Stop The Loudness Wars: A Petition

haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Warlord
From Audiostream.com: http://www.audiostream.com/content/stop-loudness-wars-petition



Michael Green of Swansea, UK has had enough. Instead of griping about dynamic compression and the loudness wars, he's decided to send record labels and retailers a message:

As music lovers we are fed up [with] the compressed albums available today and would like to see uncompressed albums released, along with High Definition (24 Bit) music downloads. We believe that this is the way forward to reintroduce people to music the way it’s meant to sound.

You can join in the campaign by going here and signing Michael's petition.
http://www.change.org/petitions/stop-the-loudness-wars-and-release-high-definition-music-downloads
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
You don't need a petition, because until people start voting with their dollars, it won't make the slightest difference. They are simply giving the people what they want.
 
skizzerflake

skizzerflake

Audioholic Field Marshall
You don't need a petition, because until people start voting with their dollars, it won't make the slightest difference. They are simply giving the people what they want.
The petition may be a quixotic thing, but the problem is that most people are drawn to music they like and will buy it no matter how it sounds. The people don't actually want bad sound but they are listening in ways that make it mostly irrelevant. Cheap earbuds in a noisy environment don't make for much of a listening experience.
 
N

Nestor

Senior Audioholic
They aren't giving people what they want because people don't know any better.

A new generation has hardly heard anything different.
 
skizzerflake

skizzerflake

Audioholic Field Marshall
In spite of all the tech improvements, sound quality has seriously declined in the past decade. Sad.
 
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Warlord
You don't need a petition, because until people start voting with their dollars, it won't make the slightest difference. They are simply giving the people what they want.
Better to do nothing then yes :p
 
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Warlord
The petition may be a quixotic thing, but the problem is that most people are drawn to music they like and will buy it no matter how it sounds. The people don't actually want bad sound but they are listening in ways that make it mostly irrelevant. Cheap earbuds in a noisy environment don't make for much of a listening experience.
Then we should start educating people, prove how much more listening pleasure you may get with good recordings in a proper format like wav and flac, when people start making more tough requirements perhaps even parts of the industry will improve :p

my wife thought mp3 was a good format, that is until I showed her the difference between a proper ripped song into flac, and the same one in mp3, it's safe to say that her enjoyment of good music also improved in that process.

Education is the thing here !
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Better to do nothing then yes :p
Its not that simple Haraldo.

To do what you want literally means turning your back on the current pop culture. Within the frame work of the current pop culture and music production, what you want is impossible!

Let me explain. I will start from what we know.

Loudness is directly related to the RMS factor of the program. So to make it louder, you have to increase the average RMS factor.

Now, music can actually have a wide dynamic range and appear to have none.

Take a kick drum, especially a sampled one. There is huge dynamic range but they are all spikes, so average RMS is high and it seems loud all the time.

So how do you vary loudness.

The two traditional ways.

1). You blow, bow, or strike louder. As you do this with natural instruments the timbre changes, which also makes the music more interesting.

2). You add voices.

Those are the only traditional ways of doing it.

I have been thinking about this issue a lot of late. A lot of our AES meetings are held at colleges and schools offering training in the musical pop culture. I have had a chance to examine it up close. Also my rig is now used to evaluate a good deal of their work for their grades. I have been asking a lot of awkward questions at the meetings, and more often than not there are a lot of students present. For some strange reason at the end of the meetings the students seem attracted to a curmudgeonly old bloke at the end of the meetings like a magnet.

So where is the problem.

Well there is another way of increasing the RMS value. If you have a sound at 0db, you can't increase it. It will distort. So you add a limiter, shave the peak, lower the threshold. This will increase the RMS value as the crest is lowered, and the sound is louder, as the RMS value has increased.

So how does this happen and why?

Well the first reason is that there are few voices, and a lot, may be the majority, from sampled sounds. A lot of this is money driven. You only pay for sampled sounds once. Musicians are paid by the session.

Now understand this, you can not change the dynamic of sampled sounds, except by the limit and threshold method, and it does not change timbre. This makes the music dull also.

So that means you only have the addition of voices, to really change the dynamic.

Now in Abelton Live, which seems to be almost universally used for pop productions these days, it is very awkward to add and subtract voices on the fly. At least compared to the stop action of a pipe organ. I have repeatedly offered to take Abelton to staff to a pipe organ to really understand a method that has been honed and perfected over centuries. But with modern hubris they want to reinvent the wheel.

I think there is a psycho acoustic factors at work also. Music sparsely scored for few voices is best delivered as intimate music. I think to turn it into a full bore loud production does violence to the human psyche.

Take Richard Wagner. He uses a huge orchestra, huge choruses and soloists. The forces are vast. However the greater part of his long music dramas are lightly scored and intimate. Essentially it is chamber music. However he has a huge pallet and can add a huge number of voices at will. Since he had no sampled sound to work with, he could only add voices and use the dynamic possibilities of all the instruments and singers.

The bottom line of all this is that if you don't like this dynamic/loudness problem, then you absolutely have to turn your back on the pop culture, and embrace another genre of music. There is no other solution for you.

Your petition is useless, as there is no remedy for you the way the industry is geared now and I suspect for some time to come.
 
N

Nestor

Senior Audioholic
Defeatism is never a strategy for changing what you don't like.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Defeatism is never a strategy for changing what you don't like.
Well then get ready to change a large geared industry and re write an awful lot of software.

Actually to do this without going back and hiring lost of studio musicians, which in these money grubbing years will not happen, is true musical synthesis.

I embarked on such a project with my son about 8 years ago. We actually achieved quite a lot. It is very difficult. My son had to earn a living and our project Sarkus is on indefinite hold.

However until some one devotes the resources to move away from musical samples to true synthesis, nothing will change in a substantial way. That is not defeatism but reality.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
"Impossible" is defeatist.
Well certain things are, for instance making a rock speak to you. My son has shown how dynamic shaping if sampled sounds is as impossible as the example I quoted. So that is a dead end.

To get out of this box does need system wide transformation and that is the problem.

The music of the pop culture truly is inferior music, and getting worse. That is actually demonstrable from many angles.

Fortunately none of the music I listen to is beset, by any of the problems addressed in this thread.

So this is in fact a cultural issue rather than primarily a technical one.
 
skizzerflake

skizzerflake

Audioholic Field Marshall
Then we should start educating people, prove how much more listening pleasure you may get with good recordings in a proper format like wav and flac, when people start making more tough requirements perhaps even parts of the industry will improve :p

my wife thought mp3 was a good format, that is until I showed her the difference between a proper ripped song into flac, and the same one in mp3, it's safe to say that her enjoyment of good music also improved in that process.

Education is the thing here !
I've had that discussion with my wife but her perspective (like a lot of women I have said this to) is that they "like music, not equipment". It's really a hard sell to convince them that they might like the music even more if it were not distorted and strangulated. She is quite happy listening to mp3 or streamed music by plugging her Iphone into some $50 computer speakers, or, horror of horrors, listening to music through the little speaker in the phone so I just stay neutral. She's had her ears checked and they're in better shape than mine. To most of the people I know, bad sound seems to be what they expect.
 
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Warlord
I've had that discussion with my wife but her perspective (like a lot of women I have said this to) is that they "like music, not equipment". It's really a hard sell to convince them that they might like the music even more if it were not distorted and strangulated. She is quite happy listening to mp3 or streamed music by plugging her Iphone into some $50 computer speakers, or, horror of horrors, listening to music through the little speaker in the phone so I just stay neutral. She's had her ears checked and they're in better shape than mine. To most of the people I know, bad sound seems to be what they expect.
If you bought her some better speakers, like Audioengine 2, or something similar she would appreciate the difference more.... with $50 computer speakers you won't hear the difference anyways..... better to demonstrate by showing this in practice then by talking :p

And bring some candles too :D
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I've had that discussion with my wife but her perspective (like a lot of women I have said this to) is that they "like music, not equipment". It's really a hard sell to convince them that they might like the music even more if it were not distorted and strangulated. She is quite happy listening to mp3 or streamed music by plugging her Iphone into some $50 computer speakers, or, horror of horrors, listening to music through the little speaker in the phone so I just stay neutral. She's had her ears checked and they're in better shape than mine. To most of the people I know, bad sound seems to be what they expect.
I think people are getting confused. Digital compression and dynamic range compression are totally different things. Lossy codecs have nothing to do with the db difference between loud and soft.

The problem with modern production techniques are that it limits dynamic range right at the start. It won't matter what format you put it in. I think there are good technical reasons that pop music will be much less adversely affected than classical music. For one thing there is little or no ambient envelope and what there is is usually artificial. Another issue is that the left right stage is totally artificial and can be manipulated to minimize the effects of digital compression in lossy codecs.
 
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Warlord
I think people are getting confused. Digital compression and dynamic range compression are totally different things. Lossy codecs have nothing to do with the db difference between loud and soft.

The problem with modern production techniques are that it limits dynamic range right at the start. It won't matter what format you put it in. I think there are good technical reasons that pop music will be much less adversely affected than classical music. For one thing there is little or no ambient envelope and what there is is usually artificial. Another issue is that the left right stage is totally artificial and can be manipulated to minimize the effects of digital compression in lossy codecs.
Sorry if I'm confusing people, this is more a proof of the loudness war:
This is from Bruce Springsteen's magic album:


This is from Leif Ove Andsnes, The Beethoven Journey


Wander why The Boss even allows these things to happen, to allow to make a mess of his music like this.....
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Sorry if I'm confusing people, this is more a proof of the loudness war:
This is from Bruce Springsteen's magic album:


This is from Leif Ove Andsnes, The Beethoven Journey


Wander why The Boss even allows these things to happen, to allow to make a mess of his music like this.....
The Boss had a hand in the mess.

Make an recording in that fashion and you will get sausage, which by the looks of that wav is what they got and deserved to.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Music is an art and how that art is portrayed is subjective not objective. Pop music is popular because more people like it than other genres. That said there are probably more studios doing good recording now than ever before. Since doing recording is easier than it's ever been.

FWIW I like a lot of the new stuff. Because to me a song is more than how it's recorded.

There are more places to get music than iTunes.
 
djreef

djreef

Audioholic Chief
I think people are getting confused. Digital compression and dynamic range compression are totally different things. Lossy codecs have nothing to do with the db difference between loud and soft.

The problem with modern production techniques are that it limits dynamic range right at the start. It won't matter what format you put it in. I think there are good technical reasons that pop music will be much less adversely affected than classical music. For one thing there is little or no ambient envelope and what there is is usually artificial. Another issue is that the left right stage is totally artificial and can be manipulated to minimize the effects of digital compression in lossy codecs.
Trudat, but This crap is creeping into major label Jazz recordings now, and I can't stand for that.

DJ
 

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