Sealing set-screw type banana plugs with epoxy

[j_garcia]

I believe the question was adequately answered.

 

[slipperybidness]

I would agree if were were actually talking about connecting a steel contact to an aluminum one, or copper to aluminum outdoors, or using bare copper alone. But, sorry, that's not the case. No steel or aluminum mentioned, and as far as I can tell, we aren't outdoors. We have 24K gold, high point contact pressure screws, and then copper.

You are correct given the situations you cite, they just don't apply here. I would also point out that the electrolyte between the steel nails and aluminum siding (or any other outdoor dissimilar menials) is water.

Your thousands of connections pale by comparison to phone companies making billions, relatively low voltage, bare copper, non-plated, non-treated. The difference is, they are high contact point pressure, and not exposed to moisture, not typically outdoors.

The discussion was about trying to seal gold plated banana plugs against corrosion, I believe indoors, which is simply a non-issue.

When 2 different metals make contact with each other, a voltage is established between the 2 metals. That's how it works, and that is the basis for thermocouples. The voltage b/w the 2 metals is temperature-dependent, thus if you calibrate the thermocouple voltage readings against known temps, you get a useful measuring device.

Technically, water (meaning DI or ultra-pure water) is not an electrolyte. But, atmospheric water isn't exactly pure water, so it could act as an electrolyte in this case.

Bottom line, 2 different metals making contact will certainly corrode eventually.

 

[avengineer]

This reminds me of a joke:

A mathematician, a physicist and an engineer were in a gym. On the far opposite wall was a beautiful girl. They were told to walk towards her, moving every ten seconds until they moved half the previous distance. They were then asked to predict how long it would take until they could kiss the girl.

The mathematician said: "Never!" and threw up his hands and stormed out.
The physicist shook his head in sadness, and said: "In an infinite amount of time."
The engineer just smiled slightly, and said: "Well... in about two minutes, I'll be close enough for all practical purposes."

 

[Rickster71]

I would agree if were were actually talking about connecting a steel contact to an aluminum one, or copper to aluminum outdoors, or using bare copper alone. But, sorry, that's not the case. No steel or aluminum mentioned, and as far as I can tell, we aren't outdoors. We have 24K gold, high point contact pressure screws, and then copper.

I think you're assuming again.
The speaker connections on an AVR (or any connections for that matter) could be many different metals.
Some are gold plated, some are not. The internal pins on an RCA connector may not be gold plated.
While the banana plugs are gold plated, you're making assumptions about the metal into which the banana plug is inserted.

The name of the game is combating oxidation. Whether it be my chemical means or mechanical.

You are correct given the situations you cite, they just don't apply here. I would also point out that the electrolyte between the steel nails and aluminum siding (or any other outdoor dissimilar menials) is water.

You'll have to explain, how does water contact fasteners on installed aluminum siding?
Or to use your words, " immersed in an electrolyte and a DC voltage is applied"

Your thousands of connections pale by comparison to phone companies making billions, relatively low voltage, bare copper, non-plated, non-treated. The difference is, they are high contact point pressure, and not exposed to moisture, not typically outdoors.

The fact that you used punch block connections just bolsters my contention.
The name of the game is combating oxidation. Whether it be my chemical means or mechanical.
When you used the punch block example within this context. I knew then, you hadn't a clue.

 

[avengineer]

I think you're assuming again.
The speaker connections on an AVR (or any connections for that matter) could be many different metals.
Some are gold plated, some are not. The internal pins on an RCA connector may not be gold plated.
While the banana plugs are gold plated, you're making assumptions about the metal into which the banana plug is inserted.

Perhaps you should read my post more carefully. In this thread we are talking about the O.P.'s banana plugs specifically. The specific banana plugs we are discussing are 24K gold plated. I'm not assuming anything there, that's in the manufacturer's data. They will be inserted into a socket that will be plated with one of two materials, gold or nickel. Again, no assumptions, that's what they are. There are actually very few plating materials used for audio connectors, specifically four: gold, silver, nickel and tin. Tin and silver are never used in banana jacks. And frankly, you won't find much silver in an audio connector (guess why!). Yeah, I know, somebody's going to find the rare exception where there's a silver plated banana jack. Whatever.

RCA connectors have been mentioned exactly twice prior to this post in this thread. Once by me, when I suggested that the cost of gold RCA connectors was a worth while alternative to treating banana connectors, and once by you in the previous post. The OP wasn't discussing RCA connectors, and I only used the reference show a perhaps worthwhile alternative.

The name of the game is combating oxidation. Whether it be my chemical means or mechanical.

Ah. Something we agree on.

You'll have to explain, how does water contact fasteners on installed aluminum siding?

um....rain?

Or to use your words, " immersed in an electrolyte and a DC voltage is applied"

You are taking my comment out of context. The quote was, "Galvanic corrosion occurs when two dissimilar metals are immersed in an electrolyte and a DC voltage is applied creating ion migration." Do you take issue with that statement?

Here you go:Galvanic corrosion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The fact that you used punch block connections just bolsters my contention.

Hmmm . I'm not sure how to take that. You are angry with me for using punch blocks? Have you ever visited a radio station, TV station, or recording studio? I'm sorry if my use of punch blocks made you angry. But not so sorry as to avoid them in the future. I was installing an SAS Audio Routing System that handled both analog and AES/EBU signals at a broadcast facility. The manufacturer provided all inputs and outputs on a series of Krone blocks (you may google at will), which I'm darn glad of, because if I had to terminate all of that with gold plated XLR connectors I'd have had to lease more space in the building. Punch blocks are nice, high density, high reliability way of life in pro audio. And, they aren't gold plated...ever. And they achieve their reliability through (apologies in advance if I make you mad with this) high contact pressure along with a somewhat temporary insulation seal. Thats how they work. And, my few thousand connections don't hold a candle to what phone companies world wide have done, though they don't use Krone blocks, usually 66 blocks or 110. If you're having issues with high quality audio on a punch block, well, I hate to break it...in broadcast and pro audio, it's done all the time because it's cheap, fast and reliable. And, hold onto your seat...now we running high quality audio on Cat5, UTP...that's Unshielded Twisted Pair...and using a combination of 110 blocks and RJ45s. Works fine, highly reliable.

The name of the game is combating oxidation. Whether it be my chemical means or mechanical.
When you used the punch block example within this context. I knew then, you hadn't a clue.

We all know what we know, we know some of what we don't know, but there's a lot of what we don't know that we don't know.

Look, Rickster, I think we actually agree: oxidation is bad. We need to prevent it from getting in the way of signals. Where we seem to diverge is exactly under what conditions it gets in the way. I'll stick to my guns here: I've never had a speaker connection fail because of oxidation. Not gold plated, nor nickel plated, nor non-plated. Not spade, banana, screw, or spring-clip. I've also never had bare copper screwed into a banana plug (of any type of plating) fail because of oxidation, not with speaker level or low level audio. I have had RCA plugs/jacks fail because of oxidation, but in no case was either of the mating connectors gold plated, and in most cases, one of the connectors was cheap tin-plated. I've had gold plated card edge connectors fail, only to find that the gold plating had been worn off, or the socket was a low pressure, non-bifurcated socket.

I always hate it when guys cite there years of experience, it seems so prideful. I don't mean it that way here, please understand. I've been at this stuff professionally for 40+ years, and that's been my experience. However, if your experience with failed audio connections due to oxidation is otherwise, I'm more than happy to defer to the expert. But I'd appreciate the examples being real-world practical. It's of no relevance that a banana connector will oxidize to the point of non-conductivity after 100 years in a hostile environment. Something more like, "I had a gold plated banana plug with a copper wire inserted in it fail because of oxidation in two years, inside, air conditioned, and smoke-free". Or ten years. Or 25 years. How's that? That might actually mean something to people reading this. We can beat theory to death, but it doesn't mean much if not applied practically. That was, after all, the point of the joke.

 

[Rickster71]

......I always hate it when guys cite there years of experience, it seems so prideful......

Exactly!!
We seem to be agreeing more and more.


I took one look at your post #12....or dissertation.
Seemed you wanted to impress all involved.

While on the other hand I simply tried to help the OP.

Look at my post #13

I answered the OP's question in two short sentences.


Also for the record.
Water doesn't contact the fasteners on aluminum siding or any siding for that matter.
The fasteners are covered with the subsequent row or lap above.


Never said an oxidized connection will fail.
What will happen is that the connection's resistance will necessarily increase.


Are we done yet?

 

[avengineer]

Exactly!!
We seem to be agreeing more and more.

That's a relief.

I took one look at your post #12....or dissertation.
Seemed you wanted to impress all involved.

I have no need to impress anyone, especially on a forum. I thought it might be nice if someone found benefit from what little knowledge I have to share, since I share it in the spirit of promoting truth in audio. If that's not the case, and my dissertations are not appreciated, I'll refrain. Probably will anyway, since I really don 't have time for this kind of thing. Talk about good intentions missing the mark! (probably should insert the train wreck photo here...again)<insert train="" wreck="" photo="" here...again="">

While on the other hand I simply tried to help the OP.

Look at my post #13

I answered the OP's question in two short sentences.

I guess if that actually answered the OP, I wouldn't have responded. Post #13, IMHO, offered no practical information, other that there might be a potential problem, and an easier but unspecified solution might exist.

Also for the record.
Water doesn't contact the fasteners on aluminum siding or any siding for that matter.
The fasteners are covered with the subsequent row or lap above.

I learn something every day. Thanks for clarifying. Perhaps we should now leave aluminum siding out of an audio connector discussion.

Never said an oxidized connection will fail.
What will happen is that the connection's resistance will necessarily increase.

I would agree an increase in connector resistance wouldn't necessarily always be considered a failure. But if it's too small to be considered a failure, why are we even talking about it at all? On the other hand, if an increase in resistance causes some audible effect, then perhaps we might agree that a connector with that property is failing at the intended design goal?

[deep breath] Do we now have to define exactly how much connector resistance (in the OP's application only!) is enough to be considered a failure?

Are we done yet?

Wouldn't that be nice.</insert>

 

[Grador]

<insert train="" wreck="" photo="" here...again="">Wouldn't that be nice.</insert>

It would be nice, and it starts with either of you leaving it as is...

 

[Alex2507]

It would be nice, and it starts with either of you leaving it as is...

I think Rick should drive to his house and kick his @$$ but hey ... whatever.

 

[markw]

I just love when someone incepts audio nervosa in some overzealous newbie when he comes here for simple, real-world advice.

 

[avengineer]

Ok, sorry all. Apologies all around, including to Rickster71. This clearly got out of hand, and I'll take responsibility. I'm out.

 

[locomotive282]

If you really want to seal the connection just dip it in candle wax in effect potting them. Years ago entire amps were sealed in paraffin wax. Wax is: cheap and easy, a good insulator, prevents oxidation, resists moisture, absorbs heat, comes off when you need to redo the connections.