Ramblings of a man who likes $300 receiver sound over $1,600 Denon 4311ci.

[bizmord]

This is probably mostly ramblings BUT, something I've noticed and maybe you can clarify a thing or two for me based on your years of experience.

If you look at my signature here .... I got some decent gear. Love my subwoofer ... no regrets paying $1,000), really like the sound quality of speakers .... decent surrounds. Can't complain.

A friend started getting into my head with all the .... "dude, your speakers and everything is great ... your cheap Yamaha rxv465 receiver is killing it all".

So .... I went ahead, got 2 receivers ... Onkyo 818 and Denon 4311. Impressive looking receivers. Makes my Yamaha look like a joke.

Few things to keep in mind .....

My environment .... lots of sound bounce off points. Some bare walls, leather couch, no room treatment at all.

My use of system.... I do 70% regular TV (shows, concerts, sitcoms, series, etc), 20% blue-ray movies, 10% music.

This is where I see some revelation. The way movies are made is to overuse that sound effect knob. This is why so many people complain of having to reach for remote once there is shooting or explosions and such in the movie. I notice that regular TV programming is recorded in a way where it's a bit more balanced, even in drama series, etc. And here is the problem ..............

When using Denon or Onkyo new receivers ... after room correction etc .... it would dim down my speakers, probably to fix sound bounce off and thus I noticed that sound effects are now a bit more balanced, I can hear more of my rear channels, and movies actually became better sounding, BUT ...... 70% of my regular TV watching did not improve. It actually became worse. Sound was not as projecting and clear as my old receiver made it.

So ..... TV watching is great. Not complaining ... 70% of my TV life is nice. Music .... good too. BUT .... movies .... I still reach for that remote on loud scenes.

And so....... I am still itching to try Yamaha RX-A2010. Maybe YAPO system will give me a better result than Audyssey. Maybe I am too lazy and didn't do the set up correctly. (I did not use a tripod for mic, etc).

what do you think?

 

[Steve81]

Sound was not as projecting and clear as my old receiver made it.

If I'm understanding your complaint right, one simple thought would be to boost the center channel volume a couple dB.

I still reach for that remote on loud scenes.

That's the joys of uncompressed dynamic range. You can apply some DRC in your receiver settings to smooth things out a bit.

Maybe I am too lazy and didn't do the set up correctly. (I did not use a tripod for mic, etc).

Do get a tripod. They're relatively cheap and you can pick one up at Target or wherever.

 

[bizmord]

If I'm understanding your complaint right, one simple thought would be to boost the center channel volume a couple dB.



That's the joys of uncompressed dynamic range. You can apply some DRC in your receiver settings to smooth things out a bit.



Do get a tripod. They're relatively cheap and you can pick one up at Target or wherever.

I did increase center channel before .... little help. I did turn ON the DRC option on my BluRay player. Sounded too muted.

 

[j_garcia]

I think by most accounts YPAO is not better than Audessey, so that is not going to fix your problem.

DRC does more harm than good IMHO, but I don't have an Audessey equipped receiver. With my older systems, I did have to drop the sound down during heavy scenes in movies. I don't anymore through careful, manual calibration. Do you have a pic of the front stage?

You may have actually had some "unintended" DRC previously as those speakers likely taxed the amp to the point where it could not deliver any more power to them, thus limiting your output. Sounds weird, but it may be the case.

What *I* might try then, is adjusting the actual locations of your speakers and/or seating position, and consider some room treatments. You probably don't have to go crazy with treatments, but a few to control things a bit.

 

[Steve81]

I did turn ON the DRC option on my BluRay player. Sounded too muted.

I'd suggesting trying one of the DRC options on your receiver. Audyssey has a variant that I've found to do a decent job, though YMMV.

In any event, I'd recommend getting a tripod and rerunning Audyssey as prescribed here:

"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1)

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think if you bypass all RC/EQ/DSP, a $300 AVR will sound like a $20,000 amp......wait there is a DBT a while back to prove that.

I think a $300 AVR can sound as good as a $5,500 AVR if you bypass all RC/EQ/DSP. That's what I think. Did it stop me from buying the $5,500 AVR? Hell no.

 

[panteragstk]

Ah, the age old question. The subjectivity of home audio rears it's head again. What really is "good" or "better" anyway? What in the more expensive receivers make them "better"? Is the the amp? The DSP? The extra features? Yes, no, maybe.

My philosophy has always been "if you're happy with what you have, then don't worry about it". Your friend telling you your receiver is holding you back should provoke some questions from you. "Why would you say that?" would be the first. I've herd professionally calibrated Classe systems with B&W 8xx series speakers and remember thinking "meh" for home theater. The blu-ray that was playing was a good one, but to me the cost of the system didn't seem apparent.

Also listened to a McIntosh and Dahli system that was even more expensive. Same feeling. It was great, don't get me wrong, but I just don't think it was $100k great. I've heard properly calibrated systems a tenth of the price and was equally impressed.

Setting up your equipment properly is #1. It's like buying a $5k set of golf clubs as a beginner, you aren't getting anything you wouldn't get from a used set from a garage sale that was only $1k new 15 years ago.

You may honestly just be used to the way your yamaha receiver sounds with your speakers, and that is your preference. Nothing at all wrong with that, but it doesn't mean it was set up properly, also nothing wrong with that. What you could be hearing with your new setup, is the difference between YAPO and Audyssey. That's a guess, but that could be it. Ever thought of getting a higher end Yamaha?

 

[j_garcia]

Yes he is thinking about it.

Ever thought of getting a higher end Yamaha?

And so....... I am still itching to try Yamaha RX-A2010. Maybe YAPO system will give me a better result than Audyssey. Maybe I am too lazy and didn't do the set up correctly. (I did not use a tripod for mic, etc).

 

[GranteedEV]

if your speakers need great amounts of correction from the auto-EQ, it's a sign their design is lacking. Stick to not using EQ. The best advantage of auto room setup is the delays it sets.

 

[j_garcia]

I'm going to guess the Ascends he has are not seriously lacking , and lots of EQ can be the room not just the speakers.

Does the current Yamaha receiver have pre-outs? Just add an amp and done.

 

[GranteedEV]

I'm going to guess the Ascends he has are not seriously lacking

Well they do have a bit of excess off-axis energy between 2khz to 5khz or so. But my main point is that OP should try regular old "no EQ" mode if his speakers are sufficiently good in the listening window (which the ascends are)

and lots of EQ can be the room not just the speakers.

Only below the shroeder frequency.

 

[GranteedEV]

I'm going to guess the Ascends he has are not seriously lacking

OP should try regular old "no EQ" mode if his speakers are sufficiently good in the listening window (which the ascends are) because the way we hear will emphasize the listening window frequency response.

But that said, the Sierra-1s do have excess off-axis energy between 2khz to 5khz that could make them bright in reflective rooms - which IMO is a speaker flaw.

and lots of EQ can be the room not just the speakers.

Only below the shroeder frequency.

 

[panteragstk]

I'm going to guess the Ascends he has are not seriously lacking , and lots of EQ can be the room not just the speakers.

Does the current Yamaha receiver have pre-outs? Just add an amp and done.

But would an amp really DO anything for him? I mean, a lower end receiver like that doesn't have pre-outs. That looks to be the Yamaha equivilant to my cheapo pioneer. I like mine, but my speakers are so cheap is laughable, but you know what? My system sounds good to me... until I hear something better and remember what it's like. Then I'm sad.

I would just go with a higher end yamaha and see if that helps.

 

[j_garcia]

OP should try regular old "no EQ" mode if his speakers are sufficiently good in the listening window (which the ascends are) because the way we hear will emphasize the listening window frequency response.

But that said, the Sierra-1s do have excess off-axis energy between 2khz to 5khz that could make them bright in reflective rooms - which IMO is a speaker flaw.

Your room is your problem I agree though, if you have a bright room, you will want to be careful about the speaker you choose. I completely agree about NO EQ though. Start without it, because if you don't like how it sounds without it, you are fighting an uphill battle.

But would an amp really DO anything for him? I mean, a lower end receiver like that doesn't have pre-outs. That looks to be the Yamaha equivilant to my cheapo pioneer. I like mine, but my speakers are so cheap is laughable, but you know what? My system sounds good to me... until I hear something better and remember what it's like. Then I'm sad.

I would just go with a higher end yamaha and see if that helps.

Adding an amp to a receiver that has pre-outs (and I am guessing this one does not) keeps the sonic signature of the pre and just adds more power. If he wasn't pushing it to the limit where the receiver was clearly clipping before, an amp will likely add little aside from headroom though, this is true. A new Yamaha may present much the same issue as the Onkyo or Denon, and "tweaking" a system with the receiver is a band-aid, not a fix.

I have to agree too though, if the OP was happy with the way it was, just stick with that. It didn't sound like he was looking for more power.

 

[panteragstk]

Adding an amp to a receiver that has pre-outs (and I am guessing this one does not) keeps the sonic signature of the pre and just adds more power. If he wasn't pushing it to the limit where the receiver was clearly clipping before, an amp will likely add little aside from headroom though, this is true. A new Yamaha may present much the same issue as the Onkyo or Denon, and "tweaking" a system with the receiver is a band-aid, not a fix.

I have to agree too though, if the OP was happy with the way it was, just stick with that. It didn't sound like he was looking for more power.

That's why I asked. It sounds to me like a deeper issue. I suppose different receivers have different sonic characteristics, but to be that much different (negatively so) from such a cheaper receiver is just plain odd. So I agree with you guys, it has to be EQ related. What I find even more odd is that it would only show up in movies. He stated that music and TV sound fine. That doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

[unemployed]

Just hooked up a new Yammie RX-A3010. I'm using it as a prepro with an external Multichannel amp. Sounds darn good. Amazon and World Wide Stereo through Amazon had them at a very good price. Both are authorized dealers.