12" driver options?

S

Shrader

Audioholic
I built a css trio 12apr15 sealed sub box with a 500w bash amp for my HT, I am having some bottoming problems on real low lfe movie scenes (loud clap clap sound) the box is 3/4mdf with bracing 20" cube, wondering what you driver guru's think would work better in my sub box? I sent an email to bob at css and they seem willing to replace the trio 12, but they are out of stock, they also have the new sdx 12, but have no idea what will work in the box I have. Hate to scrap it since I had a buddy of mine do an awesome piano black finish on it.
 
Steve81

Steve81

A character with character
Do they have an estimate of when a replacement will come in?

From what I gather, you're not actually working with a true sealed sub, as it is utilizing a passive radiator. That complicates the matter of just dropping another driver in a bit.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Are you running any sort of subsonic filter on it? I'd take them up on the direct replacement first, because as Steve mentioned, a different drive will alter how that sub behaves. Are the PRs that are used adjustable? Meaning, I had a PR from GR Research that you could "tune" by adding washers to it to alter the behavior offering a level of cabinet "tuning". I don't think I have pics of it, but it had a threaded post on the back that you could drop the washers onto and retain with a nut.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Your sub is in a box too large for it.
It's engineered for a 56.56 liter box and it's in a 103.76 liter box. It's not a robust enough driver to be in that size of a box.

I also think 500 watts i probably too much for the driver.
The SDX-12 is not compatible as it wants a 27 liter box which is even smaller.

This driver is the closest I've found to matching your box size.
Dayton Audio RSS315HF-4 12" Reference HF Subwoofer 4 Ohm High Fidelity Reference Series 295-464
I can't verify it would be an improvement though. 12" drivers rarely like that large of a box. It does have slightly better SPL.

The newer HO is not compatible with the box size it will have to be this older model.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Your sub is in a box too large for it.
It's engineered for a 56.56 liter box and it's in a 103.76 liter box. It's not a robust enough driver to be in that size of a box.

I also think 500 watts i probably too much for the driver.
The SDX-12 is not compatible as it wants a 27 liter box which is even smaller.

This driver is the closest I've found to matching your box size.
Dayton Audio RSS315HF-4 12" Reference HF Subwoofer 4 Ohm High Fidelity Reference Series 295-464
I can't verify it would be an improvement though. 12" drivers rarely like that large of a box. It does have slightly better SPL.

The newer HO is not compatible with the box size it will have to be this older model.
Thanks for looking into this. I was feeling lazy this morning, but I had a feeling his box is headed to the junk pile. You really can not reverse engineer speakers. How many times have we been down that road?

I suspect his driver has been damaged by being in the wrong enclosure.

In all tuned enclosures, you must match driver box size, port or ABR critically
 
S

Shrader

Audioholic
FWIW, I'm assuming this is the OP's sub, which does call for basically a 20" cube:
http://www.creativesound.ca/pdf/TRIO12_APR15_Subwoofer_Kit.pdf
That is the kit. Why would they sell it that way if the box was the wrong size? Maybe the apr makes the difference? It is tunable, and if i add a ton of washers to it, it makes it better, but i loose the output, unless i turn the gain way up, then it will still bottom. I could also go to a 15" driver if one out there would work in this box, there is a TON of hours in the box, and cant bring myselfe to junk it. I plan on getting the replacement first, just trying to figure my options.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Do you have any poly fill in the cabinet or lined the walls with some damping material to help control internal waves? Here's the inside of the cabinet my buddy built that I turned into a Franken-SVS (NSD Plus driver with the GR PR, Rythmik amp).


Won't solve the issue with bottoming most likely, but might help get the desired sound out of it without having to fully damp the PRs. Still, I think it sounds like this design isn't going to give you the kind of SPL you are looking for.
 
S

Shrader

Audioholic
no, there is no poly fill or any other dampening inside the box. It sounds great....until it bottoms. The thing is, is that when I got it all together it was awesome at first, very loud, and lots of output, then it seemed as it got broke in, it started bottoming in low lfe scenes in movies, don't have an issue with music even pushing it with bass heavy stuff. The gain is at 1/2 and if I have the receiver turned up past -15db it will do it, sucks because I like it around 0db for movies. you would think if they sell this as a kit with a 500w amp, the driver should not have a problem even at max gain?
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Depends on your room too - if you have a huge room to fill, then you will be pushing that thing too far for the SPL you are looking for. If you had a tiny room, it would probably handle things without stress.

*Edit, I just looked and it says there is a subsonic filter at 18.7hz.
 
Last edited:
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
That is the kit. Why would they sell it that way if the box was the wrong size? Maybe the apr makes the difference? It is tunable, and if i add a ton of washers to it, it makes it better, but i loose the output, unless i turn the gain way up, then it will still bottom. I could also go to a 15" driver if one out there would work in this box, there is a TON of hours in the box, and cant bring myselfe to junk it. I plan on getting the replacement first, just trying to figure my options.
I apologize I didn't notice there was a PR in it. PRed subs aren't considered sealed subs for future reference. ;)
I don't have P-R modeling built into my software yet. In this case you'd need a high pass filter set to a higher point.

In all honesty you don't have enough sub for your taste and room. I thought the SDX was the driver for the original design of the PRed subs.
 
S

Shrader

Audioholic
Wonder if the driver just can't handle less than 20hz? maybe a higher low pass filter? and yes it is a big room 25'x28'x7.5'
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Based on their chart, it is around -8dB at 20hz (but still around 106dB), which would be a pretty significant drop off, but still seems like decent output. Their chart doesn't say how that was measured though.
 
S

Shrader

Audioholic
He is sending me a new driver,i will install it, and see if it cures the issue. I plan on doing another one in the near future, hopefully that will satisfy my needs. If you guys know of a sub i can build in a 20" cube that is around the $400 dollar mark, and would perform better let me know, i would like it to match the box i have for the other side of the room.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
no, there is no poly fill or any other dampening inside the box. It sounds great....until it bottoms. The thing is, is that when I got it all together it was awesome at first, very loud, and lots of output, then it seemed as it got broke in, it started bottoming in low lfe scenes in movies, don't have an issue with music even pushing it with bass heavy stuff. The gain is at 1/2 and if I have the receiver turned up past -15db it will do it, sucks because I like it around 0db for movies. you would think if they sell this as a kit with a 500w amp, the driver should not have a problem even at max gain?
I'm not so lazy this morning and I have looked at the design.

First of all I was struck by their published simulation. I have never seen a passive radiator sub have a response like that. That simulation is out of the back of the neck. Passive radiator subs ALWAYS have a rapid fall of response below the F3 point.

The next issue is the driver, which has the correct parameters for a sealed sub, except it does not have enough xmax for the required Eq.

Your driver is a high Qts high compliance driver. These types of drivers bottom easily in ported and ABR alignments and are easily damaged, because as you have found they bottom at the drop of a hat.

I have simulated your driver and played with it. I have modeled your box and others. Your box size is suboptimal and so is the ABR. The impedance curve shows significant misalignment. However this alignment was done with intent to help mitigate the bottoming of the driver and running out of xmax.

I modeled your 20" cube with that driver and ABR with a total mass of 135 GM.

There is a 6db peak at 40 Hz to give a false bass impression, then the response drops off like a stone and is 3 db down at 33 Hz and is 33db down at 20 Hz.

However the driver only reaches xmax, the bottoming point, at 20 Hz with a drive of 350 watts. How CSS claim this driver can handle 500 watts is boyond me. It is rated as a 350 watt driver/700 watts peak. Forget the peak, it is a 350 watt driver, period.

So the Bash amp has the power to destroy those drivers and because of the T/S parameters it will, if pushed.

CSS have added a boost below F3, a small one but it compounds the felony and will run the driver out of xmax sooner.

The cabinet should be loosely filled with Polyfill by my model.

I think you have damaged that driver. So the question is how to stop it happening again.

I think the subsonic filter at 18.7 Hz is far too low to prevent damage to that driver. Since the response falls off like a brick wall below 33 Hz, raising the subsonic filter to 30 Hz will protect your driver and not alter the performance.

This is not a sub with a deep reach, it does however reach half way into the last octave.

I note on their site that they say they are developing a horn design for that sub driver. I wish them luck, as the T/S parameters of that driver are totally inappropriate for a horn design. In my view that outfit are far from the brightest bulbs on the block, as you have already found out.
 
S

Shrader

Audioholic
Thanks for the info! and time! bad news on my end though, as it looks like i spent $400 on a boat anchor. So is there an option for a bigger driver in that box? with the PR? exact outside dimensions are 20" all sides, 3/4 mdf, and doubled up on the side of the PR to allow flush mounting, and internal bracing as per kit instructions. it is also down firing, if that makes a difference.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
I'm not so lazy this morning and I have looked at the design.

First of all I was struck by their published simulation. I have never seen a passive radiator sub have a response like that. That simulation is out of the back of the neck. Passive radiator subs ALWAYS have a rapid fall of response below the F3 point.

The next issue is the driver, which has the correct parameters for a sealed sub, except it does not have enough xmax for the required Eq.

Your driver is a high Qts high compliance driver. These types of drivers bottom easily in ported and ABR alignments and are easily damaged, because as you have found they bottom at the drop of a hat.

I have simulated your driver and played with it. I have modeled your box and others. Your box size is suboptimal and so is the ABR. The impedance curve shows significant misalignment. However this alignment was done with intent to help mitigate the bottoming of the driver and running out of xmax.

I modeled your 20" cube with that driver and ABR with a total mass of 135 GM.

There is a 6db peak at 40 Hz to give a false bass impression, then the response drops off like a stone and is 3 db down at 33 Hz and is 33db down at 20 Hz.

However the driver only reaches xmax, the bottoming point, at 20 Hz with a drive of 350 watts. How CSS claim this driver can handle 500 watts is boyond me. It is rated as a 350 watt driver/700 watts peak. Forget the peak, it is a 350 watt driver, period.

So the Bash amp has the power to destroy those drivers and because of the T/S parameters it will, if pushed.

CSS have added a boost below F3, a small one but it compounds the felony and will run the driver out of xmax sooner.

The cabinet should be loosely filled with Polyfill by my model.

I think you have damaged that driver. So the question is how to stop it happening again.

I think the subsonic filter at 18.7 Hz is far too low to prevent damage to that driver. Since the response falls off like a brick wall below 33 Hz, raising the subsonic filter to 30 Hz will protect your driver and not alter the performance.

This is not a sub with a deep reach, it does however reach half way into the last octave.

I note on their site that they say they are developing a horn design for that sub driver. I wish them luck, as the T/S parameters of that driver are totally inappropriate for a horn design. In my view that outfit are far from the brightest bulbs on the block, as you have already found out.
37591d1344836359-css-trio-12-loaded-horn-trio-47.jpg

This is a Trio Horn. I mean seriously the thing is as tall as the room. I love subs, but that's just ridiculous. Tapped Horns based on the Danley design are a fad right now. It seems no driver is safe from this craze.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Thanks for the info! and time! bad news on my end though, as it looks like i spent $400 on a boat anchor. So is there an option for a bigger driver in that box? with the PR? exact outside dimensions are 20" all sides, 3/4 mdf, and doubled up on the side of the PR to allow flush mounting, and internal bracing as per kit instructions. it is also down firing, if that makes a difference.
Unfortunately reverse engineering a box is a terrible and usually a fruitless task. You really need to select your driver and then design the box. The other way around does not work well and I certainly don't have time to model tons of drivers with that box and likely come up empty.

For now I would use a high pass filter at 30 Hz at least second order and fit the replacement driver and see how you like it. If not you need to chalk this one up to experience.

The take home message is this. A lot of work and expense goes into finishing a speaker. In DIY build the box use it and test it. If it passes muster finish it. If not chuck it out.

My best advice is to do what I recommended and if results are not satisfactory, then start from scratch. We have all chucked out a few boxes!
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Unfortunately reverse engineering a box is a terrible and usually a fruitless task. You really need to select your driver and then design the box. The other way around does not work well and I certainly don't have time to model tons of drivers with that box and likely come up empty.
I agree, I've found Ported and P-Red subs are pretty much impossible to reverse engineer.

I've found Sealed boxes are much easier to reverse engineer as long as you don't mind a lower Qtc.

I know what it's like to throw out boxes with a lot of effort and love in them OP, but sometimes a project doesn't work out. That said the sub should be just fine down to the 30s.
 
S

Shrader

Audioholic
lol i see your point. Just a little pissed that I had a "kit" sold to me that does not work is all, had I been experimenting, I would of course never spent the hours on finishing the cabinet! Thank you very much for your time and effort, I appreciate it!
 

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