TAD 2201 Speakers

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Look for "Digital Clipping"

It's pretty much the same thing as amp clipping, except this is done by the sound engineer. They compress the track and then make it soooo loud the waveform clips.

Yes it does. Except for a few tracks. 15, 19, & 20 have good DR and do not clip.

I see. So this DRC is not a distortion by way of "hiss" or "static" or "popping" noise, but by way of "omission" - loss of the dynamic range (extreme quiet passages + extreme loud passages). The goal of this DRC is to increase the volume of the quiet passages to match the loud passages; instead of the range of 40dB to 100dB, the range is now 85dB to 100dB.

I use DRC on my karaoke to get better volume and to reduce the "distortion" sounds of "static" and "popping" noise from speakers.

Honestly, DRC doesn't bother me that much.

I kind of hate those quiet 40dB volume. I prefer the entire song to be 85dB-100dB.

I prefer the Yo-Yo Ma version of "The Mission" (which uses DRC) over the original soundtrack, which doesn't use DRC.

Tracy Chapman sounds great w/o any DRC.

I guess if it sounds great, it sounds great, I don't really care if the sound engineers use DRC.

 

[monkish54]

The goal of this DRC is to increase the volume of the quiet passages to match the loud passages; instead of the range of 40dB to 100dB, the range is now 85dB to 100dB.

Kinda, but not really. The goal isn't to eliminate quiet passages, it's to make the entire track as loud as possible. They raise the level of the entire track to meet the peaks. Then they raise the level some more. The problem is that the information that was in those peaks isn't there anymore. It's the same level as everything else and it sounds WAY different..not in a good way. Watch the 2 min video I linked. Too much DRC, & intentional clipping are not things you want in a recording.

85-100 would be pretty good DR. It's more like 95-100db for most recordings today. :O :O

Consider it a gift that you like it. I can't enjoy any music with too much DRC. 3/4 of my collection has been stripped because they sound lifeless and dull.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

85-100 would be pretty good DR. It's more like 95-100db for most recordings today. :O :O

Consider it a gift that you like it. I can't enjoy any music with too much DRC. 3/4 of my collection has been stripped because they sound lifeless and dull.

I suppose some moderation goes a long way. No way can I tolerate 95-100dB range either. But it seems like the tracks you mentioned with clipping and DRC on the Yo-Yo Ma/Ennio Morricone album is about 85-100dB on my SPL.

 

[monkish54]

I suppose some moderation goes a long way. No way can I tolerate 95-100dB range either. But it seems like the tracks you mentioned with clipping and DRC on the Yo-Yo Ma/Ennio Morricone album is about 85-100dB on my SPL.

If i'm not mistaken, the Yo-Yo Ma album has fairly good DRC (i'll check a few songs) in the 12-14 range. Which would explain your SPL meter. The only gripe I had with those was the clipping.

Take a look at these:

DR Database

DR Database

DR Database

Look at how little DR they have. :O Average is like 8db. Most of those albums (if not all) will probably be clipped as well.

Try this:

Listen to a track from Adele's 21.

Then listen to a Tracy Chapman track. The difference should be, forgive me guys, night and day.

I was wrong about some of the Yo-Yo Ma tracks. Some of the tracks that I said DON'T CLIP, do. I'll go through the album again.

 

[cschang]

This is a good reference for dynamic recordings as well:
Honor Roll

 

[monkish54]

I went through the tracks again. The DR is between 9 and 12db. One song has 13.

The songs that don't clip are:

16- Moses

20- The Legend of 1900

21 - The Mission [Gabriel's Oboe] (13 DR)

 

[monkish54]

The best album I have ever seen is Diana Krall's Live in Paris. The tracks have a DR between 13-16 and none of them clip. Listen to the Piano in "Fly Me To The Moon", then listen to it in Adele's "Someone like you". It'll make you puke in your soup!

Listen to "Fly.." and then listen to "Someone..." hear how much louder the track is? Hear how the piano doesn't sound NEARLY as accurate?

 

[cschang]

The best album I have ever seen is Diana Krall's Live in Paris. The tracks have a DR between 13-16 and none of them clip. Listen to the Piano in "Fly Me To The Moon", then listen to it in Adele's "Someone like you". It'll make you puke in your soup!

Listen to "Fly.." and then listen to "Someone..." hear how much louder the track is? Hear how the piano doesn't sound NEARLY as accurate?

But that may not all be due to DR or lack there of. The engineer could have done a lot to the sound. Even mic placement could play a roll in that.

 

[monkish54]

But that may not all be due to DR or lack there of. The engineer could have done a lot to the sound. Even mic placement could play a roll in that.

That is most certainly true. In fact, I'd be shocked if Adele's performance was recorded nearly as well as Diana Krall's.

The difference in loudness is certainly due to the DRC.

The piano is really a "who knows" thing. I think it's DRC simply because I have never heard a piano that sounds that bed in any track with decent DR. Pure speculation and I wont pretend otherwise.

What I will do, mostly for shits and giggles, is edit the track myself to a DR of about 8 and see how much different it sounds. That would be a much better indicator of the damages done by DRC.

 

[rext81]

Just to bring this thread back on topic a little bit... ADTG, did you get the TADs from Music Direct?

 

[cschang]

That is most certainly true. In fact, I'd be shocked if Adele's performance was recorded nearly as well as Diana Krall's.

The difference in loudness is certainly due to the DRC.

The piano is really a "who knows" thing. I think it's DRC simply because I have never heard a piano that sounds that bed in any track with decent DR. Pure speculation and I wont pretend otherwise.

What I will do, mostly for shits and giggles, is edit the track myself to a DR of about 8 and see how much different it sounds. That would be a much better indicator of the damages done by DRC.

The difference in loudness may also not be due to DRC, but simply the level the engineer chose to record the piano compared to everything else in the song.

And if it has been already been mastered you are not going to get back any dynamic range back if you edit the track. Once DR is gone, it's gone, unless you go back to the master tracks and remix/re-master.

 

[monkish54]

The difference in loudness may also not be due to DRC, but simply the level the engineer chose to record the piano compared to everything else in the song.

No, no, it's not the piano that's loud. It's the entire recording. It is very loud.

And if it has been already been mastered you are not going to get back any dynamic range back if you edit the track. Once DR is gone, it's gone, unless you go back to the master tracks and remix/re-master.

Yeah. I want to lower the DR to compare to the original. I will have two copies. The copy I have now with 14 DR and another with a lot less. That way I can compare them.

 

[cschang]

No, no, it's not the piano that's loud. It's the entire recording. It is very loud.



Yeah. I want to lower the DR to compare to the original. I will have two copies. The copy I have now with 14 DR and another with a lot less. That way I can compare them.

OK...got it.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I went through the tracks again. The DR is between 9 and 12db. One song has 13.

The songs that don't clip are:

16- Moses

20- The Legend of 1900

21 - The Mission [Gabriel's Oboe] (13 DR)

Can you actually hear the clipping? What does it sound like?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Just to bring this thread back on topic a little bit... ADTG, did you get the TADs from Music Direct?

Yes. For $1691 delivered.

 

[TLS Guy]

I have just found the time to catch up on this thread.

I'm really puzzled as to why you seem to find such a discrepancy in the specified sensitivity of those TAD speakers.

Either, the spec, is under balled, not a bad trait in a speaker manufacturer.

Or the speaker actually has more forward energy than the other speakers. How do they sound in an adjacent room?

Or the frequency response is not as smooth as they claim in the graphs, and there is excess energy in a region where the ear is more sensitive, which means the mid range to a large extent.

I would like to know if the sound stage is forward of some of the others, the ATCs for instance, and the B & W 802s.

I know the 802s and they are just a hair forward for my liking.

If for instance those TADs have a sound filed forward of the 802s, I bet those speakers are not as neutral as you think and your enthusiasm will wane over time.

So I'm very interested in a more critical evaluation, compared to the other fine speakers.

An excellently balanced speaker should have a sound stage behind the plane of the speakers, without cheating with a smiley.

A forward sound stage however minor is always indicative of a problem. The slight forward sound stage of the 802 I'm certain is due to slight problems at the upper end of the mid range driver and integration with the tweeter.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I have just found the time to catch up on this thread.

I'm really puzzled as to why you seem to find such a discrepancy in the specified sensitivity of those TAD speakers.

Either, the spec, is under balled, not a bad trait in a speaker manufacturer.

Or the speaker actually has more forward energy than the other speakers. How do they sound in an adjacent room?

Or the frequency response is not as smooth as they claim in the graphs, and there is excess energy in a region where the ear is more sensitive, which means the mid range to a large extent.

I would like to know if the sound stage is forward of some of the others, the ATCs for instance, and the B & W 802s.

I know the 802s and they are just a hair forward for my liking.

If for instance those TADs have a sound filed forward of the 802s, I bet those speakers are not as neutral as you think and your enthusiasm will wane over time.

So I'm very interested in a more critical evaluation, compared to the other fine speakers.

An excellently balanced speaker should have a sound stage behind the plane of the speakers, without cheating with a smiley.

A forward sound stage however minor is always indicative of a problem. The slight forward sound stage of the 802 I'm certain is due to slight problems at the upper end of the mid range driver and integration with the tweeter.

The TAD sound very solid even from adjacent rooms. The soundstage appears to be behind the speakers (into the wall). I've listened for a few days now without any fatigue, even with DRC music.

The TAD sensitivity (in room) appears to be 1dB less than the B&W 802D2. I don't think manufacturers' specs are always accurate, especially in-room because every room is a little different compared to anechoic. And most companies are a lot more optimistic about their specs than they should. The ATC are awesome sounding, but they have the lowest in-room sensitivity in my house by far; the KEF 201/2 are significantly louder than the ATC, and the TAD are a lot louder than both.

I'm confident TAD would not fudge their frequency response graph on-axis and 60 degrees off-axis. TAD is a very prominent and respected company.

 

[TLS Guy]

The TAD sound very solid even from adjacent rooms. The soundstage appears to be behind the speakers (into the wall). I've listened for a few days now without any fatigue, even with DRC music.

The TAD sensitivity (in room) appears to be 1dB less than the B&W 802D2. I don't think manufacturers' specs are always accurate, especially in-room because every room is a little different compared to anechoic. And most companies are a lot more optimistic about their specs than they should. The ATC are awesome sounding, but they have the lowest in-room sensitivity in my house by far; the KEF 201/2 are significantly louder than the ATC, and the TAD are a lot louder than both.

I'm confident TAD would not fudge their frequency response graph on-axis and 60 degrees off-axis. TAD is a very prominent and respected company.

So then it is my first alternative, the sensitivity is somewhat under specked.

That is an interesting 8" driver. It is pretty tough to get good results mating an 8" driver to a dome tweeter.

 

[ratso]

someone on Agon is reporting that these have been discontinued.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

someone on Agon is reporting that these have been discontinued.

I think so too. These TAD 2201 and the Pioneer EX speakers have been discontinued; thus the price break. I think these TAD were originally $3200, now you can get them for $1691. The Pioneer EX are 30-40% off as well if you can find them.

I wish the TAD CR1 were discontinued and I could get them for 80% off.