Replacing sub in Onkyo HT-S5500

G

g0bez

Audioholic Intern
First post here... a bit intimidated by the investment many of you have made, and then waltzing in here with a new thread about a $400 htiab setup. But, I figured it is worth a shot. Thanks for your patience...

Some background: like most people, I'm on a budget (very small by many standards)... and there's a wife in the picture, so skipping meals to increase this budget isn't an option. I figure the next best thing is to make sure whatever I get now can be upgraded as more money is available.

With that in mind, I am *almost* solidly sold on the Onkyo HT-S5500. Lots of great reviews in terms of sound and quality of equipment (for a htiab setup in this price point) and it looks to be relatively upgradable. The only real complaint I've read about, and the primary source of my apprehension, is the seemingly unnaturally prevalent sub issues. I don't really want to deal with shipping the sub back and forth, etc. with Onkyo if I have an issue with it, so here (finally) is my question:

If this sub does die on me, what are my options (and associated prices) to replace it with one that performs at least as well as the original, if not better?

I'm a bit ashamed to admit that I don't even know how to find out which sub would be compatible with this receiver... :eek: so any of that information would be appreciated as well (even just links to reliable resources). You know... that whole 'teach a man to fish...' type of deal. I'm looking forward to learning!
 
J

Jeff R.

Audioholic General
I would think nearly any sub would be able to match this onkyo sub. You can likely substantially improve on it's performance by spending around $200, there are several good options made by BIC, Premier Accoustics or Parts Express. Since you have a true reciever in this HTIB any sub will be compatible.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Hi there! :)

Don't worry for a second about starting out with a smaller budget and a "beginner" system. We've all been there! I started with an RCA HTiB, myself. Took me all of about 3 months before I was dying to replace it and regretting that I'd bought it in the first place, but that's why you're here, right? To avoid that same type of regret and benefit from the experiences of others ;)

So let's get you started off right, shall we?

As far as HTiB systems go, Onkyo's are almost certainly the best. But I have to say that if it were MY money, and I were just starting out all over again, but with the knowledge and experience that I've accumulated intact, I'd go a slightly different route. Here are a couple of paths for you to consider:

1) One thing that I don't like about the AV Receiver in the HT-S5500 is that it only has Audyssey 2EQ for auto-setup and room correction. 2EQ is very bare bones and does not EQ the bass at all! Bass is where you need EQ the most, so that is a negative. It also has only 4 HDMI inputs. And, as you pointed out, the included subwoofer isn't that great. It's got a lot of distortion.

Getting good bass is very difficult. There are no shortcuts. It takes what it takes, and you can't magically do it for less. But if you are limited by your budget, it's more important to at least get bass that isn't full of crazy high distortion, and is at least somewhat accurate. You'll read a lot about "one note" bass or "boomy" bass. Those sorts of bad sounds happen when a subwoofer resonates really badly. Imagine a rather flimsy box that can easily flex and vibrate. That's what you get with a lot of really cheap subwoofers.

The word "distortion" can mean a lot of things. But the easiest way to understand it is that any recording contains a signal that tells the speakers and subwoofer to play a certain note for a certain length of time at a certain loudness. Any failure to reproduce exactly what the signal says to play is a form of distortion. When you hear a system with very little distortion, it never really sounds "loud". When you turn up the volume, a very low distortion system will just make everything sound "closer". When a fairly small and low power subwoofer - like the one in the HT-S5500 - is being described as "loud" by a lot of people, that's a clear indication that it's got high distortion. It'll sound "boomy" and "muddy" and maybe "one note-y". All ways of saying "distortion" ;)

So what to do?

Well, the first option is to still go for a full 5 or 7 speaker package with a subwoofer, and then combine that speaker package with a better AV Receiver.

For this option, here are the products I would buy myself if I were starting over:

Onkyo SKS-HT540 7.1 speaker package - $250

Denon AVR-1712 AV Receiver - $250

Now, I know I've just bumped you up from a $400 HTiB to a $500 system. And at first glance, it might not look all that different. But there are a few key differences that make this a substantially better system.

To start, even though these are still Onkyo brand speakers, these are not the same as the speakers in the HT-S5500 HTiB. All of the speakers in the SKS-HT540 package are larger and better. The subwoofer has nearly twice the amplifier power and a substantially better cabinet. And you can get the same Onkyo SKW204 subwoofer separately.

The SKW204 sub always manages to bring a smile to my face whenever I hear it :) It's by no means comparable to the $550 and up subwoofers that we commonly recommend around here. But I actually really like recommending the SKW204 whenever someone has less than about $350 to spend on a subwoofer. If you're going to spend less than $350 on a subwoofer, you're far better off spending A LOT less than $350. That way, you can save up much more quickly for a truly great $550 subwoofer, and not waste a penny, while still getting surprisingly good bass from the SKW204 in the mean time. It's a very large difference and upgrade from the subwoofer in the HT-S5500 package.

The Denon AVR-1712 from accessories4less is simply a steal. It includes Audyssey MultEQ XT, which is 2nd only to MultEQ XT32 for auto-setup and room correction. It is an insanely large upgrade from the 2EQ program in the HT-S5500 package. I can't really overstate how much better MultEQ XT can make your system sound.

The 1712 also has 6 HDMI inputs, and better quality amplification for the 7 speakers. What the 1712 lacks are the modern AirPlay, Network Streaming, and iPod features. But you can easily add an AppleTV, Roku or other streaming box, or an iPod dock if you want those features. And having the separate, dedicated box will give you a better interface anyway, so I'm much more of a fan of letting the 1712 handle switching between all of your sources, providing excellent room correction, and powering your speakers really well with good quality amplification.

So this is the best $100 extra you'd ever spend. Better AV Receiver, better speakers, better subwoofer. There's no question about where the extra bit of cash is going ;)

2) Getting all 7 speakers and a subwoofer right away is one approach. The other is to only buy a pair of really good speakers right now, and then save up, and add on the other speakers later when you have the money.

You talked about buying something now that can be upgraded when you have more money. If you already have that goal in mind, then you might want to consider this approach instead. You won't have surround sound right away, but by the time you're done, you'll have way better speakers, and less money spent overall. Rather than shelling out $250 for the Onkyo SKS-HT540 package now, and then slowly replacing all of the speakers over time, you can just start with a single pair of the speakers you'd wind up buying in the future anyway. It's a different approach. It's entirely up to you. I will say though that the SKS-HT540 package really retains its resale value. So if you do decide to buy it, then slowly upgrade, once you are done, you'll be able to sell the SKS-HT540 package and get most of your money back. Or you might find another room to use the SKS-HT540 speakers in ;) Up to you.

If you want to start with just a pair of really good speakers, there's absolutely no better choice right now than the Pioneer 2nd Generation Andrew Jones speakers. The 2nd generation models all end with a "2" in the model number ;)

So what I would recommend would be to start with just a pair of the SP-FS52 Towers . The $99 price is for EACH speaker, so a pair will cost you $200.

Later, you can add the SP-C22 Center speaker and the SP-BS22-LR bookshelf speakers for the Surround speakers. And, of course, a subwoofer - although I do NOT recommend the Pioneer SW-8MK2 subwoofer that is a part of this series. I would point you towards the HSU STF-2 subwoofer that costs about $350, or the even better HSU-VTF-2 MK4 at about $550 . The HSU VTF-2 MK4 at $550 is actually the least expensive subwoofer that I consider capable of "doing it all", by which I mean that it can genuinely play down to 20Hz, it can play loud, and it can do it all while staying accurate and with low distortion. For $350, the STF-2 is very good, but it gives up the super deep 20Hz extension, and it can't play as loud.

These Pioneer speakers are a landmark for low cost, but very good sounding speakers. This kind of sound quality at this price is truly unique and unprecedented. Simply put, these 2nd gen Andrew Jones speakers sound good. Not "for the price". Just plain good. If you throw in "for the price", they are astonishing.

The Denon AVR-1712 from accessories4less remains a "lock", IMO. If you really want AirPlay and Network features, you can pay $50 more for the AVR-1713 , although the 1713 has only FIVE amps, not the 7 found in the 1712. To me, that's not a good use of $50 extra. With the 1712, you can keep all 7 amps, and then use the $50 lower price to get an AppleTV or other streaming box instead ;)

If you really want AirPlay/Network AND 7 amps, you can get the AVR-1912 or AVR-1913 . But these cost more ($320 and $350, respectively) AND they step DOWN to regular Audyssey MultEQ. Remember, the 1712 and 1713 have MultEQ XT. Stepping down to MultEQ isn't the end of the world. Both MultEQ and MultEQ XT will EQ the bass, which, as I said, is where you need EQ the most. But, like I keep saying, the 1712 gives you 7 amps, MultEQ XT AND the lowest price. So you can just use the savings to get an AppleTV. To me, it just makes the most sense :)

I hope that helps! These are certainly the two options I would consider if I were in your position. It's a great time to be starting your home theater journey. I wish I'd had these options and this knowledge when I was just starting out :)
 
ahblaza

ahblaza

Audioholic Field Marshall
FR, I think you just scared the OP away.......:D Nice suggestion though, I don't think your reco could be bettered in that price bracket...;)
 
G

g0bez

Audioholic Intern
@Jeff R. -- thanks for the direct answer, that is good to know if I end up going with this Onkyo setup.

@FirstReflection -- this is truly priceless information. There is a lot to digest (not to the point of scaring me off though!), and while I was on the verge of pulling the trigger on the Onkyo HTiaB, you have given me pause. I really appreciate the thoughtful and informative response!!

At this point, I do not "need" a 5.1 (or 7.1) system (as in, I'm not dead set on having that out of the gate). The benefit of upgrading from nothing is that every upgrade will feel great. With that in mind, I'm going to look really closely at getting just the receiver + pioneer set you referenced. This option also has the 'ease in' factor for my wife. :cool: Having a new setup (of nicer speakers) slowly trickle in over the coming months will likely have less impact than just landing with a full 5.1/7.1.

My preference is to stay clear of the air play/streaming/ipod stuff and just get setup that does what it is supposed to do, and leave those other features to something more suited to it. This distaste for combo items probably comes from back in the college days when my roommate had a TV / DVD combo and when the dvd part broke we didn't have a TV for a couple of months.

I'm going to spend some time this evening mulling over all of this (lunch break is about over...). Again, I can't thank you enough for this fantastic information!
 
ahblaza

ahblaza

Audioholic Field Marshall
@Jeff R. -- thanks for the direct answer, that is good to know if I end up going with this Onkyo setup.

@FirstReflection -- this is truly priceless information. There is a lot to digest (not to the point of scaring me off though!), and while I was on the verge of pulling the trigger on the Onkyo HTiaB, you have given me pause. I really appreciate the thoughtful and informative response!!

At this point, I do not "need" a 5.1 (or 7.1) system (as in, I'm not dead set on having that out of the gate). The benefit of upgrading from nothing is that every upgrade will feel great. With that in mind, I'm going to look really closely at getting just the receiver + pioneer set you referenced. This option also has the 'ease in' factor for my wife. :cool: Having a new setup (of nicer speakers) slowly trickle in over the coming months will likely have less impact than just landing with a full 5.1/7.1.

My preference is to stay clear of the air play/streaming/ipod stuff and just get setup that does what it is supposed to do, and leave those other features to something more suited to it. This distaste for combo items probably comes from back in the college days when my roommate had a TV / DVD combo and when the dvd part broke we didn't have a TV for a couple of months.

I'm going to spend some time this evening mulling over all of this (lunch break is about over...). Again, I can't thank you enough for this fantastic information!
I think that is a very wise decision not going full tilt with a 5.1/7.1 setup. Like you said going from "nothing" to something is indeed an upgrade.:) I did not literally mean scare you off, I was joking with FR (the priceless guy) :D Starting with the Pioneer SF52's is a no brainer IMO, you get them locally at your Best Buy, and like Jim (Zieg) said float them on a credit card for thirty days, don't like them, float them back, nothing lost but some time and effort, I doubt very much you won't like them. AC4L is a great ID company to deal with especially for receivers, the Denon's mentioned are a good reco, and especially if you don't care for the air play etc. stuff, you can get the best receiver you can afford, paying attention to what matters most, amp section (power), DSP and RC Audyssey (RC, not a big deal to me, but to most it is). Owning the 52's I would recommend not skimping on the sub, the 52's deserve it. The sub will probably be the last component to be upgraded, so get the most you can afford, a good sub takes your mains from good to great. So the first stop is Best Buy, then AC4L followed by HSU or any good ID brand, that's the good thing about your main speakers and receiver, they will pair well with almost any good subwoofer. Good luck and enjoy your journey, don't forget to share it with us, we're here for you..;)
Cheers Jeff
 
ahblaza

ahblaza

Audioholic Field Marshall
Did you notice the weight on the tower speakers?:) It is still an interesting deal.

Also at Newegg, the towers have the Energy badge.
Newegg.com - Energy EF-500 Tower Speaker Pair
Wow, no I didn't, 19 lbs :eek: That's the weight of one your VS260's, which by the way seems like the bargain, high value performance BS of this decade, I have been following all of the reviews of the 260's, not one negative, what a rare find at $500, all gone though, I looked everywhere. :mad: Well that's water over the dam. Yeah I saw the towers with the Energy badge, good call, Newegg $129 :) WWStereo $599...:rolleyes: The Jamo's are still decent though for that price, I think... I saw this at Monoprice, Cnet gave an enthusiastic thumbs up, (credible review?) I wish I could hear those 260's :D
For only $78.30 each when QTY 50+ purchased - 5.1 Channel Home Theater Satellite Speakers & Subwoofer  - Black | IR Active Shutter 3D Glasses
Cheers.........
 
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g0bez

Audioholic Intern
So... I was feeling pretty distracted at work, and ended up browsing my local BestBuy online for clearance / open box items (I'm not opposed to finding deals like this as long as it is going to fill my needs and not break down on me) and found a Yamaha RX-V671BL for $250 (I tried to include the link, but apparently I don't have permission yet). It has great reviews from what I've read (cnet, users around the internet, etc., if they can be trusted), so if I get that paired with the two SP-FS52's I'm sitting at ~$450.

Impatience is starting to nip at me as the weekend (read: relaxing in front of the TV) is coming close, so I'll have to be careful not to jump into something too quickly here. My evening is open though, so I'm planning to head over to BestBuy to take a look and, more importantly, listen. I'll be sure to only buy things that I can take back. :cool:

From what I've read, room size plays a lot into sound, too, so I imagine something that sounds great in the store can sound very different at home... maybe it would help kill my impatience to just have something to play with over the weekend!
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
What is your actual budget?

I bought the Jamos for my sister they sound pretty good. Especially for the price...
 
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g0bez

Audioholic Intern
I really need to keep it in the $400 ball park :eek: but I can probably do $450. That jamo setup looks nice, but is 5.0 and I think at this point (after some consideration before listening to actual setups) I'm leaning toward a 2.0 with a +.1 (hopefully) soon after for my initial setup... and then finish out the 5.1 when I can.

I dunno... I feel like I've read so much, and there are so many options, it is pretty overwhelming and I don't even know what anything actually sounds like in my entertainment room yet. I think I almost just have to jump in somewhere and see where it goes. Part of the pressure is that money *is* a factor, so I think I'm worrying about "getting it right" at the best price possible, but I guess that's where a good return policy comes in. If I get it home and it *isn't* right, I just take it back.
 
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g0bez

Audioholic Intern
guh... I just found the Jamo 5.0 on Amazon for $170. With free shipping and no tax, I don't know how I can pass that up!

I'm still headed to BB to get some listening in under my belt... we'll just have to see how this all pans out!
 
ahblaza

ahblaza

Audioholic Field Marshall
That reminds me of an old KLH system that I had years ago, it gave me indigestion.:)
I have to remember that the next time I decide to review something, you shouldn't have eaten before listening.......:D
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Cheapest good receiver at a4less.(very reputable dealer)

DENON AVR-591 5.1 Channel Home Theater Receiver | Accessories4less

I found a deal on Newegg for a budget Energy set(reputable and solid speakers)

Newegg.com - Open Box: Energy PS500 5CH Home Audio Speaker System

The Energy speakers I've heard have been exceptional and you'd have a full set you could upgrade on later. I'm not saying these are as good as the CF series, but certainly they'd be better than Onkyo speakers.

I've never found good speakers in a best buy, but maybe that's the area.
 
S

strobeman

Audiophyte
Pioneer SP-FS52 and Denon AVR-1712

I just purchased a pair of the Pioneer SP-FS52's yesterday at Best Buy due to reading good things about them on this forum. I have yet to hook them to anything and try them. The store demo setup was so bad, I couldn't tell anything about them, so I just bought them as I have 30 days to make up my mind.

It's been 15+ years since I bought a new receiver so I'm wondering if the mentioned Denon 1712 refurb in this thread can be used with the FS52's and a not yet purchased SP-C22 center as a 3-channel setup (is there a setting for this on the menu?) until funds are available to finish up with rears and a sub for 5 speaker set to be used in a bedroom. I know this Denon is a 7.1 but I don't have to use it as a 7.1 or do I?

Thanks for any insight on this, as I'm not up to speed on this new stuff. Up until last week I still had a CRT TV.
 
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g0bez

Audioholic Intern
@lsiberian -- thanks for the tips. I'll have to take a look at that DENON AVR-591 and compare against the others I'm looking at. That is ~$100 less than the ones I’ve currently short-listed, which I could then shift a bit more cash over to the speaker side of things (or save it for the sub, etc.)

Best Buy had pretty poor options for listening... I could swear they used to have a listening room with different sets. Now there are just various setups scattered around with their TVs. It is pretty obvious what they are there to sell.

So I also went to the local Fry's -- high prices, but they had a decent listening room, which is what I was after.

I did get to compare the soundbar/sub to the 2.1 to the 5.1 setups (and one 7.1)... and I do not know how they get away with charging $450 for the sound bars and calling them 'virtual 5.1' or 7.1!?! Even as cheap as I'm going, I know I'm going to have way more sound for my dollar. There is simply no comparison. Neat technology, but no comparison.

Anyhow, from this listening tour, I did learn that I'm a 5.1 kind of guy... I *really* liked the theory of starting at 2 or 2.1 and went in 95% sure that was the way I would go, but after listening, I'm pretty sure I'd sit there and itch for that surround when it wasn't there. So in reality, I think I'd buy myself more time by going with either the $170 Jamos on Amazon or the Onkyo SKS-HT540 for $199 on Amazon, paired with the $250 Denon 1712 (or one of the other ones in that range that I'm trying to get a deal on) and all said I'm in for just $420... This is good.


Thanks everyone for your advice! I started this process feeling really lost, and even though there is still tons to learn, now I feel like I'm making a much more informed choice here.

Now I just have to put in some orders, and wait for everything to arrive!! :cool:
 

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