is hooked up to the receiver via HDMI, then it does not matter what the digital to analog converters are like in the Samsung at all. It would be in the receiver that the conversion would take place, because HDMI is always digital.

That's what I said earlier, however it CAN make a difference because HDMI can be either decoded and sent as PCM OR sent raw and decoded in the receiver for most sources. So there would still be a DAC difference, though I am not sure how big of a difference it would be in that case.

 

[bizmord]

well.............. regarding DAC .... now that I hooked up a better receiver Marantz SR7005 ... could one argue that DAC there is better than on a 8 year old Sony CD player? So .... if I stick with a good receiver then I should definitely use BlueRay player to play CDs (music)

 

[Pyrrho]

...
That's what I said earlier, however it CAN make a difference because HDMI can be either decoded and sent as PCM OR sent raw and decoded in the receiver for most sources. So there would still be a DAC difference, though I am not sure how big of a difference it would be in that case.

No, that would be a digital to digital converter in the Samsung, not a DAC. Such a conversion will make no difference in sound unless the device is malfunctioning or incompetently designed.


I do agree with you about Monster being a pretty evil company. I would never buy from them, both because it is a waste of money, and because they will do bad things with that money.

 

[j_garcia]

well.............. regarding DAC .... now that I hooked up a better receiver Marantz SR7005 ... could one argue that DAC there is better than on a 8 year old Sony CD player? So .... if I stick with a good receiver then I should definitely use BlueRay player to play CDs (music)

Marantz has always had great DACs so much of this may be moot, however for SACD, you would still need to use analog from that Sony player.

 

[fmw]

For the benefit of my own education, I'd love to know if this sounds right from those more knowledgeable than me:

Shouldn't the comparison for purposes of interconnect choice be between the DAC in the Yamaha receiver and the Sony SACD? If I am not mistaken the Yamaha 465 uses Burr Brown DAC's, which are well regarded. From what i can find, the Sony uses "3 Super Audio DAC's". Those I cannot find much information on. Although there are 3 DAC's, the Sony is also an older unit. If the Yamaha has better DAC's wouldn't you use the SACD's digital coax or digital optical out, and let the Yamaha do the conversion?

Even if the DAC's produce similar results, wouldn't you opt for one of the digital outs on the SACD just to conserve on cabling and clutter (2-6 analog vs. 1 digital)? I would think the only reason to use the analog outs on the SACD would be if the Sony DAC's produce noticeably better sound.

Don't get hung up on manufacturer hype. There isn't much to digital to analog conversion. It was perfected 25 years ago. Our bias controlled tests showed no audible difference in any DAC we tested. They were all competent from a Sony CD Walkman to a $2500 external DAC. I'm sure the DAC's in your two components are also competent and will do an equally good job. I recommend you view it as a non issue and do whatever feels best for you.

 

[bizmord]

Don't get hung up on manufacturer hype. There isn't much to digital to analog conversion. It was perfected 25 years ago. Our bias controlled tests showed no audible difference in any DAC we tested. They were all competent from a Sony CD Walkman to a $2500 external DAC. I'm sure the DAC's in your two components are also competent and will do an equally good job. I recommend you view it as a non issue and do whatever feels best for you.

then why does music sound better when i play it through that Sony CD player vs Samsung bluray?

 

[hthero]

it's all about implementation not only the dacs but the stereo output stage,but when it comes to stereo analog a good high end cd player would have no match.

 

[Grador]

then why does music sound better when i play it through that Sony CD player vs Samsung bluray?

First you need to be positive that they are EXACTLY level matched. Then you need to make sure you aren't thinking that the CD should sound better.

 

[Pyrrho]

then why does music sound better when i play it through that Sony CD player vs Samsung bluray?

That was already answered above in post 10. There is another possibility not mentioned above, and that is that you could have the settings different for how the receiver processes the different inputs. That could make a huge difference in sound that has nothing whatever to do with the quality of the players and the sound they are capable of giving you.