Entirely new! Help greatly appreciated!

[Sooper]

I purchased a 47" LG 3D LED TV a little over a year ago and hooked up a pair of old computer speakers for sound. I've always wanted a proper home theater system to complement the visuals, but I was turned away due to 1) very limited budget at the time and 2) the complexity of a HT setup (having the right A/V receiver, speakers, subwoofer, etc.). Fast forward to today: I have a decent budget now and I'm ready to learn more about HTS! Sorry in advance for any "stupid" questions! With that said, here's a little background:

Budget: $1000 for everything.

Want: Leaning towards 7.1 if possible, but willing to consider 5.1; 3D capability; no HTiB if possible (lots of people here seem to speak out against those so I'm guessing there's a reason...)

Uses: 45% gaming on my PS3/XBOX 360, 45% blu-ray movies on my PS3 (potentially 3D blu-ray), and 10% music.

Concerns:
1) I live on the 2nd floor of an apartment that is not the most soundproof. Thus I am not looking for bass heavy. However, I may be relocating soon so this might not apply in the near future.
2) I want to avoid hanging wall speakers to avoid the hassle of putting them up and taking them down when I do move from this apartment.

Questions:
1) Is such a system even possible given my budget?
2) Is there a noticeable difference between 7.1 and 5.1 for entry-level systems?
3) Is there a point to 7.1 if I'm not willing to have wall speakers?
4) How beneficial is Audyssey MultEQ when setting up speakers, etc. and should I invest in a receiver with this option?
5) Most important of all: What are your recommendations?? Send anything and everything at me! Names of receivers, speakers, subwoofers, you name it!

Thanks very much in advance.

 

[shadyJ]

I just have a couple quick pieces of advice. I would skip the subwoofer entirely for the time being. Wait until you get somewhere you can actually use it, and wait until you can actually afford a decent one. If you don't want to mount anything, I would just skip surround speakers as well. To be honest, $1k for a decent 7.1 or even 5.1 is not a lot. It can get you a pretty nice 3.0 or even better 2.0 though, and it can sound nice on its own and be a good start for the heart of a better system down the road.

Here is one suggestion I can give that can get you a decent 3.0 right away:
Denon AVR 1613: $350
Infinity Primus p363 tower speaker x 2: $400
Infinity Primus c351 center: $200

Another way to go for an eventual higher end system is, with the same receiver, get these Focal Chorus tower speakers. In my opinion, either of those systems will sound better than any equivalently priced new 5.1 setup. And you can add the other components later on as money and different housing allows. You can have a sound system that beats commercial theaters without spending a lot of money, if you choose your components wisely. If you go with just 2.0 for the time being, make sure you get the matching center speaker of that set when you upgrade later on. Don't get a mismatching center. Also, get your subwoofer from a manufacture direct sub maker, not from a retail store. You will get so much more for the dollar from a subwoofer specialist. Hsu, Rythmik, Power Sound Audio, SVS, and Outlaw Audio are some of the more affordable sub makers that are highly regarded.

To address a couple of your other points: there is not a big difference between 7.1 and 5.1. On a tight budget, it is definitely not a worthwhile upgrade. Audyssey, on the other hand, is well worth springing for. It will make a significant difference for the better.

 

[Sooper]

Thanks for your input, shadyJ. I will definitely look into the P363s as I believe my local Fry's has deals on those every so often. I'll make sure to grab the C351 as well if I go that route.

You mentioned I should avoid getting a mismatching center. Can surround speakers and the subwoofer be mismatching as well? Or just the center? I noticed the Infinity Primus has "matching" surrounds and subwoofer but you recommended I check out the specialists instead -- for the subwoofer at least.

If I were to go the higher-end route and invest in the Focal Chorus tower speakers, can you recommend good options for a center speaker and surround speakers in the long-run?

 

[hizzaah]

If you want to go 5.1 right away go with

Pioneer Andrew Jones
Floorstanding (mains) $100 each
Center $100
Bookshelf (surrounds) $100 per pair

Puts you at $400 for speakers

Refurbished Denon 1613 for $250 +ship from accessories4less. lots of people here buy refurbished units from them, great company to buy from.

Leaves you $350 for a sub.. Probably have to go with the HSU STF-2 $329 +s/h

Now, I might agree that 2.0 would be a better way of going for the moment if you're worried about your neighbors and the sub. Hard to say what the needs of your new place will be when you move so the recommendations might change. Although for the budget, the Andrew Jones w/ HSU is a solid 5.1 setup

Note that I didn't include the cost of cables/wires/stands in this setup. Shouldn't be too much additional cost though!

You mentioned I should avoid getting a mismatching center. Can surround speakers and the subwoofer be mismatching as well? Or just the center? I noticed the Infinity Primus has "matching" surrounds and subwoofer but you recommended I check out the specialists instead -- for the subwoofer at least.

If I were to go the higher-end route and invest in the Focal Chorus tower speakers, can you recommend good options for a center speaker and surround speakers in the long-run?

I believe that the matching center for those Focals is this one. Simply put, you want the front three to match so they'll all have the same type of sound characteristics/quality.

Surrounds will depend a bit on your budget, but there's quite a variety of options in bookshelf speaker arena to match the Focals

 

[Grador]

Mismatching surrounds is perfectly acceptable, and getting a subwoofer from a non-speaker company is usually advised.

 

[Sooper]

Thank you, hizzaah, for your 5.1 suggestion. It seems to be a less expensive option. How would the Pioneer Andrew Jones speakers compare with the Infinity Primus speakers that shadyJ recommended? It looks like the latter ones are approx. 2x pricier. Is there a big jump in sound quality? Looks like the Focal Chorus speakers would be an even bigger leap...

Thank you, Grador, for clarifying my mismatching speakers concern. I'll match up the front speakers with the center and look into a separate set for the rear. Along that note, any recommendations for the rear speakers?

A new concern: If I purchase a 5.1 receiver but limit myself to a 3.0 set-up, would I be losing the sounds that would otherwise be emitted through the rear speakers?

My thoughts right now are fairly split. It seems like I have 2 options: 1) settle for a budget 5.1 system that is cheaper but will need to be fully replaced (minus the sub maybe?) if I ever plan on upgrading OR 2) opt for a good 3.0 set up and then slowly get to a full 5.1 as my budget eventually allows.

Please keep the options coming, everyone! I'm learning a ton and your advice is definitely guiding me to a well-informed decision! Thank you!!

 

[KEW]

Thank you, hizzaah, for your 5.1 suggestion. It seems to be a less expensive option. How would the Pioneer Andrew Jones speakers compare with the Infinity Primus speakers that shadyJ recommended?

I had both setup for a direct comparison and I preferred the Pioneer FS52 to the Primus P363. However, without a sub, the Primus may be a better option, as it has more bass.
If you are close to a Frys, the P363 has been running $100 to $130 each on sale, which is the same as the FS52.

 

[PENG]

Thank you, hizzaah, for your 5.1 suggestion. It seems to be a less expensive option. How would the Pioneer Andrew Jones speakers compare with the Infinity Primus speakers that shadyJ recommended? It looks like the latter ones are approx. 2x pricier. Is there a big jump in sound quality? Looks like the Focal Chorus speakers would be an even bigger leap...

Thank you, Grador, for clarifying my mismatching speakers concern. I'll match up the front speakers with the center and look into a separate set for the rear. Along that note, any recommendations for the rear speakers?

A new concern: If I purchase a 5.1 receiver but limit myself to a 3.0 set-up, would I be losing the sounds that would otherwise be emitted through the rear speakers?

My thoughts right now are fairly split. It seems like I have 2 options: 1) settle for a budget 5.1 system that is cheaper but will need to be fully replaced (minus the sub maybe?) if I ever plan on upgrading OR 2) opt for a good 3.0 set up and then slowly get to a full 5.1 as my budget eventually allows.

Please keep the options coming, everyone! I'm learning a ton and your advice is definitely guiding me to a well-informed decision! Thank you!!

For $199, get the 1712 below:

FRYS.com | DENON

For some reason, Denon put Audyssey XT in the 1712 but only MultiEq in the more expensive 1912. XT has much higher resolution than MultiEQ, can calibrate base on 8 positions, if and when you add a subwoofer the higher resolution will come in handly.

I have not heard the Andrew Jones speakers but I can tell you the P362 are very nice sounding speakers, as long as you don't listen to large orchestral music such as concertos and symphonies. You should be able to put together a 4.1 system for $1,000 if you are willing to spend more time looking for deals. The 1712+P362 or P363 cost around $600, leaving you $400 for a decent sub + small satellites for the surrounds. The P363's are good enough to make do for the center, you won't notice much difference as long as you sit close enough to the mid point. If you go for the lower cost Andrew Jones ones then you can have a full 5.1, could be a tough choice.

 

[hizzaah]

If you've got a Fry's near you then you've probably also got a Best Buy. Demo the P363's at Fry's and the Pioneers at Best Buy.

Heck, order the Denon if you're good with it and when you get it in go pick up a pair of the P363's and a pair of the FS52's. (Best Buy has the Pioneers @ their usual $130ea, but people have had them price match with Tiger Direct's online price of $99). Take them home and set them up in your space to truly get a good idea of how they'll sound in your room. Then just return the pair you don't want (shouldn't be a restocking fee) and pick up the additional matching speaker(s)..

 

[zieglj01]

Concerns:
1) I live on the 2nd floor of an apartment that is not the most soundproof. Thus I am not looking for bass heavy. However, I may be relocating soon so this might not apply in the near future.

For your apartment - The Pioneer speakers, and they are good.

 

[shadyJ]

A new concern: If I purchase a 5.1 receiver but limit myself to a 3.0 set-up, would I be losing the sounds that would otherwise be emitted through the rear speakers?

You would be losing sounds that would come from the surrounds, but it is not a big loss at all. The surrounds rarely do more than make ambient noise: birds chirping, wind, cars going by, etc. Most movie sound tracks just don't use them very much. They do have a benefit in some games, but not all games. They are by far the least important channels in a surround sound system, and I almost always advise making sure the front stage is good enough and then spending on the surrounds. It is not worth having a lesser front stage for the sake of getting surround speakers. The fact that you don't want to mount anything makes them all the less of a priority, since it is recommended they be placed higher up and angled.

 

[Sooper]

KEW: Was less bass your only reason for choosing the FS52s over the P363s? Thanks for the comparison.

PENG: The $199 price tag is definitely appealing. The 1712 is unfortunately OOS at the only Fry's close to me. It looks like a lot of you do recommend Denon though, so I'll look into the 1613. Also, orchestral music is not to my tastes so I should be good there!

hizzaah: Best Buy is closer to me than Fry's. I'll try to demo the FS52s at BB first then. Hopefully I can also do a PM like you said to Tiger Direct. Is Fry's the only store that holds the P363s?

zieglj01: Appreciate your input!

shadyJ: Focus on front+center first -- understood. I'd love to pull the trigger on those FOCAL Chorus speakers you mentioned as they look fantastic. Sadly just that pair + receiver would put me over my budget. I'll just "make do" for now!

For now I'll be on the lookout for a sweet deal on the Denon AVR-1613 while checking out the FS52s at BB and P363s at Fry's. Meanwhile, hizzaah mentioned there are specific cables/wires I should purchase that aren't included with the receiver/speakers. May I ask what these might be and what's recommended? Thanks all!

 

[hizzaah]

Yeah, Fry's is the only one that carries the P363's as far as I know..

Don't be afraid to order the Denon online. Accessories 4 Less is seriously an awesome place.

Cables would just be speaker wire (16 or 14 gauge would be fine. dont spend a ton on this. you'll need a wire stripper too. buy a cheapo one) and a subwoofer RCA cable if it doesn't come with one or you need a longer one. Look into banana plugs if you'd like, not necessary but makes things a bit cleaner and easier. And HDMI cables or optical cables should you need them.

 

[Sooper]

Just researching the prices...I've found the following:

Denon AVR-1613: $260 refurb at a4l.com/$350 new --> Amazon was selling $270 new (Cyber Monday?)

Pioneer SF52: $100 new
Pioneer SP-C22: $70 new on Amazon currently (lowest was $60, also on Amazon Cyber Monday I believe)

Infinity Primus P363: $117 new at Fry's currently (lowest was $100 at Fry's)
Infinity Primus PC351: $199 new on Amazon currently (lowest $180)

With the price of a new 1613 having dropped all the way down to $270 at one point, it makes me wonder if I should wait to replicate the low price. Or should I settle for a refurb? I didn't see Accessories4less list the condition of the refurb; is it still worth the risk? Do refurb receivers from A4l come with any cables/wires?

As for the speakers, the Pioneer route seems more budget-friendly but mostly because their center speaker dips below $100 whereas the Infinity Primus PC351 has never gone $20 below the usual $200 price tag. Is the Infinity Primus PC351 worth the extra $110 compared to the Pioneer SP-C22 for the center?

 

[hizzaah]

Just researching the prices...I've found the following:

Denon AVR-1613: $260 refurb at a4l.com/$350 new --> Amazon was selling $270 new (Cyber Monday?)

Pioneer SF52: $100 new
Pioneer SP-C22: $70 new on Amazon currently (lowest was $60, also on Amazon Cyber Monday I believe)

Infinity Primus P363: $117 new at Fry's currently (lowest was $100 at Fry's)
Infinity Primus PC351: $199 new on Amazon currently (lowest $180)

Always good when people do their own research as opposed to waiting for one of us to do it lol.

With the price of a new 1613 having dropped all the way down to $270 at one point, it makes me wonder if I should wait to replicate the low price. Or should I settle for a refurb? I didn't see Accessories4less list the condition of the refurb; is it still worth the risk? Do refurb receivers from A4l come with any cables/wires?

Your next bet will be an after Christmas sale. We're so close to that, I probably would recommend you wait for it anyways.. Refurbs should be in pretty good shape though and include everything a new one would. According Amazon, new ones come with: AVR-1613 Integrated Network AV Receiver, remote control, two AAA batteries, setup microphone, FM indoor antenna, Quick Setup Guide, and CD-ROM owner's manual. So looks like you'll need speaker wire. It's cheap though ($10 for 100ft for 16 gauge on Amazon). Don't look at it as settling, you're getting a great price on a nice receiver! Has a full warranty and everything!

Also, judging by the user manual, the HSU sub I recommended doesn't include an RCA cable, that should be just a few bucks..

As for the speakers, the Pioneer route seems more budget-friendly but mostly because their center speaker dips below $100 whereas the Infinity Primus PC351 has never gone $20 below the usual $200 price tag. Is the Infinity Primus PC351 worth the extra $110 compared to the Pioneer SP-C22 for the center?

I'd say the real gold with the Primus line was the P363's and the high priced center isn't as good of a deal. They have better bass, but you're going to have a dedicated sub so that won't really matter as much. The Pioneers are the new budget kings and the center/surrounds are as good of a bargain as the mains.

Since you're in this apartment, maybe just get a 3.1 system for now. You won't get the effects of the surrounds, but you'll have a massive jump in sound quality. That HSU sub will be a blast! Then when you move, and have a way to properly position the surrounds, pick up a set as a move in gift

 

[KEW]

KEW: Was less bass your only reason for choosing the FS52s over the P363s? Thanks for the comparison.

Pioneer SP-FS52 vs. Infinity P363
I have always felt that the P363 was not as articulate with bass as I am used to. Comparing it with the Pioneers underscored this. The P363 definitely puts out more bass energy, but the Pioneer is clearly more articulate. To use TSLGuy’s terminology, my sense is that the P363 commits sins of commission while the Pioneers only commit sins of omission. The Pioneers are decent as full range speakers - for most music I was content with the bass provided when I listened to them at length. However, more bass is welcome.
The mid-range sounded very close to me. With the change in bass between the speakers, I really could not detect differences in the mid-range.
On the upper end, the Pioneer tweeter really outclasses the P363 tweeter. They are not close. The Pioneer tweeter is much closer to the Salk’s ribbbon than to the P363’s. I feel the Pio tweeter is the equal of the tweeter in my EMP-41Be speakers.
Conclusion
I think these are the new standard bearer for budget speakers. They clearly outperform the P363s (though arguably someone who wanted more bass and was willing to sacrifice articulation and HF extension might prefer the P363) at a lower price!
This option is especially exciting for the beginner on a budget. A pair of these will give you very good sound as a standalone solution. Everything on these speakers seems well balanced - bass being the biggest compromise. Later adding and tuning a good sub will get excellent sound.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/loudspeakers/81868-pioneer-andrew-jones-sp-pk52fs-review-6.html Post #51

 

[KEW]

For me, the FS52 is a no-brainer. Especially if you want to keep your neighbors happy. (it doesn't take 20Hz to penetrate the walls).

I have bought close to a dozen refurbs from A4L and don't regret any of them. Most were new as far as I could tell (but they are repackaged in plain boxes and have a refurb sticker). I had a brain fart with one of my receivers (I thought it was defective, but the defective component in the system turned out to be me). They asked some basic questions to make sure I had not missed the obvious, then sent me a replacement. Never gave me any hassle or treated me like I was trying to scam them. Good CS, and you do get a manufacturer warranty (length varies by manufacturer, IIRC).

 

[Sooper]

hizzaah:

Always good when people do their own research as opposed to waiting for one of us to do it lol.

Gotta save money where I can! I figure every bit counts...and I can always put whatever I saved to my next speaker addition(s)!

That HSU sub will be a blast!

Haha, that's actually what I'm afraid of! I think I'll be taking shadyJ's advice from earlier and keep to 3.0 instead of 3.1 for now. As much as I'd love to get as close to that awesome cinematic experience as possible, I doubt my downstairs neighbor would share the same view. Some day for sure though!

KEW: Very detailed comparison -- most of which probably went over my head but I still got the gist! At this point I'm pretty much sold on the FS52. I'll solidify my decision when I head down to Best Buy.

I'll wait it out a little longer and see if any deals arise that are similar to the ones I listed in my previous post. Fingers crossed in the mean time...

 

[shadyJ]

I would point out that the Pioneer speakers aren't likely to stay clean at levels the Primus speakers would take, especially the center speakers. I don't doubt that the Pioneers have a better tweeter, but it doesn't seem like they were built for as high volumes as the Infinity speakers. The Pioneer center looks particularly weak. This probably wouldn't be a problem in the meantime when you can't let your system rip, but if you ever wanted to listen to movies at commercial theater sound levels, the Pioneers are not going to be getting anywhere near those levels. If you are interested in that kind of sound, I would recommend looking at a pair of solid Klipsch bookshelf speakers, like the RB-61. To a lesser extant, there is also the Hsu HB-1 and HC-1, which also have a decent dynamic range, and aren't quite as brutal as the Klipsch speakers. What's nice about these speakers is they can be driven very easily by any amplifier. It only takes a few watts to make those Klipsch blaze.

 

[Sooper]

...This probably wouldn't be a problem in the meantime when you can't let your system rip, but if you ever wanted to listen to movies at commercial theater sound levels, the Pioneers are not going to be getting anywhere near those levels.

Is there a specific way for one to tell how good a certain speaker will sound at higher volumes? Through its specs, perhaps? Or can this be determined only through testing and actual hearing?

I agreed earlier about not purchasing a sub for now with respect to my neighbor. Similarly, I'll have to refrain from blasting whatever speakers I end up getting to avoid complaints from current/future neighbors. I'll definitely revisit the Focal speakers you mentioned further down the road. That's only when I have a place all to myself!

What are the advantages/disadvantages of having the bookshelf speakers you mentioned vs. the floorstanding speakers? (Besides the obvious space reason.)