Weighing my options

[Steve81]

Well, again, I bet you are heading the 7025's way for the look. The XPA-2 offers much more power for less money, and 4 ohm capable, but then double the power gets you only 3dB more SPL right?

Bingo.

I'm more curious as to how the Marantz maintains composure into difficult loads. The Emos are pretty well vetted, so I don't have much concern jumping into the new model XPA-200.

 

[mtrycrafts]

[ ... but I think it would be within say 5 degrees C.

What, no scrambled eggs anymore?

 

[jostenmeat]

So its time to start counting some chickens. You know how it is: gotta find a way to blow a Christmas bonus that I haven't gotten yet

This time around, I'm focusing in on my front end electronics, namely my Onkyo TX-SR707 receiver. It's done a good job for me, but being the consummate conservative type that I am, I'd like a bit more meat to my amplification to help me sleep better at night. If I can get cooler running equipment and improved functionality (ie reduced incidence of audio dropout for example) so much the better.

As it is, I've got a 5.1 system consisting of Klipsch RF-5s mains, RC-35 center, and RF-15 surrounds. Given the rated sensitivities, sheer wattage isn't so much a concern as stability into low impedance, reactive loads on all channels.

I've tossed around the possibility of getting an outboard amplifier to supplement the Onk, but that only solves one part of my annoyance with it, and brings up a few more (ie no 12V trigger).

Anyway, one possibility I'm tossing around getting an Emo separates setup, ie a UMC-200 and one of their amps. I'm hoping they release an XPA-500 in the near future in that regard.

The other possibility that's crossed my mind is a newer, hopefully better midrange receiver coupled with a stereo amplifier. A Marantz 6006 has strong amplification in its own right, Audyssey MultEQ XT, Airplay, and can be had for $700 on A4L. Add in an XPA-200 for $420, and I think I'll have a useful upgrade over what I've got now.

Thoughts, comments, and concerns are welcome. Budget for this as you may have guessed is in the $1,000 ballpark with a little wiggle room. Gotta save something for the kid's college education.

My first instinct is that this is a bad allocation of funds. Do you know which receivers have 12v triggers that actually work in zone 1, without any additional add-ons, purchases? I'm pretty sure Denon didn't when I last looked, but maybe things have changed.

Also how do you know it is the Onkyo that is dropping your audio? I am very curious about this. My 5yo Onkyo, well if there is ever any (extremely rare) momentary audio dropout, it is the very last thing that I suspect. I always suspect source material first (HDTV signal; bluray/hdcp/FW), then the component providing the source (BDP, tuner, etc). Anyway, I've changed out center speaker, subwoofer, side surround speakers, rear surrounds, subwoofer, even the theater screen, and likely the projector as well in the future, before I change out my Onkyo receiver/processor. I only bought it for its MultEQ XT, refurbed, $600ish. My money goes a lot further in other areas.

BTW, I only vaguely remember our discussion about room treatments, but did you know that GIK does sell those thinner membrane traps? You would just have to be lucky that they have your target freq made; dunno if they do custom for that.

The one thing I do like about the amp purchase is that it's a future proof type of purchase, it can be used for many years, etc. That doesn't mean I agree that this is where your bang for buck lies.

If going Emotiva, and I haven't seen selection or prices in forever, I'd want the 3 ch amp. If given only 2 ch of amp, at this moment, I'd start seriously wondering to myself if I rather just power the center channel rather than the 2 speakers. Well, I guess for you it's the music rig too, ok nevermind. For me, it depends on the movie, but during the most recent spirited run, the center was getting taxed BIG time. (Admittedly the center speaker was going to go before my amp was, but not sure how your Onk would fare.)

 

[PENG]

Do you know which receivers have 12v triggers that actually work in zone 1, without any additional add-ons, purchases?

Why wouldn't it work in zone 1? I didn't add anything to my AV7005 prepro, and would think the corresponding AVR would work the same.

Also how do you know it is the Onkyo that is dropping your audio?

I have similar questions but I thought in his preamble he said he wanted to sleep better.

 

[jostenmeat]

Why wouldn't it work in zone 1? I didn't add anything to my AV7005 prepro, and would think the corresponding AVR would work the same.

I don't know, I don't design the receivers! BTW, pre/pros always have triggers that work in all the zones. Receivers, not so much.

I have similar questions but I thought in his preamble he said he wanted to sleep better.

So how well do you think he will sleep after he spends $1000, and still has audio dropouts?

 

[Steve81]

My first instinct is that this is a bad allocation of funds.

It's probably not ideal, but it'll make me feel better and it won't draw the kind of attention that room treatments will

Do you know which receivers have 12v triggers that actually work in zone 1, without any additional add-ons, purchases? I'm pretty sure Denon didn't when I last looked, but maybe things have changed.

I have perused the manual of the SR6006, and the triggers are configurable. That's one of the issues with my Onk now.

Also how do you know it is the Onkyo that is dropping your audio?

Generally only a receiver reset (ie turn it off and on) fixes it, so that's my suspicion. Not my biggest concern in any case. I'm more concerned about the heat the unit produces which Onkyos tend to be notorious for.

BTW, I only vaguely remember our discussion about room treatments, but did you know that GIK does sell those thinner membrane traps? You would just have to be lucky that they have your target freq made; dunno if they do custom for that.

I recall some mention of that, but room treatments are for another day. Not much to really do there until I measure what's really happening at my listening position.

The one thing I do like about the amp purchase is that it's a future proof type of purchase, it can be used for many years, etc.

That is the appeal, along with the peace of mind aspect. I'm admittedly weird in how much time I devote to overthinking how much power I might need

For me, it depends on the movie, but during the most recent spirited run, the center was getting taxed BIG time.

This thought has weighed on me a bit. It's further complicated by the fact that my mains are the most sensitive of the bunch; after running auto-cal, my receiver cuts them by 10dB, the center about 6dB, and the surrounds 3.5dB. If Emo released an XPA-300, I'd strongly consider it, but size/weight matters too. I can't fit a full sized receiver AND amp. OTOH, running only three channels of reasonably sensitive speakers, I'd expect the SR6006 to do just fine as well.

Decisions decisions... Appreciate the input guys.

 

[jostenmeat]

It's very easy to blow money on this hobby. This said, the greatest compromises by far, the greatest flaws of most any system, happen where the electrical energy is *finally* converted to mechanical/physical/light energy that our human senses can finally appreciate: the speakers and the display. That's why I'm usually thinking about those devices before the processor (which is "superceded so quickly"; but no matter to me). JMO, I'm just one "check", out of your 1000 forum-checks-and-balances that you're inquiring to. Consider my 2 cents given.

 

[Steve81]

It's very easy to blow money on this hobby.

There's an understatement

I agree with putting speakers first. In this case, I've gotten my 5.1 system fully assembled in the last twelve months (had been working with 2.1 until then) and recently upgraded subs, so my wife will crucify me if I say I want something new in that regard (and really, I don't have any complaints with their performance for what I want them to do).

OTOH, I purchased the Onkyo with the idea that I'd be running the RF-5s in a 2.1 setup with it. As I've added 3 less sensitive speakers to the equation, I no longer have as much confidence in its abilities. I could just hook an amp up to it, but the lack of zone 1 triggers irritates me, along with other factors (heat, no Audyssey curve selection, etc).

Consider my 2 cents given.

Wilco, and again, appreciated

 

[KEW]

Do you consider your current speakers to be your final speakers (or at least good for the next 10 years)? (Understand, I know nothing of that model!)

If not, you might consider future-proofing if you buy an amp and get something like the XPA-2 or XPA-3.

The Marantz does look good, but the absence of a spec for 4 ohms is very troubling.
Marantz capacitance:

The power section has a large transformer and Marantz original 15,000 μF / 71 V x 2 block condensers to provide a powerful, presence filled sound.

No mention of transformer size (which is not unusual).

Emotiva XPA-200:

90,000 uF of storage capacitance
360 VA heavy duty toroidal transformer

If you get serious about the XPA-200, it is essentially a "souped up" UPA-2. It may generate more heat than the UPA-2 did. Since you are putting it in a cabinet, you should inquire about cooling and maybe PM Gene to ask about your particulars of ventilation since the fins do not allow vertical air flow:

Ventilation seemed more than adequate, though the seemingly inefficient position of the fins seemed to indicate that air-flow should be left to right instead of vertical as the venting suggests. In either case I never experienced any shut-downs so it appears to be a non-issue provided you're not boxing the amplifier into a sealed space with little ventilation.

 

[KEW]

And then stuff them in a corner

That may have something to do with why you are still married and neither Adam nor I are!

 

[Steve81]

Do you consider your current speakers to be your final speakers (or at least good for the next 10 years)? (Understand, I know nothing of that model!)

Suffice it to say I don't expect any significant changes for the foreseeable future. Of course, I'd expect something like the XPA-200 to be proof against most anything I'd buy.

The Marantz does look good, but the absence of a spec for 4 ohms is very troubling.

I just noticed that myself skimming through its manual. Doesn't fill me with confidence at all... OTOH, the Parasound 2125 is rated all the way down to two ohms and is a little less costly, so I might put that in my list of candidates. Aesthetics leave something to be desired, but I'd not have any trouble sleeping at least

If you get serious about the XPA-200, I think it is essentially a "souped up" UPA-2. Since you are putting it in a cabinet, you should inquire about the orientation of the cooling fins and maybe PM Gene to ask about your particulars of ventilation if they fins do not allow vertical air flow

Interesting. Appreciate the heads up. I'd expect my current cabinet to do a decent job (it's pretty well ventilated, and I've got a fan in there as well), but its worth consideration when compared with the aforementioned Parasound.

 

[agarwalro]

One of my X-mas gifts is a Dayton Omnimic which should give me some idea of what the room/speaker interactions look like. Once I get that up and running, I'll at least be able to see what needs work, and go from there.

You should not do anything until you have the Omnimic running a fully understand what is lacking in your setup. You may buy a new receiver and amp only to realize that you only needed to play with the speaker placements/adjust listening position, or you needed better speakers or a second sub or the need for treatments is not optional. Right now you are just spitballing in the dark, so there is a high probability that your money will be wasted.

On the matter of sleeping better at night, you can just give me $1000 and we can both sleep better .

 

[Steve81]

You should not do anything until you have the Omnimic running a fully understand what is lacking in your setup.

This is pretty much guaranteed since I get the Omnimic on Tuesday, and I'm in no great rush to order anything.


Of course, it should be noted: I do acknowledge this upgrade is unlikely to yield significant sonic improvements. That's not the point of this (although an upgrade to Audyssey and a different target curve could achieve it all the same). It's more a matter of making sure I have enough power that I never have to worry about clipping with my setup at any volume I'd care to listen at.

 

[KEW]

Right now you are just spitballing in the dark, so there is a high probability that your money will be wasted.

On the matter of sleeping better at night...

I wouldn't go that far.
Many of us seriously enjoy spitballing!
And if he's like me, it'll set him right for a good nights seep every time!

 

[jostenmeat]

There's an understatement

I agree with putting speakers first. In this case, I've gotten my 5.1 system fully assembled in the last twelve months (had been working with 2.1 until then) and recently upgraded subs, so my wife will crucify me if I say I want something new in that regard (and really, I don't have any complaints with their performance for what I want them to do).

OTOH, I purchased the Onkyo with the idea that I'd be running the RF-5s in a 2.1 setup with it. As I've added 3 less sensitive speakers to the equation, I no longer have as much confidence in its abilities. I could just hook an amp up to it, but the lack of zone 1 triggers irritates me, along with other factors (heat, no Audyssey curve selection, etc).

Wilco, and again, appreciated

I see. Anyway, trigger and heat, I have a screwball to throw at you. Audyssey curves, can't help you too much. Well, actually, this little page with Chris K talking about Re-Eq might give you something to check out; I see someone bringing up the 707 as well.

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/93466-audyssey-onkyo-re-eq-button-feature-interaction

Ok, trigger/heat. Actually, with heat, and some people might get their underpants in a bundle over this as you lose out on potential power, but you could* change the ohms setting to the "lower" one. There is someone who I look up to in the AV world who does this with his 805, and it works fine with his setup. On mine, the temp decrease is truly dramatic. Big time. Easy for me to say or do, it's only a pre/pro for me.

But anyway, you could add a fan. And have everything* triggered, including the fan, have them all timed in fact, with power filter/surge protection, from a reputable company, with something like an APC unit. There is an AHer who got an older G15 and reviewed it, seems pretty nifty. I power up my stuff in a a very specific order, with time enough for every unit to completely power up before the next is up. (My Crown amp for sub takes an extremely long time, btw.) In this review, he states there are 4 banks that can all be delayed up to 1 minute (or less), and that the power down is (if I understand correctly) in the reverse order, and time delays cannot be changed.

AV Power Filters - Product Information

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/v-interconnects-cables-power-conditioning/59514-apc-g5.html

I'm not saying this is more desirable for you, (but I could see it being so for me, if I were in your shoes, depending). About $200 ($209 from Amazon) for the latest APC, not so much for a fan; a lot less than $1000 anyway, and you got 2 of the 3 birds killed (namely heat, more triggers than you were bargaining for, and then with other side bonuses). You might get longer life with components if they get to power up sequentially in specific order, but maybe you do that already. Anyway, just another new option play to consider.

I was tempted by this. As well as past pre/pros from a variety of makes. I was eyeing nice racks, like Middle Atlantic. I wanted new speakers. I took a long break from this forum, and probably saved a lot of money.

 

[PENG]

If the man wants an amp he is going to get an amp, but Jostenmeat is being brutally honest here. Having 99 dB/2.83V/M 8 ohm speaker with an Onkyo 707 is like have 89 dB/2.83/M 8 ohm with a Onkyo 707+Mc 1kW monoblock X 2 for 2 channel music. Given the believable specs of the 707 below:

100 W + 100 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz,
0.08%, 2 channels driven, FTC)

THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) 0.08% (Rated power)

One should not need any DBT to know adding either the 7025 or any Emo amp to the mix is going to yield audible SQ improvements, could actually be worse if anything IMHO. So the remaining issues are Zone 1 trigger and the concern of heat.

ADTG has been using a 3312 with his Philharmonic 3 that are much less sensitive with no problem getting crystal clear sound at volumes he needs. If the 3312 can resolve the trigger and heat issues then it is a low cost solution for now, until Steve is ready to go with lower sensitivity/efficiency speakers. Or the 6006 if look is more important to him, or the APC solution Jostenmeat suggested but that would be mean no new toy, i.e. less fun. At the end of the day, I think he wants an amp, regardless.

I am sure Steve is aware of what Klipsch says about amp power needs but just in case:

Klipsch Resource Center | Can any of your speakers handle a full kilowatt each or more?

 

[Steve81]

If the man wants an amp he is going to get an amp, but Jostenmeat is being brutally honest here. Having 99 dB/2.83V/M 8 ohm speaker with an Onkyo 707 is like have 89 dB/2.83/M 8 ohm with a Onkyo 707+Mc 1kW monoblock X 2 for 2 channel music. Given the believable specs of the 707 below:

One thought here: the specs of the Onkyo are believable, and I've seen comparable models bench tested to prove its worth (a big reason why I own it). OTOH, the specs of the Klipsch...less so. Consider the case of the matching center to my RF-5s, the RC-7:

Klipsch Reference RB-75 HT Labs Measures | Home Theater

Measured sensitivity of 94dB w/ 2.83V and a minimum impedance of 3.3 ohms changes things a bit vs rated 98dB and 8 ohm nominal. Add in three more speakers of lesser sensitivity and unknown load and things get a little more interesting. Finally consider a desire to credibly hit reference level with some room to spare, and you might begin to understand my conservatism a bit.

 

[Steve81]

Ok, trigger/heat. Actually, with heat, and some people might get their underpants in a bundle over this as you lose out on potential power, but you could* change the ohms setting to the "lower" one. There is someone who I look up to in the AV world who does this with his 805, and it works fine with his setup. On mine, the temp decrease is truly dramatic. Big time. Easy for me to say or do, it's only a pre/pro for me.

Interesting. Thanks for the tip (and the rest of your thoughts).

But anyway, you could add a fan.

I have

 

[PENG]

One thought here: the specs of the Onkyo are believable, and I've seen comparable models bench tested to prove its worth (a big reason why I own it). OTOH, the specs of the Klipsch...less so. Consider the case of the matching center to my RF-5s, the RC-7:

Klipsch Reference RB-75 HT Labs Measures | Home Theater

Measured sensitivity of 94dB w/ 2.83V and a minimum impedance of 3.3 ohms changes things a bit vs rated 98dB and 8 ohm nominal. Add in three more speakers of lesser sensitivity and unknown load and things get a little more interesting. Finally consider a desire to credibly hit reference level with some room to spare, and you might begin to understand my conservatism a bit.

I don't necessarily trust that review either but I agree with your concerns if those measurements are credible. Note that the reviewer did not specify dB/2.83V. If their numbers are for dB/W @ 1m, then after factoring in the impedance dips here and there, and the phase angels, the gaps would close quite a bit. Still, it probably wouldn't hurt to discount the Klipsch specs by 6 dB or so to play it safe and in that case let's just assume the sensitivity of your front mains are more like 92 dB/W @ 1m, forget about the 2.83V thing so you don't have to worry about the impedance and phase angles.

Now you can figure out realistic how much power you need if you factor in your listening distance and your preferred average SPL, for me it is around 75 dB but I guess you need 85 dB right? Regardless what your calculated number (need) is, it may not = what you want.

As I mentioned several times before, I have verified that I only need about 20W even at 80 dB avg with >15 dB of headroom, but I make sure I have 300W on hand to be able to hit >105 dB if I wish, so I am not going to discourage you from getting a power amp. I should remind you one more time though, that you know doubling the power only gets you 3 dB so you may want to forget about the nice looking 7025 and go straight to the XPA-2 or Parasound equivalent. The XPA-3 has more capacitance and VA than the XPA-5 but IMHO you need the XPA-2 if you really want to hear the power difference when you push the limit.

 

[Steve81]

I don't necessarily trust that review either but I agree with your concerns if those measurements are credible.

Unfortunately, they're the only thing I've got. I've asked Klipsch directly, but they're tight lipped on the subject.

Still, it probably wouldn't hurt to discount the Klipsch specs by 6 dB or so to play it safe and in that case let's just assume the sensitivity of your front mains are more like 92 dB/W @ 1m, forget about the 2.83V thing so you don't have to worry about the impedance and phase angles.

It still matters in terms of amperage, which I also calc out. 5 channels worth of speakers dipping down to 4 ohms or less has the potential to demand a fair bit, even with the relatively high voltage sensitivity they present. But again, I'm not doing this because I expect huge audible differences; it's peace of mind in knowing that I can push things to 0dB and expect clean unclipped output pretty much regardless of how full of it Klipsch is in rating their speakers. Of course, I never actually push things to reference making it completely arbitrary, but that's beside the point

Now you can figure out realistic how much power you need if you factor in your listening distance and your preferred average SPL, for me it is around 75 dB but I guess you need 85 dB right? Regardless what your calculated number (need) is, it may not = what you want.

Reference level is typically an 85dB average level, but each channel can peak up to 105dB, and they can all potentially peak simultaneously (though they rarely if ever do). I calc to the 105dB level; just for an example, into a 4 ohm load, with 95dB @ 2.83V, you're talking about ~135W into a 4 ohm load for one channel, which is a little under six amperes. Multiply that times five, and a midrange receiver could find itself in a world of hurt. Might not be real world, but I prefer safe over sorry. Plus lets face it, whatever I end up with is going to look badass, and that's half the fun too