Entirely new! Help greatly appreciated!

[shadyJ]

Is there a specific way for one to tell how good a certain speaker will sound at higher volumes? Through its specs, perhaps? Or can this be determined only through testing and actual hearing?

I agreed earlier about not purchasing a sub for now with respect to my neighbor. Similarly, I'll have to refrain from blasting whatever speakers I end up getting to avoid complaints from current/future neighbors. I'll definitely revisit the Focal speakers you mentioned further down the road. That's only when I have a place all to myself!

What are the advantages/disadvantages of having the bookshelf speakers you mentioned vs. the floorstanding speakers? (Besides the obvious space reason.)

The key spec to look at is sensitivity. This is usually measured as 2.83V at 1m, or what would typically be 1 watt at 1 meter at 8 ohms (8 ohms is a typical impedance load for speakers). Basically how loud a speaker get for 1 watt at 1 meter. Average is around the high 80 dB range, above average is above 90 dB, and very good is high 90s/in the 100s. This isn't the whole story for the gauging how powerful speakers are, but it's a pretty good simplification for now.

There is more to powerful speakers than mere loudness however. Weaker speakers will compress the peaks in sound, even at normal listening levels, and can make some material sound flatter than it really is. The wider the dynamic range of the speakers, the less likely the peaks will get compressed, and the less compressed they will be. This is why I almost never recommend speakers with only small drivers unless space conservation is a big priority. 4" woofers can not do justice to bass.

The advantages that a tower speaker has over a bookshelf speaker is mainly just bass extension. Towers are usually expected to be able to run full range, so they shouldn't absolutely need the assistance of a subwoofer to play the entire content of most recordings. This is a generalization though, and is by no means an absolute rule. Bookshelf speakers aren't expected to handle bass as well as towers. Many bookshelf speaker systems are expected to be complimented by a subwoofer. If you have a decent subwoofer, there is no point in getting tower speakers over bookshelf speakers if everything else is equal, because the sub will usually be taking over the range of bass frequencies that towers can do over bookshelfs. Again, these are generalizations, and there are plenty of exceptions.

 

[KEW]

I would point out that the Pioneer speakers aren't likely to stay clean at levels the Primus speakers would take, especially the center speakers. I don't doubt that the Pioneers have a better tweeter, but it doesn't seem like they were built for as high volumes as the Infinity speakers.

Would you elaborate on this?
I have not driven these loud in a large room, but Zeigl says even the bookshelves do well at volume. I trust his judgement on this.
Gene is currently reviewing these speakers, so we will get measurements soon, but he has stated that the Pioneers are better as a general statement. You can see his statement in the Titus thread. I'd suspect the review is a couple of weeks away
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/931945-post24.html

However, if we are talking playing the Infinity's loud, it should be pointed out that the P363 does have a drop in impedance that would suggest external amplification. This can seen in Gene's review of the p363.

 

[KEW]

What are the advantages/disadvantages of having the bookshelf speakers you mentioned vs. the floorstanding speakers? (Besides the obvious space reason.)

In addition to the comments ShadyJ made, floorstanding speakers are usually more efficient than than the bookshelf version of the same speaker.

 

[zieglj01]

Gotta save money where I can! I figure every bit counts...and I can always put whatever I saved to my next speaker addition(s)!

At this point I'm pretty much sold on the FS52. I'll solidify my decision when I head down to Best Buy.

I'll wait it out a little longer and see if any deals arise that are similar to the ones I listed in my previous post. Fingers crossed in the mean time...

It is good to check a speaker out - however, Best Buy is not really a good
way to test the ultimate quality of a speaker. However, you may be able to
get a feel for it. However, the Pioneers are not voiced to jump out at you,
on a show-room floor. Some of them speakers will jump/shout at you on the
floor. The best way to test a speaker is in home for a trial period.

I am not concerned about who will win an ultimate loudness war, and I do
not even care. It is about overall quality to me. Whatever speaker you do
decide to purchase, is up to you. A lot of speakers will burp, before the so
called weak Pioneer speakers will, also some of them tweeters will leave a
sour taste. Also some speakers that tend to play louder, will really tend to
have a weak/dark sounding midrange - do not get fooled by some tweeter
voicings/levels on some speakers. The Pioneers will play louder, than some
of your neighbors will like.

Good Luck with whatever you choose in the future.

 

[shadyJ]

Would you elaborate on this?
I have not driven these loud in a large room, but Zeigl says even the bookshelves do well at volume. I trust his judgement on this.
Gene is currently reviewing these speakers, so we will get measurements soon, but he has stated that the Pioneers are better as a general statement. You can see his statement in the Titus thread. I'd suspect the review is a couple of weeks away
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/931945-post24.html

However, if we are talking playing the Infinity's loud, it should be pointed out that the P363 does have a drop in impedance that would suggest external amplification. This can seen in Gene's review of the p363.

The higher sensitivity, larger woofers, and greater recommended amplifier power all suggest the Primus speakers are more suited for higher volumes. Obviously the Pioneer bookshelf speakers are going to have limited dynamic range. No bookshelf speaker with 4" woofer and a 85 dB sensitivity is going to be an output monster. I don't think they would do badly as surround speakers, but I would not want them as a front stage set. I don't think the Infinitys would need external amplification either. I have blasted my own pair on a few different receivers, and I have never had a problem. Even after searching, I haven't heard of anyone having any problems with these speakers with any receiver.

 

[zieglj01]

Would you elaborate on this?
I have not driven these loud in a large room, but Zeigl says even the bookshelves do well at volume.

They did not run into a corner and cry.

 

[PENG]

If Sooper's preference is Denon, it is better to get one with Audyssey XT instead of the MultiEQ for better resolution. See comparison chart from link below.

http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/multeq

Not a show stopper though, at least MultiEQ can still do a decent job with the sub.

 

[Sooper]

If Sooper's preference is Denon, it is better to get one with Audyssey XT instead of the MultiEQ for better resolution. See comparison chart from link below.

MultEQ from Audyssey - Balanced Sound - Automatically Customizes Home Theater System | Audyssey

Not a show stopper though, at least MultiEQ can still do a decent job with the sub.

I see 2 differences between MultEQ XT and MultEQ: 8x more filter resolution for the satellites and 2 more measurement positions.

The price difference between the 1713 (with MultEQ XT) and 1613 (MultEQ) is approx. $70. Are the above improvements worth $70? Please let me know!

 

[Sooper]

Does anyone know if the Pioneer speakers come with their own wires? I could buy my own at Amazon (Amazon.com: RCA AH16100SN 100 Ft. 16-Gauge Speaker Wire: Electronics) but I'd rather not make another purchase if it's optional.

 

[zieglj01]

Does anyone know if the Pioneer speakers come with their own wires? I could buy my own at Amazon (Amazon.com: RCA AH16100SN 100 Ft. 16-Gauge Speaker Wire: Electronics) but I'd rather not make another purchase if it's optional.

You need to buy the wires.

 

[hizzaah]

I couldn't find any indication that they do.. Honestly you're better off with just buying some, included wire is usually a really small gauge like 20 or 22 and not worth the effort of unwrapping it. In fact, I think my original Onkyo 7.1 system came with 22 for the front and 24 for everything else lol.

 

[Grador]

That wire is copper clad aluminum, do not buy it.

Check out monoprice for some inexpensive copper wire.

 

[Sooper]

Oh, I didn't know there was even an alternative to wire-type. Is copper clad much worse than full copper? I found these on Monoprice: http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10239&cs_id=1023902&p_id=2748&seq=1&format=2. Any better?

Along the note of wires, how useful are banana plugs? How many are necessary if I go this route?

 

[zieglj01]

Oh, I didn't know there was even an alternative to wire-type. Is copper clad much worse than full copper? I found these on Monoprice: For only $12.01 each when QTY 50+ purchased - 50ft 14AWG Enhanced Loud Oxygen-Free Copper Speaker Wire Cable | 14AWG Loud Speaker Cables. Any better?

Along the note of wires, how useful are banana plugs? How many are necessary if I go this route?

Monoprice is fine

Banana plugs are not really needed - they come in handy if
you are doing a lot of connecting and disconnecting.

A little info here
Speaker Wire

 

[hizzaah]

That wire is copper clad aluminum, do not buy it.

Check out monoprice for some inexpensive copper wire.

Is he really gonna hear a difference? I'd imagine with the Pioneers there will be no audible difference between CCA and OFC 16 gauge wire. With a lower ohm speaker set and he's cranking it, possibly.. This is supported in the article zieglj01 linked to above is it not? I haven't seen reason to choose OFC over CCA in short run applications other than people claim it sounds better. Not trying to debate, just curious as to the reasons to only use OFC for home theater application

Oh, I didn't know there was even an alternative to wire-type. Is copper clad much worse than full copper? I found these on Monoprice: For only $12.01 each when QTY 50+ purchased - 50ft 14AWG Enhanced Loud Oxygen-Free Copper Speaker Wire Cable | 14AWG Loud Speaker Cables. Any better?

Along the note of wires, how useful are banana plugs? How many are necessary if I go this route?

Banana plugs aren't necessary, just make hooking things up easier. You'll be grateful if you ever have to move your system or hook it up in a tight space

 

[PENG]

The price difference between the 1713 (with MultEQ XT) and 1613 (MultEQ) is approx. $70. Are the above improvements worth $70? Please let me know!

I would not recommend either. I still recommend the 2012 models. You can still get the 1912 if you are willing to pay $350. I believe they have better power supply (more than 4 lbs heavier) and possible better amp sections than the 2013 models, plus you get full 7.1 channels and slightly better audio specs overall.

DENON AVR-1912 7.1ch Network A/V Home Theater Receiver w/ Airplay | Accessories4less

I paid $450 a few months ago and was impressed with it overall. As I said before, it has the MultiEq instead of the XT in the lower model 1712. The trade-off is that it has networking capability + Airplay.

 

[Sooper]

I'll definitely be moving around so I'll be sure to invest in banana plugs. Is it generally 2 plugs per speaker then? So a total of 10 plugs (5 pairs) for a 5.1 system and then RCA cable for sub?

I don't mind spending a few more bucks on OFC wire from monoprice if there's value behind it. And if I do order from monoprice, I figure I can grab the banana plugs from them as well and pay once for shipping ($8! )

 

[PENG]

I don't think the Infinitys would need external amplification either. I have blasted my own pair on a few different receivers, and I have never had a problem. Even after searching, I haven't heard of anyone having any problems with these speakers with any receiver.

I fully agree with you. I have also "blasted" my P362 (supposedly have the same drivers and crossovers as the 363) on different gear including a RX-V659 and never felt it could do better with more power. It certainly did not do better with my largest amp. For someone who has a large enough room more power will be needed but that would be true for most floor standing speakers. At 93 dB/m @2.83V, nominal impedance 8 ohms, they should be relatively easy to drive anyway, even with some impedance dips.

 

[Sooper]

I would not recommend either. I still recommend the 2012 models. You can still get the 1912 if you are willing to pay $350. I believe they have better power supply (more than 4 lbs heavier) and possible better amp sections than the 2013 models, plus you get full 7.1 channels and slightly better audio specs overall.

DENON AVR-1912 7.1ch Network A/V Home Theater Receiver w/ Airplay | Accessories4less

I paid $450 a few months ago and was impressed with it overall. As I said before, it has the MultiEq instead of the XT in the lower model 1712. The trade-off is that it has networking capability + Airplay.

I scoped out Denon receiver prices at my local Fry's and at the price of $350 they have an AVR-2112CI available. The one caveat is under "Availability" it says "Includes display items."

I guess I wouldn't mind forking out the extra $90 if I'm able to upgrade to 7.1 in the future without investing in a new receiver. Not too sure about the networking idea. What's the advantage behind this?

Thoughts from anyone about the 2112? Or whether if I should stick to 1613 or swap to 1912 or...? Options, options everywhere!

 

[Grador]

Is he really gonna hear a difference? I'd imagine with the Pioneers there will be no audible difference between CCA and OFC 16 gauge wire. With a lower ohm speaker set and he's cranking it, possibly.. This is supported in the article zieglj01 linked to above is it not? I haven't seen reason to choose OFC over CCA in short run applications other than people claim it sounds better. Not trying to debate, just curious as to the reasons to only use OFC for home theater application

Amplifier power has nothing to do with it, resistance is resistance regardless of wattage. Your stance is not backed up by the link that specifically states that unless you know how much copper cladding there is you have no clue what the resistance is. Finally, for 100 feet it will cost a whole $8 more for piece of mind between that RCA 16 gauge CCA and monoprice 16 gauge OFC.

I agree that chances are the CCA is perfectly fine, but is it really worth $8?