Outlaw 975 Pre-pro

[Irvrobinson]

The measured differences between any of the three pre-pros in this thread are almost certainly irrelevant. Regardless, HT's limited measurements, where they don't even tell you the test conditions, are not very useful for the fine-grained differentiation you're making. If money were no object I'd rather have the Bryston than either of the other two. I've sampled Emo electronics and found the one I tried wanting in operational performance. The 975 is a good value, but I'd rather have the quality and ergonomics of a Bryston any day. I'm just not willing to pay the price, so I went the best reasonable compromise.

 

[ahblaza]

Thanks IRV for all the useful hands on experience, I think I can get the 975 and never look back, and it will also remove that thought "Maybe I should give Audy another chance". And Dr. Mark likes it ADTG also, thank you for all the specs. Alex you too my man. A very good day indeed, may get better soon, hey Fuzz
Cheers Jeff

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The measured differences between any of the three pre-pros in this thread are almost certainly irrelevant. Regardless, HT's limited measurements, where they don't even tell you the test conditions, are not very useful for the fine-grained differentiation you're making. If money were no object I'd rather have the Bryston than either of the other two. I've sampled Emo electronics and found the one I tried wanting in operational performance. The 975 is a good value, but I'd rather have the quality and ergonomics of a Bryston any day. I'm just not willing to pay the price, so I went the best reasonable compromise.

The point is not that they are equals or the Emo & Outlaw are better. The point is that both the Emo & Outlaw are apparently high quality even when they are $550-600 and made in China; and they have the measurements to show it, not just their word of mouth.

It's unequivocal and obvious that 100% of all people would rather have a $10K or $4K pre-pro or AVR over a $600 pre-pro.

 

[Pyrrho]

Wait, how did I miss this? The $600 Emotiva pre-pro has even better measurements than the $10,000 Bryston:

Emotiva UMC-200 Preamp/Processor HT Labs Measures | Home Theater
"Response from the multichannel input to the main output measures –0.20 dB at 10 Hz, –0.05 dB at 20 Hz, –0.02 dB at 20 kHz, and –0.12 dB at 50 kHz. The analog THD+N was less than 0.016 percent at 1 kHz with a 100-millivolt input and the volume control set to 65.5. Crosstalk with a 100-mV input was –93.91 dB left to right and –92.23 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with “A” weighting was –127.94 dBrA."

.........

$10,000 Bryston SP3:
Bryston SP3 Surround Processor and 9B SST² Amplifier HT Labs Measures | Home Theater
"Response from the multichannel input to the main output measures –0.05 dB at 10 Hz, –0.01 dB at 20 Hz, –0.06 dB at 20 kHz, and –0.42 dB at 50 kHz. The analog THD+N was less than 0.022 percent at 1 kHz with a 100-millivolt input and the volume control set to +2.5. Crosstalk with a 100-mV input was –92.92 dB left to right and –93.44 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with “A” weighting was –121.59 dBrA."

Very expensive gear is often worse than reasonably priced gear. I remember reading about some power amps that were ungodly expensive (about $150k for stereo, if I remember correctly) that performed worse than any decently made modest power amplifier, at least when used within the design limits of the modest amplifier. Granted, really cheap is usually not so good, but once one pays enough to get something that is quite good, more money can actually make things worse. People who buy the crazy expensive stuff are generally crazy, and do not get things with a real value proportioned to their cost.

Oppo comes to mind in this as well, when comparing BD players and the older DVD players. More money does not equal a better product.

 

[Irvrobinson]

The point is not that they are equals or the Emo & Outlaw are better. The point is that both the Emo & Outlaw are apparently high quality even when they are $550-600 and made in China; and they have the measurements to show it, not just their word of mouth.

It's unequivocal and obvious that 100% of all people would rather have a $10K or $4K pre-pro or AVR over a $600 pre-pro.

Perhaps you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm not making a blanket statement, because I don't think it would be valid. I've seen one of the Brystons in action and I liked the ergonomics and the flexibility (and, frankly, the looks) better than either the Emo or the Outlaw. I think to a certain extent with the Bryston you get what you pay for, but those benefits are unlikely to be in absolute electrical performance. I actually liked the McIntosh MX-121 the most of all the pre-pros I've seen, not because it was more expensive (which it is), but because it is so well-built and easy to use in every possible way. There are many expensive products out there I wouldn't have in my house. So perhaps you just misunderstood me because I happen to like the Bryston.

 

[TLS Guy]

The point is not that they are equals or the Emo & Outlaw are better. The point is that both the Emo & Outlaw are apparently high quality even when they are $550-600 and made in China; and they have the measurements to show it, not just their word of mouth.

It's unequivocal and obvious that 100% of all people would rather have a $10K or $4K pre-pro or AVR over a $600 pre-pro.

Yes, but which will still be going in 20, 30, 40 years? I really try and buy for longevity.

 

[Pyrrho]

The point is not that they are equals or the Emo & Outlaw are better. The point is that both the Emo & Outlaw are apparently high quality even when they are $550-600 and made in China; and they have the measurements to show it, not just their word of mouth.

It's unequivocal and obvious that 100% of all people would rather have a $10K or $4K pre-pro or AVR over a $600 pre-pro.

Yes, but which will still be going in 20, 30, 40 years? I really try and buy for longevity.

With a surround processor, great longevity is not really very valuable. Think about what you could get 20 years ago (to use even your smallest number). Would you want to be using a surround processor that old?

Also, if we look at the past, some of the modest brands have held up very well. The Pioneer gear from the 1970's has held up well, and they were a relatively reasonably priced brand from that era, not one of the crazy expensive brands that one could get. And back then, many people were prejudiced against Japanese gear the way that many are now prejudiced against Chinese gear. The country of origin does not determine quality.

Back to a surround processor: Buying one that costs around $500-600 and replacing it with a newer model in a few years is probably a much better idea than buying a $10k processor and keeping it for 30 years. (Not to mention, much cheaper.) Very likely, something new will come out and make whatever processor one buys today obsolete in a few years. At least, that has been the case for the past 20 years. A 5 year old surround processor is not one that is very desirable, and its resale value tends to reflect that fact.

 

[Irvrobinson]

With a surround processor, great longevity is not really very valuable. Think about what you could get 20 years ago (to use even your smallest number). Would you want to be using a surround processor that old?

Also, if we look at the past, some of the modest brands have held up very well. The Pioneer gear from the 1970's has held up well, and they were a relatively reasonably priced brand from that era, not one of the crazy expensive brands that one could get. And back then, many people were prejudiced against Japanese gear the way that many are now prejudiced against Chinese gear. The country of origin does not determine quality.

Back to a surround processor: Buying one that costs around $500-600 and replacing it with a newer model in a few years is probably a much better idea than buying a $10k processor and keeping it for 30 years. (Not to mention, much cheaper.) Very likely, something new will come out and make whatever processor one buys today obsolete in a few years. At least, that has been the case for the past 20 years. A 5 year old surround processor is not one that is very desirable, and its resale value tends to reflect that fact.

All good points, though the most common reason I've found for people buying $10K (or $15K) processors isn't longevity, it's that $10K is about as significant an expenditure to them as $500 is to people in the Outlaw market.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

To me, the only reason to spend $10K on a pre-pro is because you are damn rich.

Yes, if I were a billionaire, I would buy the McIntosh, Bryston, or even Mark Levinson (if they built a new pre-pro) or Krell every 2 years.

It's difficult to know what's going to technologically happen in 10 years with audio/video gears.

I hope it is relatively mature now - that HDMI & 1080P/4K will be around forever, but you never know.

I hope my high-end Denon AVP-A1HDCI will last 30 years.

The interesting question is, can a cheap-made-in-China-short-longevity-low-quality pre-pro have a Crosstalk of -92dB and SNR of -122dB ?

Am I buying an Outlaw or Emotiva? No, I'm not. But it's just INTERESTING to me that they both measure like a $10K Bryston. Interesting is just interesting.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So perhaps you just misunderstood me because I happen to like the Bryston.

Oh, I love Bryston too. And McIntosh, Mark Levinson, Lexicon, Krell, Cary Audio, etc.

The chances of me owning the Bryston is a lot higher than the chances of me owning an Emotiva or Outlaw.

 

[Pyrrho]

To me, the only reason to spend $10K on a pre-pro is because you are damn rich.

Yes, if I were a billionaire, I would buy the McIntosh, Bryston, or even Mark Levinson (if they built a new pre-pro) or Krell every 2 years.

It's difficult to know what's going to technologically happen in 10 years with audio/video gears.

I hope it is relatively mature now - that HDMI & 1080P/4K will be around forever, but you never know.

I hope my high-end Denon AVP-A1HDCI will last 30 years.

The interesting question is, can a cheap-made-in-China-short-longevity-low-quality pre-pro have a Crosstalk of -92dB and SNR of -122dB ?

Am I buying an Outlaw or Emotiva? No, I'm not. But it's just INTERESTING to me that they both measure like a $10K Bryston. Interesting is just interesting.

4k upconversion is in its infancy right now, so I would expect that the next generation of processors to do that better than the current models that offer that. (Not that most of us need such processing; indeed, given how far most people sit from their 1080p TVs, most of them don't even need 1080p.) They might also improve on the room correction automatic setup systems. That is just stuff that occurs to me off the top of my head; I am not someone in the business of designing audio gear, so I would expect that I am missing some things that they are busy working on that everyone will want who wishes to have the latest and best. (You know, people like you.)

I predict you will be getting rid of that Denon within 10 years, so what it does after that will not make any difference in your life. (I expect, though, that most of those Denons will last longer than that, if not abused. But I would expect the same thing about the cheaper processors you mention.) I am sure that Denon will come out with some new improved model long before that, and you will be itching to get it the moment you read about it. You know you want it even now!

Also, being reasonably priced and made in China does not necessarily make the product unreliable and with a short life. Nor does it mean that it is low quality. Back in the 1970's, people were prejudiced against Japanese gear the way that many are prejudiced against Chinese gear today. Some of that "cheap made in Japan" stuff still works well. The country of origin does not determine quality.

I have some Chinese speakers that have a fit and finish as good as any speakers I have ever seen, regardless of price. That they were reasonably priced (retail $1500/pair) does not make the fit and finish any less good than it is. They sound really good, too. Not as good as my Apogee Stage speakers, but that is a bit unfair, as the Apogee speakers retailed for more money (and are not as good for fit and finish).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

4k upconversion is in its infancy right now, so I would expect that the next generation of processors to do that better than the current models that offer that. (Not that most of us need such processing; indeed, given how far most people sit from their 1080p TVs, most of them don't even need 1080p.) They might also improve on the room correction automatic setup systems. That is just stuff that occurs to me off the top of my head; I am not someone in the business of designing audio gear, so I would expect that I am missing some things that they are busy working on that everyone will want who wishes to have the latest and best. (You know, people like you.)

I am actually completely happy with 1080P, and I never use room correction or any EQ/DSP.

 

[ahblaza]

One question, does the 975 have independant crossover for mains, center and surrounds or just one crossover for all speakers, probably a dumb question as I read and couldn't find that answer. Thanks, ATDG who didn't know you would never buy an Oulaw or Emotiva and a Bryston is inevitable
Cheers Jeff

Sratch that question, the answer is yes, I told you it was

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

ATDG who didn't know.... a Bryston is inevitable

I will fight the temptation.

 

[Adam]

I will fight the temptation.

Until...?

 

[PENG]

I will fight the temptation.

If you had read some of the reviews on the SP3 you wouldn't be able to fight. 3 dB and I can, as we don't believe in "fluff" words in those reviews, we are eenxxxxxxs.... I think they said never heard anything better.. Oh, once said James told them Bryston wouldn't put EQ in that thing because....(find out yourself) so you are on the same page with them, perhaps for slightly different reasons.

 

[Irvrobinson]

One question, does the 975 have independent crossover for mains, center and surrounds or just one crossover for all speakers, probably a dumb question as I read and couldn't find that answer.

Independent crossover settings for mains, centers, and surrounds.

 

[Steve81]

Once my wallet cools down a bit, this one is on my short list along with a 7125 amplifier. I'm a little put off by the lack of auto-calibration though. I don't necessarily care for a full on Audyssey implementation, but something to set distances, levels, and crossovers would be nice. Not a deal breaker, but an annoyance in 2013.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If you had read some of the reviews on the SP3 you wouldn't be able to fight. 3 dB and I can, as we don't believe in "fluff" words in those reviews, we are eenxxxxxxs.... I think they said never heard anything better.. Oh, once said James told them Bryston wouldn't put EQ in that thing because....(find out yourself) so you are on the same page with them, perhaps for slightly different reasons.

Gene measured the Denon AVP & the crosstalk was like -110dB. So screw Bryston.

Can anyone confirm that the Bryston is in fact fully balanced like the AVP-A1HD?

I assume it is fully balanced, but then again not all their amps are fully balanced.

As long as I can get Pure Direct at the end of the day, it's okay.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Until...?

Until they figure how to make a pre-pro w/ a crosstalk of better than -110dB.