Medical Insurance tactics - An Account

Dan

Dan

Audioholic Chief
Thanks for the offer. The best questions I can think of are:
1) to ask how big of a difference in quality he sees between different MRI facilities, and whether it matters much.
2) any guidelines for avoiding poor MRI facilities (contingent upon Item 1 mattering).
3) What does a new top notch MRI go for (this, more a simple curiosity than anything else).

A list of best machines sounds nice, but I don't know if he would know model numbers off the top of his head.[/QUOTE]

It's time for the resident audioholic radiolgist to weigh in. For the record, I am an abdominal imager at an East Coast academic institution (NOT Emory). I do read MR although of the chest abdomen and pelvis. I do look at a lot of outside MR and CT brought in for rereads and consults by our clinical docs.

There is a HUGE difference in quality especially in MRI when looking at good university MR vs. many outpatient MRI centers. Anything "open MRI" usually has disaster written all over it. Open magnets by design have lower field strength. The result is a lower signal to noise ratio (proportional to the difference in magnet strength all things being equal). Most "conventional" magnets are 1.5Tesla or 3 Tesla. Open magnets can be one tenth that, so the image is much noisier. Opens suck at small body parts like wrists or ones that require very homogeneous magnetic fields over large areas like brains and abdomens. There is a way to get around the SNR but it makes the examination much longer. Since the opens are outpatient high throughput profit centers, taking an hour to do a brain, spine or knee and gett a decent signal kills the profit when a conventional magnet can do the job in half the time. Most outpatient centers will not spend the time to do a good job with an open magnet. Only if you are very claustrophobic or truly huge would I consider an open magnet. I consider them the Bose of the MR world.

I would always want a fellowship trained radiologist in the area of my scan to look at it. You don't always get that in the private practice world and us radiologists are often pretty anonymous to the patient. Academic radiologists are much less interested in profit margin and make less than their private practice counterparts by a good bit. The advantage is that they only read in their specialty. I read abdomens not brains or spines. In private practice you may not get a fellowship trained neuroradiologist to read your brain or an abdominal imager to read your liver. I will grant that the big university hospitals are not as convenient to patients as the place in the strip mall, my university hospital is especially bad. However I think this outweighed by the advantages especially for high end radiology like CT and MRI. I don't know anyone at Emory very well but they are very respected in our world both in neuroradiology and body imaging. To do as well I think you would have to go to Duke, Vanderbilt or Alabama-Birmingham in the SE.

For those who want to know about the gear, the technology doesn't change all that fast lately. A good scanner that is five years old is fine for most anything. The biggest thing was the introduction of the 3 Tesla magnet a few years back. A new 1.5 Tesla goes for between 1.5 and 3 million depending upon the options you get with it. Prices are also negotiable based on the purchasing power of the purchasing entity. The big names in the US are GE and Siemens. Philips is pretty good, the Japanese companies trail. I think I went into radiology for many of the same reasons I am an audioholic.

Most of the comments about charges above are true. The $3600 price for a typical brain MR with contrast is a fiction. That is what we get when a Shiek shows up from overseas and pays cash for everything. :D The price is whatever we get paid by the insurer plus the copay. I agree it is all ridiculous.

Also, most clinicians can't really read an MR or even tell a good one from a bad one. Some do well in their specialty area but if the liver surgeon looks at the MR he won't know what to do about the kidney lesion, the neurosurgeon won't know about that salivary gland incidental mass etc. That is our job. We look at this stuff all day long.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
^Thanks Dan. :) Now I don't have to worry if I could retain any technical info given to me. :p I guess I could still ask if there might be any advantage with certain machines in relation to the brain in particular, even if I doubt it, but can't hurt to ask I guess. Well, I guess I can still ask about the cost of a machine, but then I just googled that, and iffy results give me the ballpark of somewhere between single digit and double digit millions of dollars.

My bro's very first day of fellowship, he was calling the shots on a patient with a shotgun blast to the face. :eek: Later that same year, I think he had an insane patient who had just stabbed into both of her own eyes. :eek:
 
Dan

Dan

Audioholic Chief
Any decent MR will do a good job on the brain. It is the most important application for the technology. I've never heard of a ten million dollar magnet but the installation can be pricey as the walls need RF shielding and theahmey weighs tons. It sounds like your brother is at a big time trauma center. He will see some really crazy $hit! It's wild but gets old after a while. I like transplants and GI disease better now that I'm a bit older.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
He was at a big time trauma center, really just for the fellowship, biggest/only one in a very, very large area. They had a jail that was a part of the hospital, or something like that too, anyway pretty crazy. He said cops were everywhere all the time. Now he just pretty much works on veterans. :)

Ok, I don't think I have any questions for him anymore now, thanks. Better git going now. :D
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Any decent MR will do a good job on the brain. It is the most important application for the technology. I've never heard of a ten million dollar magnet but the installation can be pricey as the walls need RF shielding and theahmey weighs tons. It sounds like your brother is at a big time trauma center. He will see some really crazy $hit! It's wild but gets old after a while. I like transplants and GI disease better now that I'm a bit older.
Not true.

Those open MRI scanners in shopping malls etc, are worthless for anything but extremity work. They are low Tesla units to boot.

The other issue is that MRI is not like getting and X-ray or CT scan. A neuroradiologist needs to bird dog the procedure. The magnet, and the more powerful the better, makes the hydrogen atoms in the body line up on their spin axis. Since we are mainly water we all have billions of hydrogen atoms.

The electromagnet is cooled close to absolute zero, as close as possible to -273 degrees Celsius with cryogens (mainly Argon as a refrigerant). At these temperatures the coil in the electromagnet has zero resistance. So once the coil is energized, (and it takes a massive amount of energy, you have to warn the power company), the current will flow round the coil for ever as long as the cryogens are maintained. No heat is generated as the resistance is zero. In this way a massively powerful magnet is produced, that will instantly cause any unsecured ferrous object to become a flying lethal missile.

Now the image is produced by sending radio frequency pulses into the area to be scanned. This makes the hydrogen atoms resonate. This is known as the dance. The hydrogen atoms reflect back radio frequency signals. From this signal the computer generates the image.

Now different tissues can be imaged differently by varying the frequency of radio pulse. This is known as the T weighting. In this way the radiologist can highlight the grey and white matter, or tumor differently by changing the T weighting.

At Altru Grand Forks we had first class neuroradiologists, especially Dr Jerry Smyser, who was one of our finest clinicians. He would show my all the tricks if the trade. In a case like yours he would always be watching the scan and either working the desk himself or giving frequent detailed instructions to the techs.

I have to say that was a pretty low move on the pat of BC/BS. I'm certain they know better, and if they don't they should.
 
Dan

Dan

Audioholic Chief
Perhaps I was unclear. An open magnet does not meet my definition of a decent magnet. It will do a passable job on knees and hips but will miss small cartillage defects and labral tears. It is terrible for ankles, shoulder and small joints where the abnormalities are small. Any modern 1.5 T should do a good job on a brain.

The open magnets have much lower field strength perhaps as low as 0.15 T. All other factors being equal SNR is directly proportional to field strength. In order t boost SNR one simple way to do it is to re excite the protons and sum the rsult. Doubling the number of excitatations (Nex) will increase the SNR by a factor of 1.414 (sq root of two over two) but will double the time of the sequence. The longer the time the more apt the patient is to move and ruin the image with motion. Private practice groups are not usually willing to take this extra time as it wrecks throughput.

The only open magnets I know of in big univerisities are for highly specialized applications like in a special OR suite so that neurosurgery or interventional radiology procedures can be done with the magnet to help localize things. The open magnet is needed to allow space for ones hands and instruments. I have done a few of these things, they are time consuming and difficult.

Most coolant that I know of is liquid Helium not Argon. I think Helium is cheaper but I'm not totally sure. Nitrogen is not cold enough. Now off to read some CT...
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Did you guys know that for awhile (before it was spun off into AE Techron) that Crown Audio made power supplies for GE, and I believe, Siemens imaging systems?

The were tapped because they were ahead of the curve decades ago on clean, properly modulated power supply systems.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
I came here to learn audio and now I learn about MRI machines.
 
Dan

Dan

Audioholic Chief
I did not know that about Crown. That would be unusual for GE. Their usual M.O. is tha if a small company makes something they want they buy the whole company. It is easier than trying to improve their own design.

Audio and MR and for that matter ultrasound have a lot in common. I got into audio first and I'm sure the toys are what attracted me to radiology.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
My brother just left a little bit ago. I figured you already got the pertinent info you needed, but I did bring up the subject just for a couple of minutes. He says that he doesn't see any difference with the brands, given that the magnet strength is similar. The brands he mentioned were exactly the same ones that Dan did. Open magnets are so bad, well these were his words: "You should see how bad the images are, it looks like a crayon drawing." He is only guessing, but he thinks the good modern machines cost about 3 million and up, and that it's just expensive all around, including maintenance, and they get helium shipped in for the cooling on a daily basis. (I didn't ask about argon.) If I got his gist right, I think he believes the more modern machines have a bit of an edge, not sure, but magnet strength was the big deal. The nicest machine he used was only one to two years old, and he said the resolution was sub-millimeter.

Right now he is working for the government, and they're trying to lobby for stronger MRIs. The cost of the machine is a real problem here, because one year's worth of funding is not nearly enough to buy a new machine, but then they're "not allowed to save year to year", as they are required to spend the given federal budget every year. Something like that anyway, I'm not sure what kinds of strings they need to pull to get the upgraded machines.

He talked about the existence of some super MRIs, I forgot how many Teslas they got up to, he was saying something like that they might sometimes be a one-of-a-kind machine that perhaps was designed by in-house PhD scientists or something, and that the resolution is so extremely high, the images are approaching the molecular level.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I spoke with the MRI technician who was really a geek about this stuff!:)
He said there were machines that went up to 7, but they were not really beneficial from a resolution standpoint (way more than enough). He said they were experimenting on using these as treatments for schizophrenics and other similar mental disorders. Maybe in PA (but really don't remember).
 
Dan

Dan

Audioholic Chief
When I interviewed for a job at NIH, they showed me a 9T magnet. It was made for lab rats. It is hard to get the field homogeneous enough for human sizes at such high field strengths. Also people have reported seeing auras and other odd effects from super magnetic fields so they are generally avoided excpet for research.

When we bought our house we were told that a previous buyer had backed out because they measured the magnetic field in the basement and found that it was 0.3 milliGauss (a Tesla is one million Gauss) over the backround field. I couldn't stop laughing.

Here is a better description of how powerful a 1.5T magnet is. Yes that is a floor buffer ripped out of the custodian's hands.
 

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