Anyone know how to calibrate a Transducer (Buttkicker, Clark Synthesis)

[majorloser]

Low bass frequencies do take a certain amount of volume and distance to properly develop. I'm not going bother getting into the plusses and minuses of multiple subwoofers and placement. In my house I place a sub close to the seating for near field rumble.

But transducers do work and add a certain amount of wow factor to a home theater. For best operation the transducers need the crossover setting different then the subs. You don't want to feel all bass shaking your butt,just the lower end. You may even need a different delay than the subs since you may experience the shake sooner than the audible sound arrives in a large room.

 

[Grador]

Grador - No, I don't trust myself at all. I have no idea what an explosion is supposed to feel like. I don't know what music is supposed to feel like. And even if I did, how could I calibrate it to be so? Who says that if I calibrate to let's say War of the Worlds, that that movie is the end all be all reference point. Who says I wouldn't have to re-adjust the intensity for the next movie. We can calibrate our speakers and our TV (or projector) to a standard. Tactile transducers are a 3rd part of (some people's) HT, and should have their own standard to calibrate too. ..I know, I'm going in circles. But that's what I feel like when I'm sitting there calibrating. Like everything I'm calibrating to is going to be wrong with the next movie I pop in.

An explosion is supposed to feel like you slowly (or quickly) dying of internal injuries due to shockwaves. My consistent point is that bass shakers are a completely artificial effect and there is nothing it should feel like.

You very well might have to re-adjust it for every movie, I often do. Sound engineers do bass very differently from each other. Given that bass shakers work on a fairly limited bandwidth the strength of the effect varies dramatically given how the explosion is presented.

 

[gmichael]

I don't know if there is, or will ever be, an official way to calibrate your buttkicker. This is what I would do if I had one though. I would first, calibrate my subwoofer. There are many sources already to help you with that. Then I would find a frequency where your sub and BK'er overlap. EI: maybe 25 Hz. (I could use 15 Hz but not everyone can) You could then run a test tone at that frequency, sit in your chair and adjust your BK to have it match your sub.

 

[Grador]

I don't know if there is, or will ever be, an official way to calibrate your buttkicker. This is what I would do if I had one though. I would first, calibrate my subwoofer. There are many sources already to help you with that. Then I would find a frequency where your sub and BK'er overlap. EI: maybe 25 Hz. (I could use 15 Hz but not everyone can) You could then run a test tone at that frequency, sit in your chair and adjust your BK to have it match your sub.

I would not actually recommend this. My shakers in my last couch had a very strong spike at 40 hz, if I had adjusted with a 25 hz tone it would have had way to strong of an effect. I could do that with my current couch though.

I'd recommend running a bandwidth limited pink noise, from say 25hz to 45hz if you felt like being clinical.

I honestly think the best way to do it is to set your system to your normal volume level and watch a single explosion over and over till you feel it's dialed in. Then sample other explosions and make minor adjustments.

 

[fuzz092888]

Fuzz - Again, I don't think there is anything wrong with this picture. I stick to my argument that tactile transducers and speakers are two different things and have different uses. I may not be knowledgeable enough in the world of HT to provide a valid argument to this, but I know the difference in my HT with the transducers and without them, even if I turn the subs up to the point where the entire room house shakes. It's still not the same. And I could never get that feeling from my other speakers without my ears bleeding.

Like I said before, with a proper setup and the Funk subs I don't see any reason why you would ever need the buttkickers. IMHO there is no substitute for authentically produced bass and the accompanying tactile feel. Obviously something is amiss in your setup if you feel like you need them. I know I don't need the volume turned up to ear bleeding levels to get a nice tactile feel from movies and I know TLS guy doesn't either. Perhaps you're opinion will change when you get the funk subs.

You may have said it elsewhere, but what are the dimensions of your room and what are the two subs you currently have and where are they placed? Is this room open to any other areas?

 

[gmichael]

I would not actually recommend this. My shakers in my last couch had a very strong spike at 40 hz, if I had adjusted with a 25 hz tone it would have had way to strong of an effect. I could do that with my current couch though.

I'd recommend running a bandwidth limited pink noise, from say 25hz to 45hz if you felt like being clinical.

I honestly think the best way to do it is to set your system to your normal volume level and watch a single explosion over and over till you feel it's dialed in. Then sample other explosions and make minor adjustments.

Did you end up adding an EQ to the BK line?

 

[Grador]

Did you end up adding an EQ to the BK line?

Though it does run through my miniDSP, I liked the effect given even with the spike so I did not EQ it. I am using the miniDSP to apply a very steep low-pass at 50 hz though.

 

[TLS Guy]

Ok, this is getting interesting because I feel like I'm learning something. But I'm not fully understanding yet. Your post brings this question to mind: If I need a transducer in my bottom to acurrately calibrate it, how come I don't need a speaker in my ear to accurately calibrate my speakers?

Here is my reasoning for asking that question:
I have the sub setup to 75Db loudness at reference, so shouldn't the buttkicker be able to be calibrated to xx pressure at reference level. Yes, my body will perceive that pressure differently than someone else, but my ears will also perceive 75db differently than anyone else's ears.

So shouldn't there be a standard to calibrate to? Let's say 75DB = 4lbs of pressure generated by the buttkicker.....etc...

Because you can use a microphone in place of your ears. Either way your ears and the mic are responding to moment to moment changes in air pressure. a sound wave is a pressure wave.

Now the butt kicker is an electric to fluid wave generator and no an electric to air pressure generator. So you would have to measure the pressure changes in the fluid of your body. Now sound waves and spl have a large body of science behind them so we know more or less how to interpret the data, and use it for calibration.

There is no similar body of data for a butt kicker, and I doubt there ever will be, since it would be so invasive to get it, so levels will remain subjective.

 

[gmichael]

Though it does run through my miniDSP, I liked the effect given even with the spike so I did not EQ it. I am using the miniDSP to apply a very steep low-pass at 50 hz though.

In that case, maybe match the BK to the sub at 40 Hz. Maybe turn it up a notch or two after that if you like how it feels.

 

[Grador]

In that case, maybe match the BK to the sub at 40 Hz. Maybe turn it up a notch or two after that if you like how it feels.

This could work, and for phase purposes I did do something similar to this. Overall though I just felt it easier to set them with explosions. The bass shakers really mess with your perception of bass making it really difficult to do a comparative setting.

 

[jay21112]

Lol at what an explosion is supposed to feel like.

Wait, I think I'm getting somewhere...

What do you have your Buttkicker's crossed over at. I leave mine on full, so the full LFE comes through them.
Is this bad?

What is this "calibrate to 40hz" thing. The buttkickers don't produce noise. How can I measure them?

 

[gmichael]

Lol at what an explosion is supposed to feel like.

Wait, I think I'm getting somewhere...

What do you have your Buttkicker's crossed over at. I leave mine on full, so the full LFE comes through them.
Is this bad?

What is this "calibrate to 40hz" thing. The buttkickers don't produce noise. How can I measure them?

If you ran test tones (like 20, 25, 30, 35 or 40 Hz) you could try to match the feel from your sub to that of your Buttkicker.
Sit in your chair. Play the test tones. Compare how your sub feels to how your BK feels. Change the amplitude of your BK so it feels the same as your sub. Then if you're like me, you'd turn it up a notch.

 

[Grador]

I get the feeling you have comprehended nothing anyone has posted

 

[jay21112]

You may have said it elsewhere, but what are the dimensions of your room and what are the two subs you currently have and where are they placed? Is this room open to any other areas?

Hmm, the room. It's been a while since I measured but it's a rectangle in my basement (maybe 50Lx20W or 50x30).
-Concrete floor with thin carpet over it.
-Spackle celing with steps down in the middle
-It has a shelf around the room (concrete foundation) with acoustic absorbers lining the sides, diffusors in the back, and bass traps in the 2 back corners.
-2 Polk Audio MicroPro 4000's (now in the rear to make room for 2 Funk Audio 18.3's in the front)
-Polk Audio LSI 7 speaker surround setup.
-2 Windows covered with board / insulation / curtains
-One folding door covered with curtains and sealed
-Palisner Chair decoupled from floor with rubber feet with 2 buttkickers and 2 clark synthesis transducers placed in them, and fully reinforced
-I have a Behringer splittler taking the LFE out to the 4 subs and 2 Buttkickers
-I have a Numark mixer taking the 7 speaker signals to the 2 CS transducers
-Onkyo receiver, Mits 72" tv, PS3
-Cables, isolation stands, voltage regulator / power cleaners / snake oil / yada yada yada..

Good / bad?

 

[jay21112]

Grador - No, it's just that I tried to use an spl meter to calibrate the buttkicker once, and it was way too much vibration.
I MUST have done it wrong.

I read something from Clark Synthesis once saying to calibrate their transducers to like 50 db from the normal test tones (with speakers calibrated to 75db) that the receiver plays. So I did that, and they were buzzing and were just way too high. So, I did it wrong.

So how did you do it?

 

[fuzz092888]

Hmm, the room. It's been a while since I measured but it's a rectangle in my basement (maybe 50Lx20W or 50x30).
-Concrete floor with thin carpet over it.
-Spackle celing with steps down in the middle
-It has a shelf around the room (concrete foundation) with acoustic absorbers lining the sides, diffusors in the back, and bass traps in the 2 back corners.
-2 Polk Audio MicroPro 4000's (now in the rear to make room for 2 Funk Audio 18.3's in the front)
-Polk Audio LSI 7 speaker surround setup.
-2 Windows covered with board / insulation / curtains
-One folding door covered with curtains and sealed
-Palisner Chair decoupled from floor with rubber feet with 2 buttkickers and 2 clark synthesis transducers placed in them, and fully reinforced
-I have a Behringer splittler taking the LFE out to the 4 subs and 2 Buttkickers
-I have a Numark mixer taking the 7 speaker signals to the 2 CS transducers
-Onkyo receiver, Mits 72" tv, PS3
-Cables, isolation stands, voltage regulator / power cleaners / snake oil / yada yada yada..

Good / bad?

So you have two tiny subwoofers not capable of holding to candle to most ID subs (no offense to you, lots of offense to the polk subwoofers) and you wonder why you don't get a tactile feel in a (using the smaller measurements) 4000+ cubic foot room. Now it all makes perfect sense.

 

[Grador]

Well whenever you have any new questions that haven't been answered, feel free to ask.

 

[Steve81]

-2 Polk Audio MicroPro 4000's (now in the rear to make room for 2 Funk Audio 18.3's in the front)

Good / bad?

Let's put it this way: when you get the 18.3's in house, you'll probably better understand why buttkickers may be superfluous/not needed.

 

[jay21112]

Fuzz - Well, now you know why I bought the Funk Subs.
I bought the Polk when that was all I could afford.

But it's not like the Polk Subs don't produce sound. How loud do you put your subs? I have my subs calibrated at 75 Db.
Do bigger subs give more vibration at 75 db than smaller subs?
I thought 75 db is 75 db is 75 db. Am i wrong in this?

 

[jay21112]

Well whenever you have any new questions that haven't been answered, feel free to ask.

I thought that was a new question. Ok, how about this - yes or no.
To calibrate the buttkicker, I put turn the buttkicker off and put a 40hz wave through the subs and look at what the reading says on a SPL meter at the sitting position.
Then I turn the sub off and put a 40hz wave through my buttkicker and adjust the buttkicker so the SPL meter matches what the subs read on it.

Yes, or no?