Sound 'FEEL' and Acoustics

[isinyc]

Hi all,

I've been on a long and painfully unsuccessful path to create some harmony in my room/home and swore that before I buy the next piece of highly rated equipment, I will do some searching and seek out expert advice.

I am a music listener. I don't care for surround sound for movies or tv watching because I do little of that but I ALWAYS listen to music and this is the goal of any setup I buy. Searching for equipment on the internet makes you a bit of a gearhead and this is specifically what I am looking to avoid after having spend money on cheap items that haven't done what I wanted. I was looking at 2 Cerwin Vega speakers ($199 ea) and then an amp, but figured I'd ask before i threw away more money.

I want to be able to have the music in the house be omnipresent without being harsh or too loud. I have been in places where the music was clear and present without disrupting conversation. If I am having friends over for dinner, I want the music to envelope the room so to speak instead of it being just in the background or have to put it up to be heard to the point where everyone is quiet because they cannot speak.

I know this is possible because I can recall being in places where the music was heard like just another participant at the table without it disrupting anyone. I also realize that this has a lot to do with room acoustics but I was hoping that someone can suggest some sort of speaker/amp/position setup without breaking the bank. I have a small living room so the speakers don't have to go very loud to fill the room with music, but the standard fare ends up being slightly harsh compared to the warmness that I am seeking and they do mute out any conversation when you put them loud enough to where the music isn't just on the background.

Can anyone help?

 

[j_garcia]

To be honest, CV isn't terrible, but I wouldn't say clarity is their forte. It is just that you can get a LOT better for your money for music.

Run, don't walk, to Best Buy and pick up the Andrew Jones Pioneer speakers. You should be able to get a pair of towers for just over what you are considering for one CV. Here's the review Gene did of them, the whole package, but you can obviously just get what you need for music: Pioneer SP-PK52FS 5.1 Andrew Jones Loudspeaker System Review

I own a pair of the bookshelf speakers and I just don't understand really how they can give you such a solid speaker for that price. I realize I sound like a fanboy, but you can see by Gene's review, the speakers deliver.

 

[bikemig]

For a music only system, I'd pick up the NHT superzero and mini-monitors and the super 8 sub: Super Stereo System | High End Speakers | Powered Subwoofer. NHT is having a sale so you can pick this up for less than the $500 list for the speakers (and that's in range of the OP's original budget for the speakers). They're sealed speakers so they're pretty easy going when it comes to placement.

For an amp or a receiver, you have a ton of choices but I'd pick up the Onkyo TX 8050 stereo receiver because of its networking capabilities and digital connections: Amazon.com: Onkyo TX-8050 Network Stereo Receiver (Black): Electronics. This is an unusual stereo receiver that will allow you to play music from a number of different sources.

Edit: NHT is an internet direct company and you have a 30 day period in which to try out your new speakers.

 

[Pyrrho]

Your description of what you want makes me think of Magnepan MMG:

MMG - Magnepan, Inc.

They do cost $200 more than the pair of speakers you were looking at, and they also are 4 ohms, so you will want to take some care with what you select to drive them. If it were me buying a pair of speakers new at that price point, I would buy them. One of my brothers owns a pair of them, and I have heard them. He has lived with them for several years and he is very impressed. You can read quite a few online reviews of these speakers.

 

[isinyc]

Pyrrho, I am moving into a Manhattan apartment and the MMGs although beautiful would end up taking way more real estate then I can afford to provide for speakers. They look completely awesome though and I wish I can hear what they sound like!

j_garcia, have you ever heard the full Pioneer set. Way back in the day when I moonlit as a DJ I remember Pioneer making some top quality stuff but never knew them to be big on speakers and amps. The price point and the reviews are compelling however as is the NHT.

The question comes up though, does the Pioneer having a full surround setup have an upper hand in filling the room with a lush warm sound over the NHT or are surround sound systems setup for movies primarily where I won't be getting any real music value from much of it. (I recall that the back speakers usually played SFX sounds in most movies).

The onkyo amp looks great... would this be the best solution if I went with the Pioneer as well?

 

[theJman]

Without knowing what dimensions constitute a "small living room", or even a projected budget amount, it's not really possible for anyone to do much more than throw out random suggestions. Based upon what you were looking to spend on the CV's I'll assume an amount though, and toss out my suggestion of the Arx A1b's. For $300 it will be next to impossible to beat the clarity and precision they have, but like most of the other suggestions you'll need a subwoofer with those.

 

[isinyc]

Tough to answer Jim as I'm only moving in there next week. The living room seemed large for a NYC apartment but what that means in real world terms, I can't say - If i had to guess I would say probably no more than 300 sqr feet...possibly even less. As far as price, I would normally spend up to 1000 on speaker/sub/receiver...this apartment is expensive and I won't really be able to save up much so I have to be careful with my budget....it is for this reason that the pioneer seems attractive but it does seem more of a 'home theater' setup than what I've been reading in the reviews for the ARX and NHT. I would hope to pay no more than 4-500 for speakers and would make an exception to something that would be an investment and that I could potentially build upon in the future. Someone told me to give the self powered audio engine a5 a try considering the budget....not sure why though, but there something about the 'self powered' and the volume control being on the speaker that turns me off....

 

[bikemig]

The A-5s are very good; you should listen to them. You are lucky; you live in NYC and can listen to pretty much any speakers you like. Insofar as the Pioneers are concerned, the fact that they are part of a home theater set up and you only want a pair of towers is not a negative. Lots of really great speakers are part of a home theater family of speakers. The NHT super zeros and super 8 sub look really, really good and more importantly sound really good. You should go and listen to them as well. Add the Onk stereo receiver and you're well within your budget. That's what I'd get if I were working with your budget.

If you want (or need) to save some money, check out accessories4less. It sells good quality audio gear refurbished by the manufacturer with a warranty. You'll be able to save some money on that receiver; plus there are some good speaker choices on that website. The KEF Q300 would be a good choice as well: KEF Q300 Q Series 6-1/2 inch Black Bookshelf Speakers, pair | Accessories4less.

I'd put together some music I like for critical listening and hit the stores near you to listen to different speakers.

 

[STRONGBADF1]

Hi all,

I've been on a long and painfully unsuccessful path to create some harmony in my room/home and swore that before I buy the next piece of highly rated equipment, I will do some searching and seek out expert advice.

I am a music listener. I don't care for surround sound for movies or tv watching because I do little of that but I ALWAYS listen to music and this is the goal of any setup I buy. Searching for equipment on the internet makes you a bit of a gearhead and this is specifically what I am looking to avoid after having spend money on cheap items that haven't done what I wanted. I was looking at 2 Cerwin Vega speakers ($199 ea) and then an amp, but figured I'd ask before i threw away more money.

I want to be able to have the music in the house be omnipresent without being harsh or too loud. I have been in places where the music was clear and present without disrupting conversation. If I am having friends over for dinner, I want the music to envelope the room so to speak instead of it being just in the background or have to put it up to be heard to the point where everyone is quiet because they cannot speak.

I know this is possible because I can recall being in places where the music was heard like just another participant at the table without it disrupting anyone. I also realize that this has a lot to do with room acoustics but I was hoping that someone can suggest some sort of speaker/amp/position setup without breaking the bank. I have a small living room so the speakers don't have to go very loud to fill the room with music, but the standard fare ends up being slightly harsh compared to the warmness that I am seeking and they do mute out any conversation when you put them loud enough to where the music isn't just on the background.

Can anyone help?

The only way I know to get an enveloping but not over powering sound-field across an entire room is to have at least four speakers in a room. Four speakers, then set the AVR to the multichannel stereo setting. Then the volume can be set lower yet still be intelligible without being overpowering.

Picking speakers that measure well of axis will help also.

 

[j_garcia]

j_garcia, have you ever heard the full Pioneer set. Way back in the day when I moonlit as a DJ I remember Pioneer making some top quality stuff but never knew them to be big on speakers and amps. The price point and the reviews are compelling however as is the NHT.

The question comes up though, does the Pioneer having a full surround setup have an upper hand in filling the room with a lush warm sound over the NHT or are surround sound systems setup for movies primarily where I won't be getting any real music value from much of it. (I recall that the back speakers usually played SFX sounds in most movies).

Read the whole review. What I meant by pick and choose was, you can choose the 22LR bookshelf speakers and a sub or just the two 52FS towers and things will sound good either way. You don't need to buy the whole package. I've always like NHT, but comparatively even to the Pioneers, they are bright (do you know what your own preference in type of sound is?) The Pioneers are very neutral. They throw a big, wide stage that is very natural sounding for their price.

Another option would be the Ascend CBM-170 SE High Performance Bookshelf Loudspeaker Small, very neutral in sound and an excellent music speaker - not unlike the sealed NHTs, you'll want a sub with these.

"Sound coming from everywhere" can also be achieved with omni-polar speakers like the ones from Mirage: http://www.miragespeakers.com/products/omnisat-series/

 

[isinyc]

You guys are absolutely awesome and overwhelming in the sheer amount of knowledge you have on equipment - I must say that I am completely ignorant to a lot of the frequency specs on the speaker specifications though! The words you use in describing sound however, make absolute sense. I like 'bright' sounds for a very short amount of time, after a while the highs start to get somewhat offensive. So I can say that overtly 'bright' speakers are probably less desirebale for a system I intend on having on for hours at a time each day. The one caveat with brightness however, is that in my limited experience at least, goes hand in hand with a good soundstage - and I may be wrong but I have typically come to associate brightness and soundstage in headphones and speakers just because the lows on most speakers muddy the sound and blur the integrity of each instrument. I prefer a warmer sound that has crisp highs which will not have the knife or needle like effect on my ears and will not compromise the lower end mids and lows of the sound. I listen to a really wide variety of music (indie pop/new wave, electronic instrumental a la Air, rock N roll and every now and then get in the mood for rap that reminds me of being in high school in the 90's) in this case I think a neutral speaker may be best suited for my listening preference and habit.

I purchased the Ultrasone HFI-780 for my headphones and for a while had a difficult time with their brightness. Their highs were way too sharp for my taste and I would end up pretty exhausted after an hour or an hour and a half with them on me. They have mellowed out a lot after some burn time and they're very enjoyable right now - I would rate this as a middle of the road headphones with 'tight' instead of rolling base where the integrity of the other sounds isn't compromised and a pretty good soundstage for a closed can design. I would hope that my speakers provide a similar sound with more airinness and potentially some more 'warmth' instead of brightnness.

What I find particularly confusing is the suggestion of bookshelves vs. surround sound - wouldn't ne exect a completely different result just from the sheer amount of space that one covers vs the others or is the speaker build quality of sound so different that certain bookshelves just outperform 4 or 5 other speakers? The 'omnipolar' speakers are expensive....maybe around bonus time or if I get a raise!!

 

[j_garcia]

I also find brighter speakers fatiguing with longer listening and I gathered that from your other posts that you seem to know that you like a warmer sound and that's why I recommended the Pioneers and the Ascends. Leave the lows to a sub preferably and leave the crossover between the speakers and the sub to the receiver and that goes a long way to eliminate that "muddying" you are talking about; aka a proper calibration solves this. Most receivers today are capable of doing this automatically to some extent.

The bookshelf vs surround thing isn't meaning 2 speakers will be better than a complete setup. If surround is the goal, then you can get 2 pairs of bookshelf speakers (or one pair of towers as in the package), the matching center and a good sub to achieve a very nice system. On a budget, you can start with just one pair and a sub and then add the other speakers as budget allows. If you want the whole kit and caboodle up front, well there's no reason not to as long as the funds are available If your budget is higher, the people here can certainly help you find a smooth speaker within those limits too, I was just starting with something inexpensive and good and the Pioneers definitely fit that warm category to my ears.

The Mirages achieve that diffused sound, but they definitely aren't cheap. The nice thing about the Pioneers is that you can pick up a pair at Best Buy, listen to them and decide. If you don't like them, you have 30 days to return them.

 

[isinyc]

Has anyone heard the Polk Audio TSi 100?

They seem to have great reviews. Also, would 2 pairs of bookshelves provide that feel in the room that I am trying to reproduce? 4 stereo speakers from all 4 corners...instead of a standard surroud sound setup. Is there a specific amp to do this or the onkyo 8050 suggester ealier would be the best bet still?

 

[j_garcia]

You should be able to listen to those at Best Buy if you have one near, as well as the Pioneers. That's one you'll sort of have to decide yourself. Polk tends to be a bit on the brighter side, but the RTiA-3s I auditioned in my setup were relatively flat.

The 8050 is a stereo receiver and does not have a "all channel stereo" function, however it likely also has an A and B speaker output that would give you the ability to run two pairs of speakers as long as they don't exceed the amp's capability. My advice is to start with two speakers and see how you like it.

 

[isinyc]

Best Buy is offering me a deal for a Pioneer Elite vsx-60 - i can get it open box for about 300 dollars what do you guys think?


They also have a deal for the andrew jones system going for 440$ for the full set.

I told them Iwould take both for 700$ tax included? Is that a good deal?

 

[isinyc]

hi all - i apologize for the blabbering above - I was at Best Buy and the audio salesperson allowed me to use one of their computers to find out more info as my phone had no service in the basement!

I went to bestbuy to buy a router and an Apple TV and decided to check out the Pioneer system after the suggestions and the stellar reviews it received from audiophiles on the web! Coincidentally, the speakers were selling for about $430 instead of the suggested $549 price. These weren't even on display in their home theater room at first and I had to ask the the sales person on the floor about them. After some digging, he located the prices and said that there was a 30% sale on the items (they sold individually instead of as a package deal). Two front floor standing tower speakers, 2 bookshelves, 1 subwoofer and one center speaker all for $430! Best Buy has this deal until April 6th (in case anyone is interested).

I kept asking if they price matched and if there was a way for me to lower the price even further and the guy helping (who was extremely nice and very helpful) indicated that they had a Pioneer Elite VSX-60 receiver in an open box floor model which they used for demo purposes in their home theater room. He said this was mostly used for demos and wasn't on the shelves for people to touch and destroy. The receiver was missing the remote and normally sold for about $500 (Amazon currently lists it for $429) - they were offering it at $300. I have no knowledge of receivers so I immediately tried to go on the web to see reviews and as a result typed the previous unintelligble post! In the end I buckled, after about an hour of bargaining, I was able to get both the complete speaker set and the receiver for $800.33 including tax! I'm somewhat certan I may have been able to lower the price further had I not been so hungry and so tired from having moved all day but this was my breaking point. I was also comforted by the fact that I had 15 days to try this all out and if I wasn't happy, I would be fully refunded.

I spent a total of 800$ with the tax included. The speakers will be coming on Friday and I'll let everyone know how they system sounds once everything is setup!

Until then, (as I am kind of giddy waiting for the new toys) does anyone have any information about the Pioneer VSX-60 There are some amazon reviews out there however I don't see much else.