Can you hear a difference in Sound between Audio Amplifiers?

[jinjuku]

I am new here but I am having are hard time understanding the culture.
This is a thread begins with a poll.

You spend some effort explaining your experiences and folks want to know if you can prove that you are blind but not deaf.

Interesting

- Rich

Actually we just want to point out where such tests could be erroneous and the end user blissfully unaware, but super excited, about their 'upgrade'. I could take any competently designed amp with ~ same ratings, increase it's sensitivity to produce 3dB more output for a given input and pull gramps off the street and have him speaking audiophileease about that said amp vs another.

 

[RichB]

Actually we just want to point out where such tests could be erroneous and the end user blissfully unaware, but super excited, about their 'upgrade'. I could take any competently designed amp with ~ same ratings, increase it's sensitivity to produce 3dB more output for a given input and pull gramps off the street and have him speaking audiophileease about that said amp vs another.

I am also tired of review where amps have "heft and air".
That is why I put Audioholics on the top because of the extensive measurements.

I think there is less reason to believe that class A/B amps with similar specs sound different.
When first introduced, they had issues unique to that design.

Other types of amps mere perform better at some things but worse at others.
The first inkling come from listening. Then if something sounds wrong but measure right.
A new measurement may be needed for that technology.

In the display world, you can tune a Plasma and LCD to measure grayscale, color points to be within a Delta difference that is not "perceptible".
However, I can always tell a Plasma from and LED.

- Rich

 

[M Code]

So true, I think it has to do with marketing with reviewers assisting the advertising market with "positives' vs NO negative reviews on cables and what gets me is when a person spends $1000.00 of dollars plus on speaker cable and interconnects when their system including speakers doesn't exceed $500.00 thinking there is a miracle in them there cables.

IMHO..
It really isn't the reviewers, its simply the financial structure and business model of the CE marketplace. There has been so much emphasis on cost that the component hardware prices are pushed down below normal financial margin returns.
For example, which of the following products have the highest profit margin both for the audio dealer and manufacturer:
1. An AVR selling for $599
2. A step-up Blu-ray player selling for $399
3. A high-end performance HDMI cable selling for $299

Just my $0.02...

 

[RichB]

IMHO..
It really isn't the reviewers, its simply the financial structure and business model of the CE marketplace. There has been so much emphasis on cost that the component hardware prices are pushed down below normal financial margin returns.
For example, which of the following products have the highest profit margin both for the audio dealer and manufacturer:
1. An AVR selling for $599
2. A step-up Blu-ray player selling for $399
3. A high-end performance HDMI cable selling for $299

Just my $0.02...

I am not surprised that folks want to make a profit.
There are less and B&M dealers every day.
There are more virtual dealers that offer pretty good deals on premium brands.

There are options to buy ATI B-Stock at better prices. I did that today

There is much more information available online and there are thousands of .02 cent opinions.

IMO, there is nothing wrong with any of that.

- Rich

 

[Irvrobinson]

I am new here but I am having are hard time understanding the culture.
This is a thread begins with a poll.

You spend some effort explaining your experiences and folks want to know if you can prove that you are blind but not deaf.

Interesting

- Rich

The answer is that there is no one culture, there are many sub-cultures. After you've been here a while you'll begin to understand where certain people are coming from. One strong undercurrent of thought some people advocate is that you can't objectively compare how different products sound without blinded tests, and some people insist that double-blinded tests are required for ensuring the integrity of the testing process. Others believe single-blind tests are sufficient for some tests, while others question the efficacy of comparison testing of audio equipment altogether. For example, the person who started the poll, Gene, is not one of the people making all of these double-blind arguments, as you can see if you read the thread carefully.

It can take a thick skin to post on this site, depending on your personality. A lot of people may disagree with you regardless of what position you take, and often when they don't agree it gets into a right-or-wrong discussion. We often joke about some topics that bring out this behavior, like cables sounding different, the usefulness of passive bi-amping, or the ever popular DACs can sound different or amplifiers can sound different topics. If you want to have one of these discussions, just be prepared for a colorful thread, or at least get ready to have your judgment impugned.

If I may offer one caution and associated piece of advice, there are some very technically capable people who post on this site. There are electrical engineers, speaker designers, people trained in hard sciences, speaker and component manufacturers... it's a very interesting crowd. You should feel free to speak your mind, but when you want talk about how something works, or make assumptions about how something should be designed, or you just want to assert that A is better or worse than B, it is good to have some technical depth of knowledge behind you, or you can find yourself tripping over your own posts.

 

[M Code]

I am not surprised that folks want to make a profit.
There are less and B&M dealers every day.
There are more virtual dealers that offer pretty good deals on premium brands.

There are options to buy ATI B-Stock at better prices. I did that today

There is much more information available online and there are thousands of .02 cent opinions.

IMO, there is nothing wrong with any of that.

- Rich

As you can imagine, the overhead/expenses for a B&M dealer are much higher than a virtual internet seller...
Yes, the virtual seller has significantly lower pricing but what if something goes wrong with the product? Also How does one differentiate between brands and products..
Can you imagine buying a new car without test driving it..

Regarding the B stock, yes there are good buys out there but just think "Where do the units come from?.. Why are they B stock?..

Regarding your ATI amplifier, excellent choice!! Well-made product in their California factory.. We happen to know their execs there very well..

Just my $0.02...

 

[RichB]

As you can imagine, the overhead/expenses for a B&M dealer are much higher than a virtual internet seller...
Yes, the virtual seller has significantly lower pricing but what if something goes wrong with the product? Also How does one differentiate between brands and products..
Can you imagine buying a new car without test driving it..

Regarding the B stock, yes there are good buys out there but just think "Where do the units come from?.. Why are they B stock?..

Regarding your ATI amplifier, excellent choice!! Well-made product in their California factory.. We happen to know their execs there very well..

Just my $0.02...

This is a thread where many feel passionately that well designed amps do not sound different. Bad news for B&M's.

I know how I deal with products that can go wrong.

1) I buy from reputable companies like Outlaw, ATI, Oppo
2) I read reviews and posts and determine who makes sense and who does not.

Judgment.

I am counting the days for the ATI 3005 arrives.
Thanks to the many folks who posted on the ATI thread.

I chose the ATI 3005 because

- Power and over design - It understates its performance
- Separate amp modules
- Fuseless protection
- My Outlaw 7500 (an ATI clone) is fantastic
- Single 20 amp cord (I liked that better than the Outlaw)
- Directly support by ATI
- Damn near un-clippable
- Peak indicator - so I can know

Because I have recently finished watching Game of Thrones,
I name this amp The Iron Warrior

Edit: Umm, I bought an ATI B-Stock because some companies B-Stock is better than another's A

- Rich

 

[RichB]

Can you imagine buying a new car without test driving it..

No. I bought my Revels from a dealer.
If I wanted to upgrade to Ultima 2's, I might find a more affordable way.

Would I buy another Lexus without driving it if it saved me thousands of dollars?
You bet I would.

- Rich

 

[PENG]

No. I bought my Revels from a dealer.
If I wanted to upgrade to Ultima 2's, I might find a more affordable way.

Would I buy another Lexus without driving it if it saved me thousands of dollars?
You bet I would.

- Rich

Agree, in fact I would even buy a brand new Camry without test driving it if it would save me thousands.

 

[M Code]

Agree, in fact I would even buy a brand new Camry without test driving it if it would save me thousands.

And what would you do if you found the Camry front seats design aggravated a back problem...
Or your wife complained about not having adequate rear vision when backing up and driving it..
Once you sign the papers and drive the car out of the dealers lot...
Its yours..

Just my $0.02...

 

[RichB]

If I may offer one caution and associated piece of advice, there are some very technically capable people who post on this site. There are electrical engineers, speaker designers, people trained in hard sciences, speaker and component manufacturers... it's a very interesting crowd. You should feel free to speak your mind, but when you want talk about how something works, or make assumptions about how something should be designed, or you just want to assert that A is better or worse than B, it is good to have some technical depth of knowledge behind you, or you can find yourself tripping over your own posts.

Thanks.

In my anecdotal experience, I had no intension of performing a scientific experiment. I found a difference while auditioning. I looked for a cause. I found the power conditioner was causing problems. That caused me to upgrade my amps.
Along the way, I feel I bought a better one for my system.
There is no more to it than that.

I do not recall talking about how anything works.
My interest lies in purchasing the right product for my system.
Not in proving someone else wrong or that any product is superior to another.

If folks seemed to get upset that I developed an opinion from my experiences.
Oh well.

I read the posts here carefully and here are some key points:

- You cannot trust your ears because you are to subjective
- You cannot trust high end dealers because they want to tell sell you overpriced gear.
- You should not trust the person who runs the tests
- You should not trust reviewers, they are too subjective
- You cannot trust the person running the tests

I am sure I must of missed some

I am very interested in an amp shootout.
I recommend using mix of different speakers as it may affect the outcome.

- Rich

 

[RichB]

And what would you do if you found the Camry front seats design aggravated a back problem...
Or your wife complained about not having adequate rear vision when backing up and driving it..
Once you sign the papers and drive the car out of the dealers lot...
Its yours..

Just my $0.02...

Well, you bring the check but don't hand it over until you sit in the seats and peer out the rear view mirror.

I open the Plasma TV that I bought from Panasonic over the internet.
Even if it costs me 20 bucks. Humans, we're do damn adaptable

- Rich

 

[mtrycrafts]

Well, the thread is "Can you hear a difference in Sound between Audio Amplifiers?".

Are experiences under certain conditions unsuitable for this thread?

- Rich

No, not at all but neither is asking how and what conditions it was audible in your case. And, pointing out how some conditions will introduce a false sense of reality is just as important. I am surprised some do not want to know when that may be the case. I thought knowledge is power but it seems only when that knowledge is supporting one's beliefs.

 

[Pyrrho]

I am new here but I am having are hard time understanding the culture.
This is a thread begins with a poll.

You spend some effort explaining your experiences and folks want to know if you can prove that you are blind but not deaf.

Interesting

- Rich

If you want to understand where some people are coming from, you can get an idea from reading the articles at these links that are not about audio:

Price Can Make Wine Taste Better: Scientific American Podcast

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/15/world/americas/15iht-wine.1.9221093.html?_r=0

The simple fact is, people's perceptions are not an accurate guide to reality. Not in audio, nor in other aspects of life. This is why proper testing procedures are essential to find out if there really is a difference, or the person just believes that there is a difference when there isn't one.

If you want to have fun with your audiophile friends, you can do a listening session with them such that you pretend to change something in a manner that they believe will matter, but don't actually change anything. If you are a good actor and play your part well, there is a good chance they will tell you how much better it sounds with the "change" you made. And if you want to lose your friends, you then tell them what you did. Basically, people are not measuring devices, and are unreliable for telling you if there really is a difference or not. This is why proper testing procedures are essential for learning if the person really is hearing something different or just imagining it.

To more directly address your concerns, some people want to know if the person really experienced something different in what they heard, or just thought they did, like the people in the wine study involving giving people the same wine and being told that it is different and costs different amounts of money.

 

[RichB]

If you want to understand where some people are coming from, you can get an idea from reading the articles at these links that are not about audio:

Price Can Make Wine Taste Better: Scientific American Podcast

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/15/world/americas/15iht-wine.1.9221093.html?_r=0

Funny that you mention wine. I make wine.
We are always working on the processes, within our means.
Sometimes, I make good wine.

My friend has thousands of dollars of wine in his cellars.
My sister in law own a share in a winery in Napa.

Neither of them think I make good wine.
I don't that that personally either.

- Rich

 

[RichB]

To more directly address your concerns, some people want to know if the person really experienced something different in what they heard, or just thought they did, like the people in the wine study involving giving people the same wine and being told that it is different and costs different amounts of money.

I beta test for Oppo.
In this role, I do a lot of comparing as quickly as possible.
The HDMI, COAX, XLR, and 7.1 Analog all sound different.
I prefer the analog connections.
I never tell anyone what they prefer

There are no measurements. Does that make it invalid?
There are many here who think that this is senseless because digital is digital.
I was one of those people but experience has changed my mind.

Trust me, I am the last guy in the world that you want to try to sell and $100 HDMI cable or after market power cords. I know what's in the wall

There is a possibility that some may get upset by a test like this because it may not validate their deeply held beliefs. I am not one of them.

I am getting a lot of good advice on this thread.
Allow me to reciprocate: If this thread upsets you, ask yourself why.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

This is a thread where many feel passionately that well designed amps do not sound different. Bad news for B&M's.

I think some of us just end up buying what is in our budget regardless of what we believe.

I believe amps sound similar, but I still own 4 ATI amps, not Emotiva or less expensive amps. I did have 2 Crown amps, which I think also sound great, but I sold them.

If I were a billionaire, I would own $100,000 monoblocks.

So I think some of us just end up buying what is in our budget regardless of what we believe.

 

[Irvrobinson]

If folks seemed to get upset that I developed an opinion from my experiences.
Oh well.

Good attitude. You'll do fine. As you've pointed out, the OP asked for experiences.

 

[PENG]

There are no measurements. Does that make it invalid?

If they sound different to you, no one will say anything other than may bring up Placebo, but I won't, though the 95,105 and my Denon all sound same enough to me. I think if you were to say one sounds better than the other still no one would, or should protest because we all have, and do express our opinions. I trust measurements much more than my hearing/brains but that's just me; and I am referring to SQ in terms of accuracy only, not whether it sounds good or bad to one's ears. I am sure there are people who prefer a live concert BR/SACD etc., played through their high end system that colors the sound, such as some Sunfire/Carver or some tube gear plus certain speakers, than the sound they would hear in that live unamplified concerts. I am just taking this to the extreme to make a point though.

There are many here who think that this is senseless because digital is digital.
I was one of those people but experience has changed my mind.

See we are all so different. Many people went the opposite way, from extreme die hard analog to digital, I am almost one of those, except I am more or less neutral on this but used to be analog only.

I am getting a lot of good advice on this thread.
Allow me to reciprocate: If this thread upsets you, ask yourself why.

I doubt anyone would be upset by this thread. I did make one point in the beginning, that the poll would have been more telling if the question is more specific than just asking if amps sound different. If a person answer the question without making assumptions such as operating well within their designed limits, etc., then the answer should invariably be yes they can sound different. As it is now the numbers are meaningless to me because I am not a mind reader.

 

[Steve81]

If a person answer the question without making assumptions such as operating well within their designed limits, etc., then the answer should invariably be yes they can sound different.

And yet so many people picked the wrong answer