Bi-amping with an external amp

[Mad Norseman]

Re: Yamaha RX-V1900 A/V Receiver

I need some advice concerning bi-amplification using an external amplifier (instead of the receiver’s own internal amplifiers), using the Yamaha RX-V1900 A/V receiver in a 5.2 system.

What I want to do is use an external 5-channel power amplifier to bi-amp the front speaker pair, (using 4 of the 5 external amplifier’s channels), and also to drive the center channel speaker with the remaining single external amplifier’s channel.
I would then use the RX-V1900’s amplifiers to only power the two surround channel speakers.

How would I set this up using the RX-V1900?

I put this question directly to Yamaha’s online tech support, but was told that the bi-amplification option was only available when using the receiver’s own internal amplifiers. But this Yamaha tech guy sounded like he really wasn’t confident in his answer, and was unsure, so because he was unsure I think he just defaulted to the easiest answer, the “I don’t think you can Bi-amp using external amplifiers” answer.

Some background:
1) The manual clearly states that when the receiver is set to bi-amp mode, then the Front L/R channel signals are output at both the Front L/R & Surround Back L/R speaker terminals.
2) Elsewhere, this same manual also clearly states that the pre-out jacks always output the same signals as the corresponding speaker terminals.
3) And NO WHERE in the manual does it state that the bi-amp mode is only when you’re using the receiver’s own internal amplifiers.

Given that, then when the receiver is set to bi-amp mode - why wouldn’t it also be possible to send those Front channel L/R signals (via BOTH the Front & Surround/back pre-out jacks) to four channels of an external amplifier to bi-amplify two Front speakers?

Has anyone tried to do this?, or have any direct experience doing it this way?
Or was the Yamaha tech guy correct that it can’t be set up this way? (Frankly, I don’t know why it wouldn’t be possible!).
Any practical experience, or definite knowledge about this would be greatly appreciated!

 

[avnetguy]

I've never set up a bi-amp configuration but your use of the connections sounds right to me.

Of course with a good external amp I don't know if you're notice any difference compared to running the fronts just off two of the external amps alone.

Steve

 

[PENG]

2) Elsewhere, this same manual also clearly states that the pre-out jacks always output the same signals as the corresponding speaker terminals.

If that's what it says then I would say the tech support guy is correct. You can still bi-amp using splitters, there is no problem at all.

 

[timoteo]

I have an Emotiva XPA-5 & called Emotiva to ask about doing this exact thing. I was told that i wouldnt gain any audible improvement. I already figured i wouldnt but wanted to check. I would recommend you just get a 3 channel amp or get the 5 channel & not use the amps in the Yamaha. Thats what i do. I bypass my receiver & use the 5 amps to power all 5 speakers.

Biamping can only make a notable improvement if you have each amp with a seperat power source. Even then it debatable. Biamping is more of a marketing scheme than anything else.

 

[mjcmt]

If your receiver has 5.1 output can you use the LRC output to your external amp? Of course using a split RCA for the LR speakers to separate the amps.

Will your AVR allow you to shut off all the speaker channels except your surround speaker output. If not keep the 5.1 speaker output on, but only hook up your surrounds to the AVR and still use the 5.1 rca analogue output to your multichannel power amp for your LCR.

 

[j_garcia]

If you have a solid external amp that has enough power for the levels you are after, there's no point in biamping. In other words, just get a big enough amp for your needs.

 

[Mad Norseman]

All good suggestions - and much appreciated!
But, I's still like to know if the Yamaha online tech support guy was correct or not (I think not). Let's assume that I still want to do this 'bi-amping with an external multi-channel amp' set up regardless if it would result in any audible benefit.
Given that, could it be done?
Like I typed, the manual says the pre-outs output the same signals as the speaker terminals. It also says the 'back/surround' speaker terminals output front channel signals when the receiver is set to bi-amp mode. So wouldn't that also be true at the 'back/surround' pre-outs??? I'd think so. The tech guy was really waffling around, but ended up saying "no" (not convincing).
So all practical questions aside - is it possible?
Has anyone esle done this?
Thanks to everyone for your thoughful answers up to now though!).

 

[j_garcia]

The only thing we'd need to know is if the receiver outputs simultaneously via the speaker outs and the preamp outs. If it does, and I'd suspect it does, then yes it will work.

The whole "back surround" portion you can ignore, since that is only talking about biamping using the INTERNAL amps for the rear surrounds. Setting the receiver to biamp mode will be of no benefit to you and has no relationship to using an external amp to biamp.

 

[PENG]

I's still like to know if the Yamaha online tech support guy was correct or not (I think not).

In your first post, you said:

Some background:
1) The manual clearly states that when the receiver is set to bi-amp mode, then the Front L/R channel signals are output at both the Front L/R & Surround Back L/R speaker terminals.
2) Elsewhere, this same manual also clearly states that the pre-out jacks always output the same signals as the corresponding speaker terminals.
3) And NO WHERE in the manual does it state that the bi-amp mode is only when you’re using the receiver’s own internal amplifiers.

It is the word "always", that made me think the support tech was correct.

Let's assume that I still want to do this 'bi-amping with an external multi-channel amp' set up regardless if it would result in any audible benefit.
Given that, could it be done?

Of course you can, as I said, and John did too, you can do it regardless of whether the support tech is right or wrong. If he was right then you have to use RCA splitters to split the signals for the two channels. If he was wrong, then you wouldn't need splitters because you could just use the surround back preouts.

Like I typed, the manual says the pre-outs output the same signals as the speaker terminals.

Well, this is different than what you quoted in your first post. Now if the word "always" is not really there in the manual, then you could be right and that means the support tech guy may be wrong. In that case it is quite possible that when the RX-V1900 bi-amp mode is set, the surround back preouts "may" in fact output the front L/R signals.

It also says the 'back/surround' speaker terminals output front channel signals when the receiver is set to bi-amp mode. So wouldn't that also be true at the 'back/surround' pre-outs??? I'd think so.

Not necessarily but as explained above, if the manual did not have the word "always" then my educated guess is that your assumption is reasonable.

I hope it is clearer this time and I suggest you just go ahead and try it. There is a good chance you are right, assuming the word "always" in your first post was a typo of your own and not in the manual.

 

[lsiberian]

Biamping can only make a notable improvement if you have each amp with a seperat power source. Even then it debatable. Biamping is more of a marketing scheme than anything else.

I use the same amps for bi-amping. The main benefits of biamping come when it is implemented in the speaker design/building phase. For a completed speaker build or design it's is normally unneeded.

 

[mjcmt]

Given that, could it be done?
Like I typed, the manual says the pre-outs output the same signals as the speaker terminals. It also says the 'back/surround' speaker terminals output front channel signals when the receiver is set to bi-amp mode. So wouldn't that also be true at the 'back/surround' pre-outs??? I'd think so.

The only thing wrong w/ using the back surrounds for one leg of the bi-amping is that you initially said 'you wanted the yamaha for the surrounds only'. Try it with your yamaha for the surrounds and your ext. amp for the front 3 speakers. It will not hurt anything.

On the subject of bi-amping. If you ext. amp is better, you may gain better perform using the yamaha for the L&R 'highs' and surrounds, with the external amp for the L&R 'lows' and center channel. The reason is you are using a different power supply from each amp (yammie/ext. amp) and splitting the duty for the 5.1 speakers, therefore taxing each amps ability to drive the speaker load less.

 

[Mad Norseman]

Thanks PENG,
Probably the best way to try out this theory is just to go ahead and hook it up after the receiver is set to bi-amp mode, and see if it indeed works that way.
If not, no harm. Then I'd just go ahead and hook things up w/o bi-amping.
But if so, then why not?
If I go ahead and do this, I'll post the results for everyone to see, and get brought up to speed.
Thanks all!

 

[PENG]

Thanks PENG,
Probably the best way to try out this theory is just to go ahead and hook it up after the receiver is set to bi-amp mode, and see if it indeed works that way.
If not, no harm. Then I'd just go ahead and hook things up w/o bi-amping.
But if so, then why not?
If I go ahead and do this, I'll post the results for everyone to see, and get brought up to speed.
Thanks all!

No harm will be done but be careful with your connections such as making sure the jumpers are removed and the polarities are correct at both ends. Expect no audible improvements but you may be nicely surprised.

 

[96cobra10101]

Not an expert in this at all, but, what if he used an active crossover between the Avr and the external amp, assuming he is using 4 external channels.

 

[Mad Norseman]

You typed: The whole "back surround" portion you can ignore, since that is only talking about biamping using the INTERNAL amps for the rear surrounds. Setting the receiver to biamp mode will be of no benefit to you and has no relationship to using an external amp to biamp.

But how do you know that for sure???

 

[j_garcia]

But how do you know that for sure???

I can't be 100% sure without trying it, but I read your manual and it makes no mention of this. The speaker outputs and preamp outputs are separate from each other, so based on this being the case for most other receivers, I'll still say that setting biamp mode for the speaker outputs won't affect the preamp outputs. There really wouldn't be a huge benefit anyway, since you would just use a splitter/y-cable to achieve the same thing. By now, I would have expected you would have found out already.

 

[mclaren]

So did the original poster found out if it works or not ?

I'm in a similar situation and i would like to know (before i buy).

 

[j_garcia]

So did the original poster found out if it works or not ?

I'm in a similar situation and i would like to know (before i buy).

Which part? About the preamp outs? If so, a splitter will solve that problem, so I wouldn't use that as a reason not to purchase.

 

[mclaren]

Which part? About the preamp outs? If so, a splitter will solve that problem, so I wouldn't use that as a reason not to purchase.

The part asking if when in bi-amp mode, it is reflected on the surround back pre-amp also.

I have a Yamaha RX V 2600 and i have a good deal to buy a 5 channel TagMclaren power amp.

As for splitters, i read all bad things about them (destroying the sound stage image).

 

[j_garcia]

As for splitters, i read all bad things about them (destroying the sound stage image).

How is it any different than running them internally through what would effectively be the same thing as a splitter?

I guess I don't understand how exactly a connector would destroy the sound stage?

If it is a good deal and you need it, just get the amp.