Just Received a Bid for a Home Theater System - PLEASE HELP

E

Elysium246

Audiophyte
I recently received a bid from a company to setup/automate my 3 Television media room and the proposed price was astounding! I would appreciate any/all thoughts you may have about what they suggested in terms of quality, price, etc:

AUDIO:
- Paradigm Millennia 20 LCR
- Paradigm Millennia ADP Surround Sound Rear
- Paradigm AMS-100R
- Paradigm DSP-3200 Subwoofer

AUTOMATION:
- Savant HST-4001 (Host Controller)
- Savant SSC-0007 (Smart Control)

HARDWARE HOUSING:
- Snap AV Strong 21U Rack Package

And then all sorts of wiring, materials, etc. I very much appreciate any/all input in advance. I am waiting for 2 other bids from different companies, but just can't get over the proposed price of nearly $20,000!
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
It helps if you include the pricing that you are getting so it can be compared to something else.

It's important to understand the most A/V companies are selling protected product and there is a premium associated with not just the product you are getting, but the service and support that goes along with it.

Now, the Paradigm gear is well respected I believe, but is several thousand dollars for sure. The Savant gear is a Control4 or Crestron/AMX competitor. Very good as well.

TRUE equipment racks always tend to suprise people on cost. The rack shevles, cooling, and the extensive time necessary to properly wire a rack can take quite a while to do properly and has a labor cost associated with it. Not cheap.

But, the big cost on something like this I would expect to be the labor associated with wiring your system (behind walls), building gear, programming, and making sure it is all put together nicely and works very well and is covered under some sort of service warranty for the first year or so.

I would certainly wait for the other bids to come in, but you really should setup a budget and be realistic about your expectations for what you should be getting for that budget. At a professional labor rate for EXPERIENCE AND QUALIFIED technicians, for a company which is fully insured to work in your home, you should expect to pay what you would for any other professional service, which can range from $60 to $100 an hour.

I just wired a fourteen zone system and it took about 100 hours of labor to get all the wiring in place. About $7,000 of labor for just the wiring and not one piece of gear is part of that and no wiring has been done, and no programming has been touched. So, I can't imagine that the $20,000 cost is for those pieces you listed, but includes the full wiring and integration into your existing 3 television media room, or perhaps the full installation of such with a lot of equipment you intend to provide.
 
E

Elysium246

Audiophyte
Thanks, BMXTRIX. Very helpful advice and much appreciated. Please see below for the details I was quoted. I would appreciate your follow-up thoughts to below (and anyone else out there):

- Snap AV Strong 21U Rack Package -- $1,020
- Furman MX-8x2 8 outlet power conditioner -- $198
- Apple TV 3rd Generation -- $99
- Netgear 8 port Gigabit switch -- $79
- Liberty 6 Meter HDMI (x3) -- $82 -- $246
- Liberty 2 Meter HDMI (x5) -- $39 -- $195
- XANTEXH 283M Blink Mouse Emitter (x12) -- $15 -- $180
- Integra DTR-40.4 7.2 Channel Network A/V Receiver -- $1,200
- Wyrestorm SP0104 1x4 HDMI Splitter (x2) -- $199 -- $398
- Fixed Mount with 0-5degree Tilt (x3) -- $279 -- $837
- Paradigm Millenia 20 - LCR (x3) -- $579 -- $1,737
- Paradigm Millenia ADP Surround Sound (x2) -- $749 -- $1,498
- Paradigm AMS-100R - In-Ceilin/In-Wall -- $219
- Paradigm DSP-3200 Subwoofer -- $849
- Materials, Interconnects, Etc -- $175
- AirPort Extreme Base Station -- $179
- Savant SSC-0007-10 Smart Control (x2) -- $700 -- $1,400
- Savant HST-4001-00 Savant Host Controller (1U Rack Space) -- $2,800
- Installation and Programming -- $5,000

Discount (5%) -- ($956.86)
Tax (8%) -- $1,130

TOTAL: $19,311
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
If the equipment rack has custom shelves or a furniture like finish, then this price seems very reasonable for the rack.

The following items seem very much in line with typical value, pricing, and requirements: Furman, AppleTV, Netgear, IR Emitters, Integra, HDMI splitter, speakers, AirPort.

Now, the items that I didn't mention aren't necessarily out of line, but they deserve some talking about.

1. The 18' HDMI cables are expensive. They likely offer good profit to the company, but there is some negotiating room there for sure. It may not seem like much, but they can use different cables that will work just as well. Perhaps buy your own cables and have them use them instead if they can't offer you something more reasonably priced.

2. The IR emitters are reasonably priced, but you actually have 12 pieces of gear that must be IR controlled? 3 TVs, Integra, AppleTV, and what else? Do you have a lot of existing A/V gear that you are trying to integrate into this system? That list actually matters because it affects the rest of stuff.

3. I'm not sure of their design, or your final goal, but the use of HDMI splitters can be very good, or very questionable. But, I would expect them to make sense and the price is in line with HDMI splitters which actually work reliably.

4. The wall mount is overpriced for a standard tilting wall mount unless it is a Chief model. If you have 3 TVs side by side, then I would probably go with the Chief LTMU mount, which is rightly priced at $279. These mounts offer fine tuning of the display height and leveling which means your final look is exactly perfect.

5. Materials budget is fine, perhaps even a bit low IMO, but it is fine.

6. The Savant gear is the control system to run the show. It isn't great, it isn't terrible, but you will want to do some research on whether or not that it TRULY what you want. As with all control systems, once you buy into it, you tend to stick with it for years. Savant is an advanced system similar to Control4, but it is template driven, which means that it is not programmed by installers, but by Savant, then it is 'configured' by the installers. It still requires expertise, but it is almost like a glorified Harmony remote. Does a lot more, is a lot smarter, but if you want to do something outside the box it can be difficult to achieve. Still, the price is in line with a quality control system. Especially with one which needs to control 12 IR devices.

7. Labor is questionable since you didn't really mention your scope of work. Which leads me to more questions...

You touched, very briefly, on your requirements, but you didn't really talk about what you have, and what you intend to do, and what you need others to do, and what your final goal is.

You own 3 TVs already?
What size are they?
What brand/make/model?
Where are they going? On drywall? Wood?
Is the installer going to wire in the new televisions?
Does wiring need to be done behind drywall?
Does speaker wiring need to be done?
Do the installers need to cut into drywall for other reasons?
What are your other sources? I only see two IR devices in the proposal (AppleTV/AV Receiver), so besides your 3 TVs, what are the other sources that need to be controlled?
What are your personal wishes for this system to do? Do you want any source to any destination? Do you want one touch switching from one device to another? iPad control? Hard button remote control?

I typically speak to people about how important hard button remotes are for the 'average' user to simply use a system, but your room is far more complex than that which may make it tough to keep simple, still, a single remote to use one display may make a lot of sense to have in the system.

Now, you need to keep the following in mind:
1. TAX IS NOT FOR THEM! Knock $1,130 of the price right now. You live in a state with a 8% sales tax and that is something that the installer doesn't get and is something you will be paying regardless of system.
2. It does appear that tax has been added to the entire amount, instead of just the materials portion. Typically labor is not taxed. You may want to ask them about this since that will knock $400 off. Look at the other proposals to see how things are taxed!
3. At $80 an hour, you have about 60 hours of labor associated with this installation. That seems to be in line with the amount of work required for a neat and clean final system. It may even be low depending on your expectations.
4. There is wiggle room. Bottom line is that if you go elsewhere and get pricing on the exact same gear, you can probably find it for less and you can negotiate. But, if these guys are GOOD, then they won't negotiate much before they just walk away. At some point profits become so low, that it doesn't make sense to take the project. How much you want to push price is up to you, but you can likely get another $500 or so off the price.
5. Equipment choice... Did they tell you why they chose that equipment? Is it appropriate for your space? Did they tell you why? Paradigm speakers aren't exactly cheap, but they are very 'family room' friendly. Is that what you want?
6. I would likely go with a different subwoofer, but that's because I think there are far better subwoofers out there that don't need to be from the same guys that make the speakers. Far more bang for your buck and likely won't be sold by the guy installing the system.

Did you have a budget in mind for things? I'm guessing you were thinking it would be about $10,000 maybe and that's what you were targeting for. If that IS what you were expecting, with the need to wire and hang 3 displays, get you a quality remote control system, and put in speakers and the rest then I would have to say it is unrealistic. I think that you may be able to do it for $15,000, but that the system that is listed is decent and in line with the money spent for a good A/V company. They SHOULD be a good A/V company though, and not a sales guy who doesn't really know what the heck he is talking about.
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
The sad thing is that the system won't really sound or look any better than a user-installed $5000 system and it doesn't even include a display. Can't help but wonder what a blink mouse emitter is. I'll look it up in my search engine. I also can't help but wonder why an HDMI splitter should cost $200. This is quote for people with plenty of money who don't sweat the details, I guess.
 
E

Elysium246

Audiophyte
BMXTRIX, thank you for such a thoughtful response. I can't thank you enough for taking the time to provide such detail and will definitely be taking everything you said into account.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
The sad thing is that the system won't really sound or look any better than a user-installed $5000 system and it doesn't even include a display. Can't help but wonder what a blink mouse emitter is. I'll look it up in my search engine. I also can't help but wonder why an HDMI splitter should cost $200. This is quote for people with plenty of money who don't sweat the details, I guess.
A few things...

1. A user isn't going to get a Savant system or Control 4, or Crestron, or AMX which is the level that Savant is at (or trying to be at), so there is no remote which a user can quickly install that will work reliably and provide a good user interface.

2. A blink mouse emitter is the Xantech IR emitter. It is called a blink emitter by them and has been called that for years. It blinks an IR signal from it. Not sure if there is some OTHER kind of IR emitter out there since they all seem to work similarly.
Xantech 283D Design Mouse IR Emitter (283D) from Solid Signal
They run from $11 to $20 bucks online plus shipping typically.

3. The receiver and speakers are kind of what they are. You may find a better value out there on your own, but it will require some leg work and won't include any type of service. Most installers won't touch much in the way of client furnished equipment.

Don't get me wrong, but it is like telling your mechanic that you can go buy the parts for your car for half the price he sells them for and then wondering why it doesn't cost you $50 to do a $500 repair. The answer is because he has the tools and knows what the heck he is doing. Yes, you can get a system for $5,000. But, can you get the system, fully installed, that meets the user's needs for $5,000?

Doesn't sound like it to me, but every BUYER has a responsibility to make their expected budget as clear as possible along with their requirements and expectations. I might have ever recommended a system with nicer speakers in it. My cabling would be less, and my control system would be better, but less money. The end price though may have been very similar. But, if I were told I had $15,000 to work with, then I would aim for that number.
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
A few things...

1. A user isn't going to get a Savant system or Control 4, or Crestron, or AMX which is the level that Savant is at (or trying to be at), so there is no remote which a user can quickly install that will work reliably and provide a good user interface.

2. A blink mouse emitter is the Xantech IR emitter. It is called a blink emitter by them and has been called that for years. It blinks an IR signal from it. Not sure if there is some OTHER kind of IR emitter out there since they all seem to work similarly.
Xantech 283D Design Mouse IR Emitter (283D) from Solid Signal
They run from $11 to $20 bucks online plus shipping typically.

3. The receiver and speakers are kind of what they are. You may find a better value out there on your own, but it will require some leg work and won't include any type of service. Most installers won't touch much in the way of client furnished equipment.

Don't get me wrong, but it is like telling your mechanic that you can go buy the parts for your car for half the price he sells them for and then wondering why it doesn't cost you $50 to do a $500 repair. The answer is because he has the tools and knows what the heck he is doing. Yes, you can get a system for $5,000. But, can you get the system, fully installed, that meets the user's needs for $5,000?

Doesn't sound like it to me, but every BUYER has a responsibility to make their expected budget as clear as possible along with their requirements and expectations. I might have ever recommended a system with nicer speakers in it. My cabling would be less, and my control system would be better, but less money. The end price though may have been very similar. But, if I were told I had $15,000 to work with, then I would aim for that number.
I'm not fighting with you. In fact I once owned a two channel system that cost $40,000. I know better than to do that now. I know nothing of home control products so I can't even comment on that. But for plain old audio reproduction it seems more than should be necessary to get state of the art sound. For the $20,000 I would put in much better speakers as you suggested. I'm a small businessman and I understand the desire and need to make a profit. As I said, it just seemed extreme for an audio system in this day and age.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
It helps if you include the pricing that you are getting so it can be compared to something else.

It's important to understand the most A/V companies are selling protected product and there is a premium associated with not just the product you are getting, but the service and support that goes along with it.

Now, the Paradigm gear is well respected I believe, but is several thousand dollars for sure. The Savant gear is a Control4 or Crestron/AMX competitor. Very good as well.

TRUE equipment racks always tend to suprise people on cost. The rack shevles, cooling, and the extensive time necessary to properly wire a rack can take quite a while to do properly and has a labor cost associated with it. Not cheap.

But, the big cost on something like this I would expect to be the labor associated with wiring your system (behind walls), building gear, programming, and making sure it is all put together nicely and works very well and is covered under some sort of service warranty for the first year or so.

I would certainly wait for the other bids to come in, but you really should setup a budget and be realistic about your expectations for what you should be getting for that budget. At a professional labor rate for EXPERIENCE AND QUALIFIED technicians, for a company which is fully insured to work in your home, you should expect to pay what you would for any other professional service, which can range from $60 to $100 an hour.

I just wired a fourteen zone system and it took about 100 hours of labor to get all the wiring in place. About $7,000 of labor for just the wiring and not one piece of gear is part of that and no wiring has been done, and no programming has been touched. So, I can't imagine that the $20,000 cost is for those pieces you listed, but includes the full wiring and integration into your existing 3 television media room, or perhaps the full installation of such with a lot of equipment you intend to provide.
You know as well as I do- even the FNG's time is billed at the usual rate, although some places discount the labor rate for a two-person job slightly because they may share the van and parts/supplies.

I would want to see an itemized bid, although they may use a program like SRS or DTools, so the items in the bid probably have a part/model #, description and the cost with the cable drop as a separate line item.

I would also ask if they intend to load the rack at their shop, or assemble/configure it on-site. For that price, I think they may stage the system and make sure the control functions work properly before delivery.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
If the equipment rack has custom shelves or a furniture like finish, then this price seems very reasonable for the rack.

The following items seem very much in line with typical value, pricing, and requirements: Furman, AppleTV, Netgear, IR Emitters, Integra, HDMI splitter, speakers, AirPort.

Now, the items that I didn't mention aren't necessarily out of line, but they deserve some talking about.

1. The 18' HDMI cables are expensive. They likely offer good profit to the company, but there is some negotiating room there for sure. It may not seem like much, but they can use different cables that will work just as well. Perhaps buy your own cables and have them use them instead if they can't offer you something more reasonably priced.

2. The IR emitters are reasonably priced, but you actually have 12 pieces of gear that must be IR controlled? 3 TVs, Integra, AppleTV, and what else? Do you have a lot of existing A/V gear that you are trying to integrate into this system? That list actually matters because it affects the rest of stuff.

3. I'm not sure of their design, or your final goal, but the use of HDMI splitters can be very good, or very questionable. But, I would expect them to make sense and the price is in line with HDMI splitters which actually work reliably.

4. The wall mount is overpriced for a standard tilting wall mount unless it is a Chief model. If you have 3 TVs side by side, then I would probably go with the Chief LTMU mount, which is rightly priced at $279. These mounts offer fine tuning of the display height and leveling which means your final look is exactly perfect.

5. Materials budget is fine, perhaps even a bit low IMO, but it is fine.

6. The Savant gear is the control system to run the show. It isn't great, it isn't terrible, but you will want to do some research on whether or not that it TRULY what you want. As with all control systems, once you buy into it, you tend to stick with it for years. Savant is an advanced system similar to Control4, but it is template driven, which means that it is not programmed by installers, but by Savant, then it is 'configured' by the installers. It still requires expertise, but it is almost like a glorified Harmony remote. Does a lot more, is a lot smarter, but if you want to do something outside the box it can be difficult to achieve. Still, the price is in line with a quality control system. Especially with one which needs to control 12 IR devices.

7. Labor is questionable since you didn't really mention your scope of work. Which leads me to more questions...

You touched, very briefly, on your requirements, but you didn't really talk about what you have, and what you intend to do, and what you need others to do, and what your final goal is.

You own 3 TVs already?
What size are they?
What brand/make/model?
Where are they going? On drywall? Wood?
Is the installer going to wire in the new televisions?
Does wiring need to be done behind drywall?
Does speaker wiring need to be done?
Do the installers need to cut into drywall for other reasons?
What are your other sources? I only see two IR devices in the proposal (AppleTV/AV Receiver), so besides your 3 TVs, what are the other sources that need to be controlled?
What are your personal wishes for this system to do? Do you want any source to any destination? Do you want one touch switching from one device to another? iPad control? Hard button remote control?

I typically speak to people about how important hard button remotes are for the 'average' user to simply use a system, but your room is far more complex than that which may make it tough to keep simple, still, a single remote to use one display may make a lot of sense to have in the system.

Now, you need to keep the following in mind:
1. TAX IS NOT FOR THEM! Knock $1,130 of the price right now. You live in a state with a 8% sales tax and that is something that the installer doesn't get and is something you will be paying regardless of system.
2. It does appear that tax has been added to the entire amount, instead of just the materials portion. Typically labor is not taxed. You may want to ask them about this since that will knock $400 off. Look at the other proposals to see how things are taxed!
3. At $80 an hour, you have about 60 hours of labor associated with this installation. That seems to be in line with the amount of work required for a neat and clean final system. It may even be low depending on your expectations.
4. There is wiggle room. Bottom line is that if you go elsewhere and get pricing on the exact same gear, you can probably find it for less and you can negotiate. But, if these guys are GOOD, then they won't negotiate much before they just walk away. At some point profits become so low, that it doesn't make sense to take the project. How much you want to push price is up to you, but you can likely get another $500 or so off the price.
5. Equipment choice... Did they tell you why they chose that equipment? Is it appropriate for your space? Did they tell you why? Paradigm speakers aren't exactly cheap, but they are very 'family room' friendly. Is that what you want?
6. I would likely go with a different subwoofer, but that's because I think there are far better subwoofers out there that don't need to be from the same guys that make the speakers. Far more bang for your buck and likely won't be sold by the guy installing the system.

Did you have a budget in mind for things? I'm guessing you were thinking it would be about $10,000 maybe and that's what you were targeting for. If that IS what you were expecting, with the need to wire and hang 3 displays, get you a quality remote control system, and put in speakers and the rest then I would have to say it is unrealistic. I think that you may be able to do it for $15,000, but that the system that is listed is decent and in line with the money spent for a good A/V company. They SHOULD be a good A/V company though, and not a sales guy who doesn't really know what the heck he is talking about.
I would ask about post-sale support, too. Some companies seem to disappear once the job is done or, they become "busy" if problems with the system's operation occur.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
The sad thing is that the system won't really sound or look any better than a user-installed $5000 system and it doesn't even include a display. Can't help but wonder what a blink mouse emitter is. I'll look it up in my search engine. I also can't help but wonder why an HDMI splitter should cost $200. This is quote for people with plenty of money who don't sweat the details, I guess.
But the acts of cabling, setup, programming and equipment installation done by a DIYer aren't usually assigned a cost by the DIYer unless they just want a reason to feel like they prevented someone from getting their money. Ever do something for yourself and later, find that you did the work for about $8/hr if you had billed yourself at the same price as the bidder? It's likely that a contractor can do most work in a fraction of the time it takes a DIYer, unless said DIYer has done it themselves.

Blink emitter is the little piece that's mounted over the input sensor- some call it a blink emitter, some just say emitter and some call it an IR bug.

HDMI splitters aren't like an analog audio splitter- HDMI doesn't tolerate signal losses and if you know anything about EDID, you wouldn't ask that question. Ever seen equipment that uses HDMI and has intermittent picture during/after switching to another source and sometimes, it happens when the switching has already finished? How about a combination of equipment that works fine when the source is connected to the TV/Projector, but isn't reliable when connected through an AVR, pre/pro or some kind of switch? That's usually an EDID issue. Also, if the HDMI is connected to TVs with different resolution, the HDMI signal is "dumbed down" to the lowest resolution. If it wasn't, the TV that can't do 1080i/p will look bad, if it works at all.

You wouldn't be able to buy all of that equipment for $5K and if you were to add all of the specialty tools/equipment a contractor needs, you would have to add that to the final cost. Do you own an HDMI (or other cable) tester? Probably not. Do you go to ongoing training for this stuff? Probably not. Do you need to outfit a van and provide tools, hire installers, pay for insurance/bonding/advertising/admin/rent/utilities etc? Probably not. Can't get all of those from Amazon, can you?
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I'm not fighting with you. In fact I once owned a two channel system that cost $40,000. I know better than to do that now. I know nothing of home control products so I can't even comment on that. But for plain old audio reproduction it seems more than should be necessary to get state of the art sound. For the $20,000 I would put in much better speakers as you suggested. I'm a small businessman and I understand the desire and need to make a profit. As I said, it just seemed extreme for an audio system in this day and age.
How much does it take to install a $40K system when it's only for two channel and then, it's not dealing with video? Plop things where they'll live, connect the cables, turn it on and putz with the speaker locations (which can take a lot of fine tuning).

You seem to be looking at this bid as only the equipment cost with nothing allowed for hardware and other things. Who tweaks the TVs? Who loads the rack, makes the connections, labels the cables, laces it and makes sure it works? They may have "wire monkeys", but even they need to be trained, paid, insured, transported, etc.

If I sat here and thought about all of the bad connections I have repaired, re-routed and replaced- I would be doing that for a long time. I'm doing some work on a boat that had equipment installed by one place and then, someone else got in and installed more. Whoever did the 12V installation used multiple power wires for the amplifiers/controller and associated electronics. The result- noise and a loud thump that occasionally blows the main audio system fuse. The remotes were programmed by someone who didn't know how to use the URC IR database or how to program macros. Then, they learned the wrong code for the DVD switching in the forward berth, so I need to fix that. If you think that splitter is expensive, this boat has a 4 in/2 out HDMI matrix that listed for $1200.

Can't critique a bid unless everything is considered.
 
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