Emotiva sale

[KeithL]

Unfortunately, the sound cards in most computers are pretty sad. Part of that is because many of them are simply just an afterthought, but another part is that even a decently designed sound card is at a huge disadvantage because the inside of a PC is a very unfriendly place for sensitive audio circuitry (lots of digital noise, dirty power, poor grounds). In most cases, a separate DAC is a major step up.... really.

I would also disagree that an A/V receiver is simpler; that depends on what you're aiming for. If you simply want to listen to high quality stereo music from your computer, all you need is an XDA-1 (or the new XDA-2) plus a pair of powered monitors and you're all set. You can't get much simpler than that and it will sound really good. (Or, if you prefer, add a small amp and a pair of passive speakers).

3.5mm to RCA to mini might sound OK, you should try it and see. You may or may not find a need for the DAC. Really, it depends on how good your soundcard is (in your computer that would do the DAC duties). If it's a laptop or integrated sound on the mobo, then I would say optical out to the DAC would be the way to go in your situation.

I own the USP-1 Pre and the XDA-1 DAC myself. You could find a used XDA for less than $200. It has some limitations, but overall I'm quite pleased with it.

You want to keep it simple? Then really an AVR or stereo receiver would be simpler than separates for DAC and amp. Maybe not smaller, but simpler for sure.

 

[KeithL]

How big a step up IS an external DAC?

In all fairness, I think that really depends on what you mean by "huge improvement" and what your priorities are. What you say about the huge disadvantage that sound cards are at because they are buried inside a computer is entirely true, but I think it goes beyond that. Once you get past the serious nastiness in the way some sound cards sound, there are further subtle but clearly audible improvements to be had in sound quality.

Now, obviously, we all have our own scale of what matters and how much and, as they say, "your mileage may vary". (Let me say up front that I care about bass and treble extension, but I also care about clarity, and voices sounding like real human voices, and that somewhat vague property that makes good recordings of cymbals played on good DACs sound like real cymbals instead of aluminum pie tins.)

To me, it's pretty obvious that Fiio"s $59 external headphone amp and DAC is a step up from all but the top sound cards, as is something like the Dragonfly or the Headstreamer. When I listen to them next to each other, I can hear the difference right away. (And we're also talking about how well it works as a headphone amp - which is something sound cards aren't that good at.) Likewise, I can hear an obvious step up from either of those to the XDA-2.

Would I cringe if I walked into a room where any of those others was playing? Probably not. And I probably wouldn't cringe at the sound of quite a few decent sound cards. However, the difference between them and a good DAC is quite noticeable to me... and, yes, I would notice if someone had replaced my XDA-2 with a good sound card (or a Dragonfly).

It's true that some people probably wouldn't notice the difference (or wouldn't think it's worth the extra money), but you won't know if you're one of them or not until you try. [I still remember, years ago, when I bought my first expensive DAC to see how it sounded next to my $500 CD player - which sounded just fine to me. The DAc alone was about $1000, and I really didn't expect to hear THAT much difference... but it had a 30 day return option. Yeah, it sounded waaay different, and I ended up keeping it.]

Power is overrated: In more ways than one

DACs are over-rated if you are expecting a huge improvement vs. a good sound card. IMO, the beauty of a DAC is that it is really an out-board sound card. That removes it from the noisy environment inside the tower where it is sharing power supplied from the same transformer that supplies all the other parts. That also makes it much easier to swap when I get a new computer, or when the computers are no longer taking PCI cards, then my DAC will still work by using the outputs from the MB audio.

 

[Hostility]

thanks for all the replys. I am going to set it up with my y splitter cable for now, (can only buy 1 thing at a time and i still need speakers). But i am going to keep my eye open for some deals on a dac!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

There is a lot of variation in how good the DACs inside various pre / pros sound, and pre / pros have a lot more going on inside them than simply being a DAC. (A pre / pro is really more like a computer WITH a DAC than just a DAC.)

When you have surround sound stuff to decode, you need all that processing power, but when you just want to listen to pure stereo music it does tend to alter the sound to some degree. Better pre / pros offer some sort of "direct" mode that shuts off most of the processing for when you want to listen to just pure stereo music (but be careful - some have modes called that which don't bypass the processing).

A separate DAC specializes in just doing stereo music, and sometimes the difference can be dramatic (of course it all depends on what you listen to, how good the rest of your system is, how much you care, and how good your pre / pro is. Honestly, though, a very good separate DAC will almost always sound better than a very good pre / pro when playing simple stereo music. (Also remember, though, that the pre / pro probably has some useful EQ and room correction features, which a purist DAC will NOT have.)

I guess everyone has an opinion.

The Audio Critic and all their audiophiles, engineers, and PhDs would say that DACs have matured so much now that they don't make any significant difference at all.

And most of the DACs I've seen have great specs like SNR of -115dB or better and THD of < 0.05% or better.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Unfortunately, the sound cards in most computers are pretty sad. Part of that is because many of them are simply just an afterthought, but another part is that even a decently designed sound card is at a huge disadvantage because the inside of a PC is a very unfriendly place for sensitive audio circuitry (lots of digital noise, dirty power, poor grounds). In most cases, a separate DAC is a major step up.... really.

I would also disagree that an A/V receiver is simpler; that depends on what you're aiming for. If you simply want to listen to high quality stereo music from your computer, all you need is an XDA-1 (or the new XDA-2) plus a pair of powered monitors and you're all set. You can't get much simpler than that and it will sound really good. (Or, if you prefer, add a small amp and a pair of passive speakers).

I've tried the Asus Xonar sound card a while back. I think it cost me like $300. I wanted Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA and the Asus was the very first card to offer. The sound from the $300 Asus Xonar card DAC, which I believe was a flagship Burr-Brown, didn't sound any better than my cheap $200 Denon AVR.

The key here is volume level match. Even a 1dB higher volume will give a significant advantage to the louder DAC.

I just don't trust the PC to process any sound. I want my AVR or pre-pro to do all the decoding.

 

[cpp]

What DAC were you using before?

The ASUS DAC in this audiophile sound card I installed in my PC and even the DAC in my Denon 4311,. Like Keith noted, it's for 2 chl stereo music not mutil-channel.

Hey keith, I will be up your way at Christmas. My brother just purchased a home 1.5 miles from Natchez Trace & Leipers Fork.

 

[slipperybidness]

I've tried the Asus Xonar sound card a while back. I think it cost me like $300. I wanted Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA and the Asus was the very first card to offer. The sound from the $300 Asus Xonar card DAC, which I believe was a flagship Burr-Brown, didn't sound any better than my cheap $200 Denon AVR.

The key here is volume level match. Even a 1dB higher volume will give a significant advantage to the louder DAC.

I just don't trust the PC to process any sound. I want my AVR or pre-pro to do all the decoding.

But...the Asus Xonar will almost certainly sound better than any commodity soundcard, and I would give a large wager that it sounds better than ANY mobo integrated sound. One of the key factors in favor of the Xonar is that the electronics are shielded.

I am absolutely not surprised that you couldn't tell any difference b/w external DAC and AVR DAC. As you said, it is a mature technology and any current (good) DAC is going to have more similarities than differences with any other DAC. Same as expected from SS amps.

I think outboard DACs still have a place in audio, but certainly not for the majority of those in this hobby. 1) For those of us with analog-only pre, then we need a DAC to hook our computer to it 2) I consider the DAC as a more permanent fixture in my system than a temporary computer sound card.

Your comment "I just don't trust the PC to process any sound" is short-sighted. How did you suppose that modern recording studios and movie production studios process the sound to create the discs? Obviously with a PC (or Mac).

 

[KeithL]

If this was five years ago, I'd probably be arguing on your side I'm a big fan of Peter Aczel (TAC), and I'm usually inclined to agree with him (especially about things like cables), but in this case I can't. When I first started at Emotiva (a bit over a year ago), I brought my then-favorite Benchmark DAC1 - which I would certainly have considered to be one of those "modern generation" of DACs whose specs are way above anything that's worth improving on - in to the office; several of us listened to it against the old XDA-1.... and, yes, we matched the levels quite carefully (and the XDA-1 is also very flat, very quiet, and has very low distortion). Not to belabor the point, but the difference was obvious, to anybody who walked into the room, in two seconds flat, with almost any program material. The XDA-1 sounded "airier", it sounded like it had more high end; things were actually in different places IN the sound stage, and the sound stage itself was narrower with the Benchmark. One person present described it as "sounding like you were in a different ROOM". Since then I've collected a few more DACs, and I can say with absolute confidence that many of them sound quite different from each other (and many sound quite similar). For all I know, the Benchmark may be more accurate, or maybe not, but there's no question that there IS a major difference between them.

There's certainly room to question which is better, and whether the differences are important or not (or worth extra cost), but they clearly do exist. [My personal opinion is that they have something to do with the digital filters, which affect transients in time, and so can be different in ways that don't show up on traditional tests.... but I don't think anybody has done enough testing to say whether that's what's really happening or not.]

Another thing (which certainly makes sense) is that the differences seem to depend on the source material and what you're listening on. A good friend and I were listening to our new XDA-2 today - flipping the sample rate converter on and off - and playing a reissue of an old Herbie Hancock album at 192k. [Now, I'm one of the first people to agree with Aczel that we shouldn't be able to hear any difference between 96k and 192k - but there was. Interestingly, neither of us could hear any difference using my AKG 702 headphones, which I would say have a pretty good high end, but it was very clear on my little Airmotiv monitors with their air-motion tweeters.]

Now, I'd not at all sure precisely what the difference was, or even which was "more right", but we both agreed that the cymbals sounded better with the SRC off, but my buddy was equally certain that the sax sounded more real with it on.

Someone (I think Einstein) is credited with saying something like "Make everything as simple as you can - but no simpler". In this case, I don't think the discussion is over. If you get the chance, listen to the XDA-2 (or an XDA-1, or a Schiit Bifrost), and then listen to a DragonFly, on a system or a pair of headphones with good high end; I'll bet you hear the difference pretty quickly. If not, then buy the cheapest one..... just don't be foolish enough to make the decision without listening for yourself.

I guess everyone has an opinion.

The Audio Critic and all their audiophiles, engineers, and PhDs would say that DACs have matured so much now that they don't make any significant difference at all.

And most of the DACs I've seen have great specs like SNR of -115dB or better and THD of < 0.05% or better.

 

[KeithL]

Just call ahead if you want to stop by and listen to whatever we have hooked up that day ... or if you want to hear anything in particular.

The ASUS DAC in this audiophile sound card I installed in my PC and even the DAC in my Denon 4311,. Like Keith noted, it's for 2 chl stereo music not mutil-channel.

Hey keith, I will be up your way at Christmas. My brother just purchased a home 1.5 miles from Natchez Trace & Leipers Fork.

 

[KeithL]

I've never listened to that one, but the new Xonar Essence external box gets pretty good reviews (I haven't personally heard it either). I've heard a few internal sound cards that sounded decent (there was a $29 Sound Blaster a while back that was quite good), but I've never heard one that was really good. For starters, none of them ever sound like they get anywhere near the 90+ dB S/N that they all seem to claim lately.

Honestly, not being able to hear the difference between a $300 computer sound card and a cheap A/V receiver could be interpreted to mean several different things.... perhaps the sound card simply wasn't that good; perhaps the DAC in the Denon wasn't all that bad; or perhaps what you were playing both through wasn't good enough to let you hear the difference. Honestly, I've heard lots of cheap equipment that sounded pretty darn good (let's say 9 out of 10); sometimes it's just a question of what you're willing to pay for that last 10%.

Since you mention the chip in the Xonar by name, I will make a point of suggesting that anybody serious about DACs should AVOID paying too much attention to the DAC chip itself. Any $2 DAC chip these days is capable of really excellent sound; and the most expensive (the Sabre32) is capable of really lousy sound; it's the surrounding circuitry, especially the clocks and the analog circuitry, that make the biggest difference. While it's true that using one of the few remaining really poor chips can be a problem, there simply aren't many "unforgivably bad" DAC chips out there any more.

I've tried the Asus Xonar sound card a while back. I think it cost me like $300. I wanted Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA and the Asus was the very first card to offer. The sound from the $300 Asus Xonar card DAC, which I believe was a flagship Burr-Brown, didn't sound any better than my cheap $200 Denon AVR.

The key here is volume level match. Even a 1dB higher volume will give a significant advantage to the louder DAC.

I just don't trust the PC to process any sound. I want my AVR or pre-pro to do all the decoding.

 

[PENG]

I'm a big fan of Peter Aczel (TAC), and I'm usually inclined to agree with him (especially about things like cables), but in this case I can't.

There are people who believe in cables making the kind of difference you talked about DACs. The thing is, you hear what you hear, others hear what they hear, there are enough people on each side. The funny thing is, even without levels perfectly matched, people have hard time telling those claimed obvious difference when they can't see the equipment.

 

[ImcLoud]

thanks for all the replys. I am going to set it up with my y splitter cable for now, (can only buy 1 thing at a time and i still need speakers). But i am going to keep my eye open for some deals on a dac!

Keep your eyes out for an xda1 on ebay, they usually sell for around $190 or so in perfect condition with the original box. I use my xda1 as a preamp for my 2.2 system, I am very happy with how it turned out. I was actually going to go with a USP-1, but the emo rep talked me into the more simple audio path and it turned out great... {I could have spent more than double that day but him being honest gave me a better result and at less cost, now I own 7 emo amps, 2 processors, an erc2, the xda1, and I just bought a UMC200 today... used my upgrade coupon }

I go from a pure I20 dock {$85} to the XDA1 with emos .5m balanced connectors to an xpa2 {with a custom made xlr 80hz high pass between the dac and amp}, then I have the left and right rca outputs from the dac plugged into my left and right subs. It worked out awesome, I have an ipad 2 hooked to it, so I can simply say "siri, shuffle dave mathews band" and it will do it... I am on the fence between buying the xda2 or the USP1 for my other 2.2 system, but leaning towards the usp-1 on this one to have something different...

I also own a few audioengine d1 dac's, which work well for my PC's, but the xda1 sounds better than them hands down, and I have also tried the XDA1 vs the pure i20s internal dac and there is a noticeable difference between the 2 {and a lot of people have high regards for the pure dac, but the xda1 opens everything up, more noticeable in the mid / high ranges}