Can you hear a difference in Sound between Audio Amplifiers?

[cpp]

I think some of us just end up buying what is in our budget regardless of what we believe.

so true the first priority is stay within your means which equals lots of shopping and forum advice

If I were a billionaire, I would own $100,000 monoblocks.

what do you mean "IF",

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

This survey and every survey is just interesting and entertaining. I think it will end up favoring the amps-sound-different camp.

I think we also need another survey.

...To see how many people favor Emotiva & budget amps vs ATI (Theta, B&K, Cary, Lexicon, & clones), Parasound, NAD, Anthem, Adcom, Sunfire, Rotel, Classe, etc.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

so true the first priority is stay within your means which equals lots of shopping and forum advice

what do you mean "IF",

Oh, yeah, in my fantasy world, I am a billionaire who is a playboy by day, and Superman/Wolverine/Hulk (no weaknesses of course) by night.

 

[RichB]

I doubt anyone would be upset by this thread. I did make one point in the beginning, that the poll would have been more telling if the question is more specific than just asking if amps sound different. If a person answer the question without making assumptions such as operating well within their designed limits, etc., then the answer should invariably be yes they can sound different. As it is now the numbers are meaningless to me because I am not a mind reader.

Even if the poll said "operating within its limits" would it really have had more meaning.
I suppose if everything that is measurable is measured, then you could know.

With Class-A and Class A/B the art may be there.
With new classes of amps, it is fine to look for things that trip-up A/B amps. IMD etc., but what about other measurements that are peculiar to those designs? No one worried about IMD before switching amps.

In audio, there seems no point so straight forward and simple that cannot be argued.
Take power and speaker cables for example...

With amps, I do believe that amps technologies are all flawed and those flaws can differ from type to type.
When Class-B came out, folks listened to them and found them wanting. Later they found ways to measure those flaws and correct them.

I owned Sunfire for years and years, they are great amps.
This time I went with the ATI3005 because it is a great amp and a good value and this is a classic design that is very well implemented.

Trust me, if there were a 5 channel Class-Z amp that had that kind of clean power, was 98% efficient and sounded great, and cost a grand, I would be on it like white on rice

That is why I fully support a multi-amp, multi-speaker type shootout.
No easy task. I like the volume turned up once and a while.
I know after 15 minutes, my ears are complete mush

- Rich

 

[RichB]

I think we also need another survey.

...To see how many people favor Emotiva & budget amps vs ATI (Theta, B&K, Cary, Lexicon, & clones), Parasound, NAD, Anthem, Adcom, Sunfire, Rotel, Classe, etc.

Trouble maker

- Rich

 

[RichB]

So I think some of us just end up buying what is in our budget regardless of what we believe.

Exactly!

This is how it went for me:

After some trials in my house, I decided that I really liked the Outlaw sound and I liked the way the company operates.
There is a budget, so I set the limit at 3K but I wanted to spend less.

OK, $3K limit Class-AB. Decided.

Next, I have limited space, 2 amps max and the design must adhere to WAF (Wife approval factor) standards. Also, I want it to run cool and not waste power in standby. A bugaboo of mine.

Research time. Read all the reviews and threads that I can.
See what makes sense.

With all of the above it came down to Emotiva, Outlaw, ATI, and Parasound (once I found out Parasoung came in black. Their web folks need serious help ).

Revels like clean power, so it came to specs and construction: power supply, capacitance, output devices, slew rate, damping factor.
To what degree does each matter? Hell if I know.

More reading...

I decided against Emotiva because, I would like the amp to be a bit more efficient. I thought the XPA-2/XPA3 would work but they were a bit power hungry. I did not want two amps idling at 100 watts each.

So, it came down to ATI and Parasound.
If you want beauty, Parasound.
If you want Iron and power: ATI.

ATI was American made had better protection circuitry.
The American version of a Russian Rocket.

I got to test durability in my amp shootout when I plugged the Outlaw in and it arced. It tripped the protection in the amp and my breaker.
The fuse less design worked great. I have kids. This is a great feature.

So that is a long winded description of how many factors went into my selection. No wonder, folks just go to their dealer and buy what they are told.


- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Trouble maker

- Rich

Probably. I try to do my part. I probably have an evil hidden agenda somewhere in my mind that I'm not fully aware yet (evil laugh) .

 

[RichB]

Probably. I try to do my part. I probably have an evil hidden agenda somewhere in my mind that I'm not fully aware yet (evil laugh) .

and wrings hands...

- Rich

 

[M Code]

Hmmm..
The audiophiles can have their big power amps.
I will stick with my Bose Wave radio @ 3.5W per channel...
It has great bass and transparent highs...

Just my $0.02...

 

[3db]

May apologies Accudeftechguy as you've probably seen many studies on placebo affect. There is now a nocebo affect as well.

Wind turbine syndrome: Debunking a disease that may be a nocebo effect. - Slate Magazine


The mind is very powerful and can make us imagine things that are or are not there. That is why I'm really hung up on SBT and measured data. If there are audible differences, then its measureable. If there are no difference in measurements or the measurements are such that they fall well below the threshold of hearing between two amps, then there is no audible differences. The preference of one amp over another then relies on other factors but sound isn't one of them.

 

[RichB]

Hmmm..
The audiophiles can have their big power amps.
I will stick with my Bose Wave radio @ 3.5W per channel...
It has great bass and transparent highs...

Just my $0.02...

It's not just audiophiles, but it is predominately a male preference .

- Rich

 

[Irvrobinson]

If there are audible differences, then its measurable. If there are no difference in measurements or the measurements are such that they fall well below the threshold of hearing between two amps, then there is no audible differences. The preference of one amp over another then relies on other factors but sound isn't one of them.

I couldn't agree more, but finding the right measurements is another issue. Static, single frequency tests into resistive loads may not be descriptive enough. On the other hand, I do think the simple measurements we normally see, like frequency response sweeps and THD curves explain why it is very difficult to discern differences between amplifiers in comparison tests. The only question in my mind is whether or not the simple tests tell us enough to say, yup, all amps really do sound alike in actual use for everyone. I'm not convinced, but I am doubtful that comparison tests with switching back and forth will reveal any new knowledge.

 

[3db]

I agree with you Irv that simple resistive load tests simply isn't enough to test an amplifier with. However, I do feel that the extensive tests done at Audioholics which includes some impulse and step waveform tests will be enough to discern differences in sound if the test differences are in the audible range.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

May apologies Accudeftechguy as you've probably seen many studies on placebo affect. There is now a nocebo affect as well.

Wind turbine syndrome: Debunking a disease that may be a nocebo effect. - Slate Magazine


The mind is very powerful and can make us imagine things that are or are not there. That is why I'm really hung up on SBT and measured data. If there are audible differences, then its measureable. If there are no difference in measurements or the measurements are such that they fall well below the threshold of hearing between two amps, then there is no audible differences. The preference of one amp over another then relies on other factors but sound isn't one of them.

I'm with you.

The mind is powerful. Like Professor Charles Xavier.

 

[Gordonj]

I'm with you.

The mind is powerful. Like Professor Charles Xavier.

Yes indeed. However, any component you insert in the audio path, including amps, effects the sound and make an audible difference. Now being able to show that "colored" sound in a test form on a scope or in specs, well, there is the problem.... I understand and appreciate where you guys are coming form, I do. But I just disagree. As much as everyone looks at specs to compare things, sometimes there is art in this science and that is what makes it so fun, the art part of it all.

 

[jinjuku]

This is a thread where many feel passionately that well designed amps do not sound different. Bad news for B&M's.

- Rich

I would say even: Not different enough. If the A/B Push-Pull circuit was patented in 1937 at Westinghouse then I think 76 years has sorted all the sundry problems out. It's reasonable conclusion that if a room full of computers put a man on moon now is absolutely outdone by a postage stamp sized CPU all driven with 1.4V of juice, well something as crass (in comparison) as an amplifier has been pretty well sorted out.

There is a point of diminishing returns and that it is quickly reached. While I believe $10/20/30k of amp can give one bragging rights I'm not so sure it gives much else based on my experience.

 

[Pyrrho]

Yes indeed. However, any component you insert in the audio path, including amps, effects the sound and make an audible difference. ...

No. Any component in the path may affect the sound, but it does not follow that the effect makes an audible difference. To be audible, the difference must be more than just what is barely measurable. And some differences might not even be measurable.

Think of sticking two different wires in the signal path. And to not lose ourselves in trivia, let us say that we are talking about speaker wire. The wire matters for the sound (without it, you get no sound). But it does not follow that every difference in wire, even if measurable, will make an audible difference in the sound. Whether something is audible or not can be tested, though the people who wish to believe in magic BS often suppose that no real testing of anything is possible, and that people are to just judge things subjectively. For those people, I refer them to my earlier post for the links on something that is not audio, but is relevant to the fact that people are not measuring devices:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/amps-pre-pros-receivers/84632-can-you-hear-difference-sound-between-audio-amplifiers-7.html#post958338

 

[PENG]

Now being able to show that "colored" sound in a test form on a scope or in specs, well, there is the problem.... I understand and appreciate where you guys are coming form, I do. But I just disagree. As much as everyone looks at specs to compare things, sometimes there is art in this science and that is what makes it so fun, the art part of it all.

Disagree all you want, amps are designed by engineers/designers who are not artist, musicians composers are. They do rely on instrumentation/measurements to fine tune and verify their designs, not on people. There is little room for art in electronic circuitry.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If AH does a single-blinded test involving 100 subjects and the results unequivocally show that amps sound the same, would most people believe it?

I would believe whatever the results show.

 

[RichB]

Disagree all you want, amps are designed by engineers/designers who are not artist, musicians composers are. They do rely on instrumentation/measurements to fine tune and verify their designs, not on people. There is little room for art in electronic circuitry.

Therefore, all amps are created equal. QED.

This does not help folks on looking for value decide if they should buy an Emotiva XPA-5 versus an Outlaw 7500? They have similar power ratings. Power ratings are similar but power supplies, capacitance, and output devices are favor the Outlaw. Does that matter?

For most, the decision is not between Mark Levinson and Parasound but on the much lower end where the difference may be greater. I am not sure how a shootout helps folks select the right product.

- Rich